ACCEPTED RUSTIC WINDOWS by Gamwich

[TechAngel85]

I've gone over these extensively in-game and here is my final verdict. They don't fit. I took a bunch of shots but I see no need in posting them because there are already quite a few posted. I'll just post the ones to support my points
 
First the "lore"... Okay I have no idea where the author gets the statement that these are "lore friendly". He makes some nice arguments for his choices in design; however, there is no lore based on the windows and the textures are changed enough from vanilla that I wouldn't even call them "vanilla friendly". The only "lore" we have to go off of is actual design from the real world. So with that in mind, I set off and did some research (Bethesda had to get their inspiration from somewhere). I looked into the history of glass making and its use in windows and discovered a few flaws in the author's statements and design choices. First, most of the windows (going by design) would mostly likely have been "forest glass". This is a mid-quality glass used from 1000-1700 AD. It  is thin (when used for windows), lacks purposeful textures, comes in a variety of colors (based on ash used) and is transparent in most cases.
 
The thickness of glass in this time period doesn't support the author's claims and design direction. Glass was rather expensive to manufacture and in the manufacturing process the glass was spun and blown until it was thin and large and then cut and laid into a sheet where it was then cut into panes. The author claims thick windows that you can't see out of for insulating purposes. This doesn't hold up to facts due to cost and manufacturing process. In fact, thicker glass is a much more modern thing once it was cheaper and easier to make.
 
Window glass from this period also lacked texture. It was expensive to make and nothing in history suggests anything of texture being added. The facts actually state that clear glass was the goal and it what was strived for by glass makers (Romans were the first to be able to make clear glass). Textured glass is a far more modern design and you don't really see it until the late 1800's.
 
The color of this glass is actual to a degree. The glass from this period was forest glass which could have a specific color to it depending on the ash from trees or plants being used to make the glass. However, the colors weren't vibrant. They where light and transparent. Only stained glass (which was even more expensive only really used in churches and king's halls) produced more vibrant colors.
 
With the history of what Bethesda would most likely have used in mind, lets do some analysis:
 
Farmhouses:
VW >> Rustic

VW wins here. Rustic appears to have a texture on it which is a bit odd to look at. There shouldn't be any texture. They should simply appear dirty from never being cleaned.

Solitude 1:
VW >> Rustic

VM wins this one for me again. Rustic clearly adds a texture to the panes and completely changes the design. The new design stands out too much from the rest of the building and screams "notice me" when walking around.

Solitude 2:
VW >> Rustic

VW wins again. Rustic, again, changes the design of these windows, adds texture which shouldn't be there and changes the colors. The glow is also now white, which doesn't make sense because candles are on the warm end of the spectrum. White would only come from modern lights.

Solitude 3:
VW >> Rustic

VW wins. It actually looks like glass. Rustic...idk what that is but is doesn't look like any glass I've ever seen. Rustic also pops out far too much again.

Whiterun:
VW >> Rustic

VW wins here too. Rustic really erks me here because I know exactly what the author did. He used the generic "bubble" texture from Photoshop to make those windows. Have you ever seen a bubbled window from this time period? I certain haven't and Google couldn't find on either. Rustic is completely unrealistic with that texture. Doesn't even look like glass. The iconic yellow is also missing from interiors.

Riften:
VW >> Rustic

VW hands down! Rustic here has a texture (it shouldn't according to history). The author said he tried to make them look mossy and moldy...I'm not getting that. In fact, the texture looks more like a modern designed you'd find in bathrooms for privacy. Not digging it at all. I actually prefer the non-gritty textures from VW as well, but STEP has the gritty being installed. Interiors for Rustic aren't any better and stand out too much like they did at Solitude.

College:
VW >> Rustic

VW again! Rustic...again...what's up with that texture??? It looks awful and looks like someone shattered it and attempted to put it back together. Also, VW here actually looks icy and frozen; whereas, Rustic doesn't.

This deep analysis tells me that Rustic doesn't fit in at all with "lore" or textures and sometime glow. VW might not be perfect but it fits far better. Take all this information in mind and cast your votes. I'll start tallying from this point on since there wasn't any real analysis or opposition posted before this.
 

[DoubleYou]

I agree with you Tech; I vote no.

