ACCEPTED RUSTIC WINDOWS by Gamwich

[Kuldebar]

SparrowPrince, on 10 Jun 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:SparrowPrince, on 10 Jun 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:SparrowPrince, on 10 Jun 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:SparrowPrince, on 10 Jun 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:SparrowPrince, on 10 Jun 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:SparrowPrince, on 10 Jun 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:

Also I would assume glass was not cheap. Everyone having thick windows would probably not be possible bar Solitude which seems quite wealthy. I'm not a super realist, but I can at least see there are a lot of holes in this redesign from real life and in-game perspectives. By the way we all know why we can't see through the windows, even with this mod. That will never go away.

Well, glass...once the process of making it was discovered, was actually pretty commonplace relatively speaking, a commodity on the open market. The fancier the stuff, the more skill it would take, this includes the thinner and optically superior stuff; it is that which would be expensive and out of reach for most people. But the thick, relatively rough slabs of glass, not so much, coloration is easy once you know what top spike it with, the rest is heat and fire; which even the Nords seem to have been able to harness. In our world, the lives poor and the rich were much further separated in greater degrees then they appear to be in Skyrim, the houses of the "commoners" alone will attest to that observation. Look at the presence of printed books, far more commonplace then they ever were in our world's "medieval" era. This illustrates the danger of trying to correlate too much...it doesn't correlate. 

 

Only broad subjects are best treated to the comparative historical context, you lose all referential value if you start getting into the details, because the details aren't even close to the same. The basic technology of glass making is still glass making, book printing is still book printing; but everything else associated in our real and Skyrim's virtual timelines are differing permutations of history.

 

 

 

 

Caption: Roman glass window panes were probably formed by casting in open moulds; this is one of the earliest surviving examples. It must have come from a house built before the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius in AD 79, which destroyed the cities of Pompeii and Herculaneum.

 

 

 

 

QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWindow glass was used by the Romans as early as the 1st century AD, and is a common find on Roman sites in Britain.

Roman glassmakers employed two differing processes for producing window panes. The earlier method is known as "cast glass", and produces panes of uneven thickness that are fire polished, or "glossy" on one side, and pitted, with a matt finish on the other.

 

The later technique is known as "cylinder glass" and produces panes of even thickness which are glossy on both sides. This method is well-known, being first documented by Theophilus in the 12th century AD, and still being employed on an industrial scale in the 19th century in glassmaking centres such as Charleroi in Belgium. A cylinder of glass is blown, both ends are opened, it is split longitudinally, reheated and opened out flat.

 

However, the precise technique of making cast glass has been lost since the Romans ceased to use it in the 3rd century AD. It has often been suggested that molten glass was poured into a mould in much the same way metals are cast. Some of the arguments against such a method are that it would not reproduce both the forms of the edges and corners and the tool marks seen on original Roman glass.

 

 

 

But before I give the impression this is all about Roman ingenuity:

 

 

 

QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThe Romans did not invent glass—that event occurred around 2200 B.C. in what is now northwestern Iran. In fact, they showed very little interest in glass at all until the last decade of the 1st century B.C. It was then the emperor Augustus decided to concentrate the production of various crafts on the Italian mainland. Glassworkers from Syria, Judaea, and Egypt were imported as slaves, bringing with them experience in both traditional Hellenistic glass-casting techniques and the then novel idea of glass-blowing. By the second quarter of the 1st century A.D., the glassworkers craft had been transformed into an industry, with uniformity of products, a well-organized work-force, and a distribution process which could take advantage of the network of roads and seaways that criss-crossed the entire Roman Empire.

-Glass Production in Roman Times

Edited June 10, 2014 by Kuldebar

[Octopuss]

I wonder which side will give up first :P

I mean, it's almost worth some popcorn, lol.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Octopuss

[Aiyen]

Well my main issue with "realism" arguments are that they simply do not work in a world with magic. Clearly we all have different ideas on how pervasive magic is in TES lore.. since they lore in general is not super good at portraying it. But in all cases then there are not many things in TES lore that show that skyrim is a place of "high magic use". However there is a general theme in TES lore that "back in the old days" then magic was used more then it is today.. hence for older structures etc it stands to reason that magic would be involved in their construction. 

 

I also find that most arguments are based on history where one forget to consider vital factors such as "Where is this place in real world history". 

Example: We had examples of how the romans did windows... well Rome was in a subtropical climate, not in a polar one. So comparing construction techniques from that place to skyrim is kinda.. well it does not really work as a "realism" argument. 

 

Proper compares would be viking architecture to that of skyrim.. and you did not really find many windows there. 

 

Finally if a culture have a tradition for making glass with patterns in them for artistic reasons or prestige then it stands to reason that many other would do it. Even more so if the style was used by the nobility.. since everyone wants to be a bit like the nobility. 

Nothing says that this could not be the case in Skyrim. 

 

oh well this thread is probably not really the place for this sort of semi academic discussion about the finer points of fantasy world realism! :) 

 

 

From a technical standpoint I like the textures and think they are nice enough for extended as well. It is clear that some work went into them, and I do not think it would be a bad mod for STEP to advocate at all. 

