[NSFW] STEP Female Body Replacer

[TechAngel85]

Turning Serana into an Imperial does not have any corroboration in my reading on the subject of her origins. I don't understand the reasoning, and if her race is changed, so should her entire family's be.

 

This alone invalidates the plugin, IMO.

Serana can be fixed with a patch and anything else that was undesirable. Just reversing it back shouldn't be an issue. I would like to ask to author the reason for the change though.

 

Edit: Sent a message asking about the reasons for the changes, asking for a version without the changes to Serana and asking for permission to integrate the ESPs if we decided to go with Windsong.

[CJ2311]

From what I could see, all the NPC esp does is change a select NPCs (hair style, race, skin color, warpaint... that kind of stuff). You could just ignore that part of the mod since all of those changes don't stick to the vanilla NPCs (I find most of them to be a bit weird personally, since I'm used to the way they originally look)

[TechAngel85]

I'll be taking comparison shots soon. Maybe tomorrow.

[kryptopyr]

I looked at the different esp options tonight, and I agree with CJ, WSCO-Better NPCs.esp should likely be ignored by STEP as it appears to simply be making adjustments to the appearances of individual NPCs, and unless these changes are demonstrated to actually be fixes, they probably don't belong in STEP.  I don't see any changes in it that would be necessary for the other parts of the mod to function properly.  This is the file that changes the race of Serana, so simply ignoring this esp would eliminate any concern with whether that change is lore-friendly or not.

 

Likewise, WSCO-OcciMaleVNL.esp only makes changes to the male presets.  This plugin also changes some texture sets for Female Wood Elves, but these changes are merely duplicating the changes already contained in WSCO-OcciFemaleVNL.esp and are therefore redundant.

 

The WSCO-OcciFemaleVNL.esp file seems to be the only file that might contain some necessary records.  I'm not incredibly knowledgeable on these types body part and texture records, but this is what I found:  There are two edits to the "Head Parts" for the Female Dark and High Elf (there is also 1 ITM concerning the female Wood Elf record).  I'm guessing that these edits might be needed in order for the textures included with this mod to function correctly.  The edits to the texture sets for the female Wood Elf (which are also duplicated in the Male file) are likely also needed to achieve the author's intended outcome. 

 

The only other changes contained in the Female file are edits to the female presets (which, like the male preset changes, are non-essential IMO) and an odd change to dunBluePalaceMareMaiden "Sultry Maiden".  I don't know what this record is or which NPC it represents, but as far as I can tell the changes don't seem unreasonable.  I just find it odd that it's the only non-preset actor record that is being changed.  The changes made to this record do overwrite changes made by USKP, but for the most part I doubt that this is anything critical.  However, there is one change made by USKP to the "Sultry Maiden" record which should probably be forwarded; this is the change to the Voice type (MaleEvenToned in Skyrim.esm and WSCO-OcciFemaleVNL.esp; changed to FemaleEvenToned by USKP).

 

Anyway, my opinion is that the NPC and Male esp files are not needed for STEP.  The Female esp may be necessary, but it would be nice to hear from the author as to exactly what the changes in this file do and whether or not it's needed for the textures to work properly.

[TechAngel85]

Thank you both for looking into this for us. I'm of the same option on these ESP files and am still waiting for the author's reply. I think a lot of what the author changes were simply personal choices; however, my compare will show if they NPC changes are actual improvements or simply style changes.

 

On another note, I finally heard back from the author of Mature Skin. There's not a yes or no in making any vanilla / XCE compatible version yet; however, in my opinion I make a very good case for that author to make them. I don't know why so many of these authors are ignoring vanilla Skyrim. Not everyone uses CBBE or UNP mods.

[z929669]

Thanks all for the valuable info regarding the WSCO plugins. I will venture to guess that we could disregard all of them for STEP and get all of this mod's benefits.

 

On another note, I have found some significant barriers in using this mod and XCE with many of the texture replacers out there, and it seems to be related to Phygit's improved feet meshes, which cause a nasty gap when used with any femalebody_1_msn.dds (or probably and body textures) other than those based on Phygit's UV maps (e.g., XCE & WSCO) ... read Phygit's description for details ... the following screen shows how Sporty Sexy Map looks, and this is how most female vanilla body textures look that I have found, including BHB - vanilla :

 

Anyway. Phygit's meshes are absolutely necessary, and they are bundled with both XCE and WSCO. Likewise, each of those mods provide textures that must be based on Phygit's altered body UV maps.