[Kuldebar]

A good example of how glass-making and glass-work utilization progressively evolved in a real world can be found (where else?) here: Roman glass

 

None of that has any absolute value in correlation to Skyrim's derivative world, but it does establish a reasonable and workable framework; one that is apparent to anyone who recognizes Bethesda's inspiration for the "Empire".

 

Of foundational interest:

 

 

 

 Roman glass production developed from Hellenistic technical traditions, initially concentrating on the production of intensely coloured cast glass vessels. However, during the 1st century AD the industry underwent rapid technical growth that saw the introduction of glass blowing and the dominance of colourless or ‘aqua’ glasses. Production of raw glass was undertaken in geographically separate locations to the working of glass into finished vessels, and by the end of the 1st century AD large scale manufacturing resulted in the establishment of glass as a commonly available material in the Roman world, and one which also had technically very difficult specialized types of luxury glass, which must have been very expensive.

 

Regarding glass usage in windows:

 

 

 

The earliest panes were rough cast into a wooden frame on top of a layer of sand or stone, but from the late 3rd century onwards window glass was made by the muff process, where a blown cylinder was cut laterally and flattened out to produce a sheet

[Aiyen]

Okay I guess I might as well try to provide some counter arguments for you tech... since you went to so much trouble getting this done. 

 

First lore friendly... you are in a world where magic exist.. hence the most cheap way to create glass would probably be to throw a fireball on some sand or something similar. Hence manufacturing cannot really be compared with real history at all. If you did create glass this way then it would most likely not be smooth and flat but rather warped and twisted. In general... there is nothing not lore friendly about this, since all arguments you provide are based on real history in which there are not the same options available. 

 

Also your arguments about textured glass backfires rather badly would you not say... everything in the game is a textured glass vanilla, VW or rustic. 

But again.. magic! 

 

Also as for the colors of the glows... It personally bothers me more that 70% of all windows in the game are not apparent when inside a building... Also you can add imperfections and different materials to the glass crystalline matrix to make it alter the color as it pass through. 

 

In general I find most of your reasoning flawed in this or similar ways. 

 

As for the actual compares.. then in some cases I agree that it depends on which building textures you are using for it to fit in. So most likely not a core mod. However once you have building with parallax and in general more love put into the stonework.. then they become more appealing imo, since then VW have the opposite effect.. they just look too flat and boring. 

[Octopuss]

There should be some reasonable compromise between what's "lore friendly" (imo, that term alone is flawed for at least half the game's content) and what simply looks nice and still unobtrusive.

I know this is STEP and all, but seriously, I think you're taking textures (and even the most minor ones) way too seriously. I mean as long as we're not talking pink walls or some clearly nonsense things, what's the big deal as long as the textures blend into the game world nicely? Surely not everything has to be compared with vanilla?

[Kuldebar]

This screen shot actually shows some sophistication in how RW is reacting to light conditions:

 

 

 

Note: the color of the windows on the left side of the picture, we see a proper yellowish glow, whereas the right portion of the building which is facing toward the bighter aurora laden sky (and not in a shadow of the building's wing) has taken on a more reflective and "shinier" color.

 

None of that is apparent in the VW shot, VW just changes levels of yellow slightly in the sections.

 

Glasswork was prized for its almost mystical qualities of reacting and transforming based on the available light. It appears that RW captures that quality much better than the vanilla or VW versions.

[TechAngel85]

Okay I guess I might as well try to provide some counter arguments for you tech... since you went to so much trouble getting this done.First lore friendly... you are in a world where magic exist.. hence the most cheap way to create glass would probably be to throw a fireball on some sand or something similar. Hence manufacturing cannot really be compared with real history at all. If you did create glass this way then it would most likely not be smooth and flat but rather warped and twisted. In general... there is nothing not lore friendly about this, since all arguments you provide are based on real history in which there are not the same options available.

Most of the game is based on real (or believable) aspects. Your argument for "magic" would mean that mages are sitting around making glass for buildings. That is even more unbelievable since most of the mages in the game are practicing their art for their own gain. Smelters exist in the game and it would take one to make glass (3000 degrees F) just like in the real world. You can't discount real world since most of the in-game manufacturing (leathers, ores, weapons, jewelry) is based on real world practices at the blacksmith. 

Also your arguments about textured glass backfires rather badly would you not say... everything in the game is a textured glass vanilla, VW or rustic.But again.. magic!

Same as above. 