[redirishlord]

Also consider this, vanilla Skyrim has display cases with thin panes of glass, so windows similar to modern are apparently possible within the confines of the game's lore. I still like the look & feel of RW, and the thickness does account for the lack of any real transparency (Immersive Interiors).

[Guest]

I wonder which side will give up first :P

I mean, it's almost worth some popcorn, lol.

It always comes down to comparing fantasy with real life. No one can be right or wrong. All I said was I have visited many actual castles and this happened.  If no one cares for that, let's at least agree that they would not build partially underground if the upstairs was well insulated with these thick windows. Right? Who's next? 

 

-Kulde

 

I read all your post but I'm not saying anything because I won't be able to deal with all those text walls and links that would be incoming if I did. 

Edited June 10, 2014 by Guest

[Nearox]

snip

Completely agree with Aiyen. I don't thnk you should extrapolate in any way the real world to Skyrim. There's just no comparison with a fictional world full of magic, shouts, dragons, dwemer, vampires, giant mushrooms and whatnot... If Skyrim was realistic, it would be a rather boring game (to me).

[Kuldebar]

SparrowPrince, on 10 Jun 2014 - 2:02 PM, said:SparrowPrince, on 10 Jun 2014 - 2:02 PM, said:

It always comes down to comparing fantasy with real life. No one can be right or wrong. All I said was I have visited many actual castles and this happened.  If no one cares for that, let's at least agree that they would not build partially underground if the upstairs was well insulated with these thick windows. Right? Who's next? 

 

-Kulde

 

I read all your post but I'm not saying anything because I won't be able to deal with all those text walls and links that would be incoming if I did. 

Well, I'll be brief... :p

 

The Romans were building castles 1400 years before such structures started popping up in Britain and France in what we often call the "middle ages". In fact, ruins of Roman forts and other structures largely inspired the building of stone fortifications that we now consider to be "castles". Technically, true castle building is far older than the Romans, but their keep, towers and moat designs are pretty much what people mean when they speak of "castles".

 

But, by their very nature, castles are not designed with windows in mind; arrow slits, privey-holes and such, but not windows. Some windows with glass treatments were fitted in much later when a castle's military value had been rendered obsolete.

 

You have to look to the palaces and the villas to start seeing such pleasingly aesthetic things as windows.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Kuldebar

[Guest]

There are no windows until you hit important parts like the main hall or the chapels within the central courtyard from the ones I have seen with windows. They obviously would never put them outside. Inside the walls? Yeah. I pretty much am about 8 miles from an actual castle, but I last went to that as a kid because  the dungeon creeped me out.  I do remember it having some very old Tudor houses on site with windows, (lol) athough they were also creepy. Dummies on spinning wheels?... Eugh! On top of that there are very old halls, manors and lot of other stuff. I sometimes forget how much history is around me - but yeah, no thick windows anywhere at all. Never seen a thick glass window like in this mod ever personally, even with all this old-time stuff around me.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Guest

[redirishlord]

I think they fit in a world with glass armor technology, but it sounds like not so much in a Roman influenced historical sense. How that affects inclusion in STEP Extended I don't know, but I like them enough to include them in my personal load order for now (I tend toward promiscuity <edit> in my modding <edit> so who knows what the future holds).

Edited June 11, 2014 by redirishlord

[TechAngel85]

Also I would assume glass was not cheap. Everyone having thick windows would probably not be possible bar Solitude which seems quite wealthy. I'm not a super realist, but I can at least see there are a lot of holes in this redesign from real life and in-game perspectives. By the way we all know why we can't see through the windows, even with this mod. That will never go away.

I've already argued such points and provided links to real world proof.

 

Realism, huh?  Then why are we even looking at glass textures?  Let's find some translucent hide or horn textures for the windows because, realistically, no one living in a medieval time period except the very rich (say the Blue Palace and a few other noble homes or temples, and only the very wealthiest of those) would have glass windows.  Also, I suspect that few of the glass windows currently in castles are original.  It seems unlikely that glass panes, particularly thin ones, would survive that many centuries.  In my experience with older homes, after about a 100 years the glass starts slumping and falling out of the panes.  Now small pieces of leaded glass might fair better, but not some of the larger panes of glass seen in Skyrim (the larger of which I don't think would even have been technologically possible in medieval times, realistically speaking). ;)

 

EDIT: Actually, I think it was the technology to make thin, clear glass that was difficult and expensive.  Romans and Egyptians did have some glass windows, but they were thick, dark, and not at all transparent.  Making glass is an ancient technology, but it took a bit of time before people figured out how to make it thin, flat and transparent.

Again, have already explained that since windows are used commonly Skyrim would have been advanced enough to make "thin windows" everywhere. Here: https://forum.step-project.com/topic/5066-rustic-windows-by-gamwich/?p=85144 Thin glass was first produced around 300AD folks.

 

I wonder which side will give up first :P

I mean, it's almost worth some popcorn, lol.