[*]Problem 1: XCE body textures are pretty 'dirty', which is most likely intentional but undesireable, IMHO. (see first versus second compares in these sets)

[*]Problem 2: WSCO body normal is not reminiscent of a strong, Dragonborn female, and the only one that seems to Phygit-feet-compatible is the BHB - XCE compatible version, which I have come to believe is really meant for the CBBE body and not vanilla (CBBE is compatible with Phygit's feet mesh, and the following issues appear when using a CBBE msn on a vanilla body) EDIT: This 'issue' following is most likely a problem on my side and is explained in my post below ... BHB - XCE is fine, and I was unwittingly using a version that I blended with CBBE in the following screens:

 

These problems are resolved by using a mod called "Diverse Muscle Tone" (DMT), which has the added functionality of allowing muscle variation by race and in varying degrees and randomly by NPC, and finally based on player character weight and possibly other factors. Used alongside Gopher's Pumping Iron mod, this makes for some very interesting and immersive variation that I think would be perfect for STEP:Extended. We just need to verify some additional plugin behaviors, gameplay ramifications and implementation methodology. I have a comment on the DMT topic thread regarding simplification and would appreciate it if others could look at these three mods together. I have yet to try Gopher's mod, but the other two together look fantastic. Following is a screen of the max muscle body msn that I manually added to WSCO occidental vanilla ... the second includes Improved Vanilla Underwear and Female Idle Animation Swap, which I think looks more realistic for our character, but maybe not for NPCs ... not sure if that idle gets used everywhere though:

[kryptopyr]

I've always liked the idea of Pumping Iron, but it doesn't really work for females; breasts will increase in size much more noticeably than muscle mass.  The Diverse Muscle Tone mod might help with this a bit, but it doesn't solve the issue.  Unless you can also find a way to separate female breast size from the weight slider, then I don't see how Pumping Iron would work for STEP.

[TechAngel85]

:facepalm:  BHB has an XCE version available so you should be using that and not the vanilla BHB when combined with XCE. The XCE version also works with WSCO. Sooo....hopefully you don't have to redo all your compares...

 

As far as textures, you are correct. They are going to have to be XCE compatible to be able to work with the FemFeet that is integrated into both XCE and WSCO. That is why I've been in contact with some of the skin texture authors. STEP has already been give permission to do as we please with SG Textures. I'm talking to the author of Mature Skin; however, it's been days between replies so it's been a waiting game.

 

I also noticed that the author has given credit and thanks to Better Males; therefore, WSCO might be a total replacer for us. We'll have to do and male comparisons once we have the females worked out.

[z929669]

@kryptopyr

I did not realize that Pumping Iron worked via the size slider. I will need to verify how this works with the vanilla body though. It may be that breasts for the vanilla body are not slider compatible?

 

@Tech

:facepalm: You failed to read and interpret problem 2 above BHB - XCE is not compatible with the vanilla body or even XCE because of this. Look at the screens. BHB - XCE is compatible with the Phigit feet but not the vanilla body. BHB - vanilla is compatible with the vanilla body but not Phigit's feet. Get it?

[TechAngel85]

Are you sure this isn't an issue with a texture you're using. I'm not having any of those issues with XCE or WCSO with the BHB - XCE version. (default skin textures)

 

EDIT:

All the glow looks like SG Textures.

[z929669]

OK, I will need to double check the file I have for BHB - XCE in MO. I may have overwritten with Caliente's TextureBlend app during my testing (that app uses CBBE Slim msn musculature to blend ... I wanted to experiment, and I think I must have blended CBBE muscular msn from Fitness Training mod into BHB - XCE :facepalm: ).

 

Will advise.

 

EDIT: No, the issue is with the msn, not the color maps. WSCO does use SG diffuse I think (and those normals show BHB - XCE over WSCO Occidental vanilla)

 

 

Regardless, the BHB normals are not as good as the DMT normals IIRC. Take the heaviest of the DMT normals for the vanilla body (tone6 I think) and rename to femalebody_1_msn.dds and see for yourself. The other variable tones are lighter, and you can try those as well. One issue I still have with the vanilla body is that the panty mesh does not meet perfectly with the upper right thigh mesh of the rear right side. I don't think any fix exists, but I will post a screen to illustrate when I get home.