Also as for the colors of the glows... It personally bothers me more that 70% of all windows in the game are not apparent when inside a building... Also you can add imperfections and different materials to the glass crystalline matrix to make it alter the color as it pass through.In general I find most of your reasoning flawed in this or similar ways.

The only thing that will alter the color of the light is the glass color itself. Since the glass attempts to appear clear-ish in Rustic for Solitude, then you'd expect the glow to be the color of the light inside. The rest is covered in the first reply. 

As for the actual compares.. then in some cases I agree that it depends on which building textures you are using for it to fit in. So most likely not a core mod. However once you have building with parallax and in general more love put into the stonework.. then they become more appealing imo, since then VW have the opposite effect.. they just look too flat and boring.

STEP doesn't use ENB or parallax or altered stonework or anything like that so you can't take that into account for this (which is being added into STEP, not your personal mod list. It has to fit STEP.)@Octo,It's taken serious because I take STEP seriously and everything that goes into it will be analyzed. We look at every little detail when it comes to STEP. Most of our clutter mods is proof of this. Btw, some of these don't blend in that well. I believe I mentioned that several times.

 

@Kuldebar,

That theory is a bit flawed because the back side of that building which is clearly in shadow produces some of the same white, brightness from the windows. Blue Palace has the same effect whether it's in shadow or not. Other smaller windows always produce a more yellowish light whether in shadow or not in Solitude.

[Aiyen]

Tech .. just no. The color of light though any material depends on the composition of said material. In a world that has exotic magical materials then it stands to reason that you can create windows that would create any sort of light transition you could wish for. Also who says that every single window is just glass in the common sense.. it could be magically imbued crystal! There are many other options that a real world line of arguments would never be able to account for... that would still be lore friendly! 

 

Also I am not saying that mages are making all the glass on an industrial scale. Rather that it would make sense that when someone orders the construction of a building like say.. the blue palace that some extra attention to detail and exotic materials where put in. So making a mage create some fancy glass is still very much plausible in my optic. 

Essentially I do not discount the real world.. I am saying that you discount options in a world where magic is a factor! 

 

 

Also I am quite aware that this wont ever make it into core... what I am going against is your line of reasoning in why it should not be there! 

Essentially it should not be there because the textures do not fit with the building textures in core and nothing else really.

 

 

All that said then since I am in the process of messing with anything glass and crystal like I have also done windows as part of my testings. 

 

Windows are severely limited in this engine since they are just a glow shader and nothing else... there is no real glass properties possible using just that since that would require an environmental map. But that and glow map are mutually exclusive. 

 

You can switch them around and get env map properties on windows, however this would require some textures that are essentially just one big sheet of glass/crystal rather then multiple ones since even the metal would be affected when using an env. map. The nice thing about a glow map is that you decide which parts of the texture are applied.

 

But I digress too much for this discussion! 

 

To sum up: My vote for core is no since it does not fit the vanilla texture style. 

[redirishlord]

Wouldn't "lore-friendly" glass windows look more like the glass armor in the game? I'm not suggesting the window panes would be of armor quality or desugn, but likely influenced by the armorers techniques and possibly including some of the same materials.

Regardless, I think Rustic Windows are a marked improvement to both vanilla & Visible Windows. I prefer the look, and I think it would be a good addition to Extended &/or Packs, and its what I will personally use. Visible may still be the best choice for Core as it little different from vanilla.

Gamwich is doing great work, these windows are great as are the textures he's done for Gemling Queen Jewelry.

 

Edit: & ninja'd by Aiyen.

Edited June 8, 2014 by redirishlord

[Kuldebar]

TechAngel85, on 08 Jun 2014 - 1:01 PM, said:

 

@Kuldebar,

That theory is a bit flawed because the back side of that building which is clearly in shadow produces some of the same white, brightness from the windows. Blue Palace has the same effect whether it's in shadow or not. Other smaller windows always produce a more yellowish light whether in shadow or not in Solitude.

Let's parse out the comparison on this one shot:

 

 

Visible Windows textures aren't reacting to the particular lighting conditions. RW changes in variability depending on weather/exterior condition whereas VW stays pretty constant with only slight color intensity changes.

[Kuldebar]

 

To sum up: My vote for core is no since it does not fit the vanilla texture style. 

Exactly. But, I'd never use Core because it doesn't coincide with my idea of improving a game; so to me this is all entirely academic.