 

Well my main issue with "realism" arguments are that they simply do not work in a world with magic. Clearly we all have different ideas on how pervasive magic is in TES lore.. since they lore in general is not super good at portraying it. But in all cases then there are not many things in TES lore that show that skyrim is a place of "high magic use". However there is a general theme in TES lore that "back in the old days" then magic was used more then it is today.. hence for older structures etc it stands to reason that magic would be involved in their construction. 

 

I also find that most arguments are based on history where one forget to consider vital factors such as "Where is this place in real world history". 

Example: We had examples of how the romans did windows... well Rome was in a subtropical climate, not in a polar one. So comparing construction techniques from that place to skyrim is kinda.. well it does not really work as a "realism" argument. 

 

Proper compares would be viking architecture to that of skyrim.. and you did not really find many windows there. 

 

Finally if a culture have a tradition for making glass with patterns in them for artistic reasons or prestige then it stands to reason that many other would do it. Even more so if the style was used by the nobility.. since everyone wants to be a bit like the nobility. 

Nothing says that this could not be the case in Skyrim. 

 

oh well this thread is probably not really the place for this sort of semi academic discussion about the finer points of fantasy world realism! :) 

 

 

From a technical standpoint I like the textures and think they are nice enough for extended as well. It is clear that some work went into them, and I do not think it would be a bad mod for STEP to advocate at all. 

The problem I have with the opposition to the "realism" arguments is it ALWAYS...magic. Magic is not the answer to everything. When I think realism for Skyrim, I don't think about our world as much as I think, "what would be 'most likely', for that realm, if it were real." In Skyrim, the only magic users are those that study it (college) or use it for their own gain (necromancers) or mystical creatures. Rarely do you run into an NPC that doesn't fit into one of those three categories. There are no "mage smiths" building materials for the Skyrim world found anywhere in Skryim. So I rule that point out because it doesn't fit unless you "imagine" it to be a possibility. Fact is, there are none of these in Skyrim and no lore points to that conclusion either; therefore, it can be logically ruled out. Find me anywhere in Lore where an everyday object was created by magic for mundane use and I might change my tune on this.

 

As for construction for realism in Skryim, I tend to lean toward England and Scotland....not Roman.

 

"Nothing says that this could not be the case in Skyrim." Nothing says that could be the case in Skyrim either...    See what I did there. Haha!

 

 

Ultimately, think of the "realism" arguments like this... Bethesda artists had to pull their inspirations from somewhere. Unless they are *cough*talented*cough* enough to pull things from their imaginations and apply that to computer graphics, then you can logically deduce (because it's the only thing left after imagination) that the artists used the real world as their muse. From that along, the "realism" argument can be made into a rather valid one. Especially since STEP aims to "improve existing content that increases the consistency of vanilla Skyrim." and provide "content that is consistent with Skyrim and TES lore as established by Bethesda's creators and extrapolated on by the STEP community in accordance with the Imperial Library and the UESP." If the "creator's" inspiration for their content was the real world, then any "realism" argument makes perfect sense, imo.

[Guest]

[EssArrBee]

Scotland and England? How about the Scandinavian countries, since you know that is where Nords are from? Plus, England was conquered by the Romans and never had any central gov't or authority before that. They were pretty much farmers and sheep herders getting conquers over and over again by other invaders until the Romans showed up. 

[DoubleYou]

Since when does Rome, England, Scandinavia, Scotland, or Utopia have any effect on Tamriel? It's a whole other world. The dwemer have robots for Kyne's sake!

[kryptopyr]

The problem I have with the opposition to the "realism" arguments is it ALWAYS...magic. Magic is not the answer to everything. When I think realism for Skyrim, I don't think about our world as much as I think, "what would be 'most likely', for that realm, if it were real."

The problem with your argument for "realism" is that your definition of realism here is not based on the real world, but a subjective sense of what should or should not be real for Skyrim.  So when others feel that something else seems appropriate to the TES world, something that doesn't meet your subjective standards of "realism" then they are suddenly opposed to realism?  It's not like thick textured glass doesn't exist in our world. 

[Kuldebar]

Also, the use of window glass treatments were strictly reduced due to high tax rates assigned on a "per window basis" -such practices severely curtailed the usage of glass windows for significant periods in European history.

 

But, again, none of this matters because of these points:

 

• We know that the denizens of Tamriel have the technological prowess to do many things, some of which aren't even possible for us to do.

 

Example: Teleportation, Dwemer Robots, Soul Energy, etc.

 

• We can also reason that just because in our world's history thin clear glass was used chronologically later than thick cast glass, that doesn't mean it correlates to how window glass in Skyrim would be used.

 

Explanation: Thick glass is protective and durable, thin glass is for aesthetically pleasing designs in safe areas, last I checked everything from the bitter cold to giant spiders and dragons make thin glass less than desirable for a building's structure.

 

• Cost of glass in the ancient or medieval times in our world have no correlation to costs of glass in Tamriel.

 

Example:

 

• Books are abundant you can find them discarded in great quantities,
• Transmutation is an alchemical reality in Tamriel
• Dwemer technology is prevalent and much studied.

 

All of these points and there are many more, serve to break any reasonable correlation with our own world history.