 

I think we should determine if we will continue using XCE or go with WSCO. They both essentially alter the same things, and the latter appears to have better-optimized body textures and also incorporates SG-type skin textures (XCE skin is too gray and dirty IMO). XCE scars and face decals are still viable though, but there is significant overlap between these two. If we do use XCE stuff, then we might consider the piecemeal Xenius mods, which do not conflict. Where there is conflict, I think WSCO wins with regard to aesthetics (but I have not done a detailed compare yet).

[plaGGy]

Not sure, but i have an annoying glow in sunny weathers appearing in the face with WCSO, that does not appear with the XCE pack.

 

Have done two comparision shots.

 

First shot is with WSCO, second one is with XCE.

Im using STEP:Core and an ENB, but its only fixing shadows, no bloom or what ever. The glow is 98% the same in vanilla, in fact its a bit stronger without ENB.

Most settings are ultra or high. Brightness is Default.

Edited April 29, 2014 by plaGGy

[TechAngel85]

OK, I will need to double check the file I have for BHB - XCE in MO. I may have overwritten with Caliente's TextureBlend app during my testing (that app uses CBBE Slim msn musculature to blend ... I wanted to experiment, and I think I must have blended CBBE muscular msn from Fitness Training mod into BHB - XCE :facepalm: ).

 

Will advise.

 

EDIT: No, the issue is with the msn, not the color maps. WSCO does use SG diffuse I think (and those normals show BHB - XCE over WSCO Occidental vanilla)

 

 

Regardless, the BHB normals are not as good as the DMT normals IIRC. Take the heaviest of the DMT normals for the vanilla body (tone6 I think) and rename to femalebody_1_msn.dds and see for yourself. The other variable tones are lighter, and you can try those as well. One issue I still have with the vanilla body is that the panty mesh does not meet perfectly with the upper right thigh mesh of the rear right side. I don't think any fix exists, but I will post a screen to illustrate when I get home.

 

I think we should determine if we will continue using XCE or go with WSCO. They both essentially alter the same things, and the latter appears to have better-optimized body textures and also incorporates SG-type skin textures (XCE skin is too gray and dirty IMO). XCE scars and face decals are still viable though, but there is significant overlap between these two. If we do use XCE stuff, then we might consider the piecemeal Xenius mods, which do not conflict. Where there is conflict, I think WSCO wins with regard to aesthetics (but I have not done a detailed compare yet).

I'm voting for WSCO. I'm pretty sure it can also replace Better Males. As for the panty mesh I know exactly what you're talking about:

 

 

The only mods that fixed this were the mods that don't work for STEP (UNP & CBBE). I haven't found a fix either. You can also notice that inner thigh seam that is present in vanilla at certain angles. This isn't completely fixed in either mod. WSCO is the victor for me over XCE because these issues exist in both mods. However, more testing still needs to be done, especially with the elven races as those got a bigger overhaul than the others.

 

Not sure, but i have an annoying glow in sunny weathers appearing in the face with WCSO, that does not appear with the XCE pack.

 

Have done two comparision shots.

 

First shot is with WSCO, second one is with XCE.

Im using STEP:Core and an ENB, but its only fixing shadows, no bloom or what ever. The glow is 98% the same in vanilla, in fact its a bit stronger without ENB.

Most settings are ultra or high. Brightness is Default.

The glow is just the skin texture. Ideally, we'll be replacing it with a better texture. Here's what WCSO looks like on my system:

 

If I knew how to tone that down I would but I'm not a texture artist.

[plaGGy]

Ah, just reread the last pages on phone: So the plan is to only use the extracted meshes cause of the vanilla/custom armor compatibility and mix them up with additional textures?

Or is it also about using the default .esps? I liked XCE for its simplicity.

Edited April 29, 2014 by plaGGy

[TechAngel85]

Ah, just reread the last pages on phone: So the plan is to only use the extracted meshes cause of the vanilla/custom armor compatibility and mix them up with additional textures?

For both female and male, i guess?

If chosen, we'll be using the mod in it's entirety. We'll most likely deactivate the NPC module (it can actually be skipped in the install) and hopefully replace the skin texture with a better one. That is just ideal though, not guaranteed. It's all still very much in testing/trial & error phase right now.