 

And yes, "lore-friendly" is a word that's prostituted out quite regularly these days, and we should generally acknowledge the very squishiness of such a term.

 

I simply accept the context to mean, "something that can rationally fit into the world without great contradictions or disruption".

[TechAngel85]

I do love good debate!

Tech .. just no. The color of light though any material depends on the composition of said material. In a world that has exotic magical materials then it stands to reason that you can create windows that would create any sort of light transition you could wish for. Also who says that every single window is just glass in the common sense.. it could be magically imbued crystal! There are many other options that a real world line of arguments would never be able to account for... that would still be lore friendly!

Also I am not saying that mages are making all the glass on an industrial scale. Rather that it would make sense that when someone orders the construction of a building like say.. the blue palace that some extra attention to detail and exotic materials where put in. So making a mage create some fancy glass is still very much plausible in my optic.
Essentially I do not discount the real world.. I am saying that you discount options in a world where magic is a factor!

While it is true that a mage could create window glass, I'm just saying that it's very unlikely. Nothing in Skyrim would point to that conclusion besides imagination. Nearly all non-magical materials in the game are produced by blacksmiths/farmers/mills/etc. Furthermore, nothing on the Nexus page points to that or the material being anything but glass. You're really reaching with this one.
 

Also I am quite aware that this wont ever make it into core... what I am going against is your line of reasoning in why it should not be there!
Essentially it should not be there because the textures do not fit with the building textures in core and nothing else really.

I agree with you that essentially it can be boiled down to the textures don't fit in with the surrounding textures that well.

 

Let's parse out the comparison on this one shot:



Visible Windows textures aren't reacting to the particular lighting conditions. RW changes in variability depending on weather/exterior condition whereas VW stays pretty constant with only slight color intensity changes.

You can see some of the same grading on VM, it's just not as apparent. Also you seemed to have completely ignored the part about the back side of the building being in complete shadow and still appearing whitish, not yellowish. The author also never mentions anything about refraction on his textures which is an actual effect so maybe not the best use of words there as it's a bit confusing how a texture and glow produces a refraction without being specifically designed to do so.

 

@Core,

No this would not be put into Core. As for Extended, I debate the reasoning of having two mods that do the exact same thing but just one for Core and one for Extended simply due to different textures and different styles. We currently have no mods in STEP that do this. Should we start? I would say no.

[Kuldebar]

 

 Also you seemed to have completely ignored the part about the back side of the building being in complete shadow and still appearing whitish, not yellowish. The author also never mentions anything about refraction on his textures which is an actual effect so maybe not the best use of words there as it's a bit confusing how a texture and glow produces a refraction without being specifically designed to do so.

 

 

Unless you are talking about some other screenshot, the shadowed section of this portion of the building pictured has been pointed out. The deeper shadows diminish the strength of "competing" light thus the yellow of the interior light source wins out.

 

And refraction is accurately used here, this term isn't tied solely to the mechanical nature of a texture, it refers to an observable effect. In this case, it certainly isn't "reflective" as it definitely appears to be taking on cloudy quality from the brightly lit night sky.

 

Vanilla and Visible Windows loses on these technical points, but since subjective things like preference of looks aren't truly debatable. We can rightly leave the rest of the pronouncements to the realm of what's preferential to CORE while acknowledging that such a thing isn't necessarily tied to technical or truly objective values.

[TechAngel85]

I'm talking...load up the game and walk to the other side of the building:

 

Front >> Back

 

While the back side isn't as white in the windows as the front, it's still in compete shadow as you point out on the side window in the first shot; however, only producing a very faith white-yellow glow. Nothing like that side window. Compare the back side glow to the glow of the windows on the building next to it (not in complete shadow). The build next to it produces more yellow glow outside the shadow than the one building in complete shadow. I really think those are just the glows that the author applied to those larger windows. They're not quite matching up to the glows of the smaller windows.

[DoubleYou]

 

@Core,

No this would not be put into Core. As for Extended, I debate the reasoning of having two mods that do the exact same thing but just one for Core and one for Extended simply due to different textures and different styles. We currently have no mods in STEP that do this. Should we start? I would say no.

Actually, you're wrong on that point for at least two cases: aMidianBorn Caves (SRO in Core) and Ren's HD Shrines (Mystery Modder's HD Shrines). I'm thinking that this mod is better served in a pack rather than Extended, however.