DROPPED Terrain Bump - Texture Pack (by SparrowPrince)

[z929669]

First set:

•  
• A
• A
• B
• -
• -
• -
• B
  

  Second set:
  

  1.  
  2. A
  3. B
  4. B
  5. B
  6. B
  7. A
     

[TechAngel85]

Well since you took the time to do that additional piece then the least I can do is come with my 5cents this time. 

 

In all cases I would say that the more bumpy ones always win. 

 

8: Snow.. not much that can be done in the normal maps for this so... very minor differences all around. The actual snow texture would always matter 100% more then its normal map in that case. 

 

9: On the path down to the water on the left side the difference is quite clear, and the added bumpyness helps the entire thing blend better and look more natural since it removes the flatness.

 

10: Like on the previous one of the same type then the A one is just weirdly flat which makes it look like the rocks are going into the ground rather then out of it. The B have the extra dimension that helps break it up a bit. One can argue that it might be a bit too strong in those textures cases however.

 

11:  B just looks more natural imo. There just is more depth in that shot where the A one again is just unaturally flat. 

 

12: Now here we have the infamous tiny rocks of meh... However in the B shots they actually blend in better with the terrain then in A. 

 

13: The A one since it is more bumpy. 

 

I guess in general when you slide between the two you can really see the bumpy nature of them here and in most cases they make the whole terrain a bit darker overall with the fake shadow effect. 

I can appreciate that some folks might think it is a bit too much, and I would tend to agree that it mostly is perhaps a little bit over the top.. but overall I still think it is better then just having a flat featureless set. 

8 has very lil to do with the snow. You should be focusing in on the path stones and road path here and not the snow. Same with in set 1. The snow related normals from TB, I choose as being okay since the actual texture is 98% of how the final result looks. Like you said, the snow normals have every little effect.

9... not sure which you are voting for here...A?

[z929669]

I agree with Aiyen: the bumpier maps win in almost every case. Ideally the normal 'bumps' map directly to the texture shading, but this is terrain, and an overall more bumpiness, regardless of perfect match, creates better blending with the environment, particularly the LOD pop-in as Aiyen also pointed out.

 

The only stark contrast is the second image in the first set. B is just plain bad. The last shot in the first set: B looks better, but I realize that the normal does not match the base texture, and there is some warping, but the overall effect is better.

 

This is background stuff, not focal stuff, so noisier is almost always better, IMO.

 

That is why we have always recommended TB for STEP ... it adds noise to an otherwise relatively smooth terrain.

 

To be fair, I pretty much know which is TB in most of these shots, and it is not better in every case, but it is better in most.

[TechAngel85]

So far, there is at least one interesting result from this that will most likely lead to another TB normal being hidden, if it is voted to be kept.

[TechAngel85]

I agree with Aiyen: the bumpier maps win in almost every case. Ideally the normal 'bumps' map directly to the texture shading, but this is terrain, and an overall more bumpiness, regardless of perfect match, creates better blending with the environment, particularly the LOD pop-in as Aiyen also pointed out.

 

The only stark contrast is the second image in the first set. B is just plain bad

I'll go ahead and give that one away since it has been brought up before this compare. In set 2, A is TB and in set 3, B is TB. This is the glacierslab_n.dds file.

 

I think those are probably the most obvious set as to which is TB and with are the original normals. As Aiyen stated, neither are ideal and it would be best to have something in-between. Maybe SparrowPrince can tone that normal down a bit.

[z929669]

My guesses:

 

1. A = TB2. A = TB3. B = TB4. A = TB5. B = TB6. B = TB7. B = TB8. A = TB9. B = TB10. B = TB11. A = TB (the vanilla normal is better in this one case IMO)12. B = TB13. A = TB

 

... so, bumpier is better, no? This is a good lesson in 'creative effects' used to add flare and that sticking to "best practice" is not always best when it comes to art.

 

@Tech ... thanks for posting the screens!

[TechAngel85]

Since Z tossed that out there, I'm going to say that he is correct on all the sets. I think anyone who has a good knowledge of what the normals do could have guessed correctly. Set 11 is the interesting result I referred to. Both Aiyen and Z chose the original normal to be the better looking option and I agree with them on at least that one set.

 

I am about to have to head to work, but I will give my full review and opinions this evening. I honestly think it comes down to a more personal choice and if anything results from this, perhaps the compares will give users a better understanding of what TB is doing in-game and allow them to better choose which they like best.

[Simondererste]

a bb a b a

So i agree with Z for all the sets(i preferred the other one on 5. but in 11. i liked the darker one. Both where more about the brightness than the normal maps).

Depth >> Flat looking texture, even if the one with more depth has technically more mistakes.

[TechAngel85]

Okay, time for my detailed review while my pizza cooks... Basically I'm choosing the original normals for all sets, but let me explain why that is and what the issue(s) is/are with each set. Some of it will simply be personal preference while the rest will be for my OCD to be subsided.

 

Set 1 & 8

B, the original normal. This is for /roads/road01snow01_n.dds. If you look around the base of the stones, you can notice blurriness and stretching of the snow texture. This is because the texture is provided by HQ Snow which covers more of the path with snow and shows less of the stones. Since the TB normal is for HRDLC which has more of the stones showing, you are left with stretching around the base of every stone on the path.

 

Set 2 & 3

2) B=original, 3) A=original. These, as I mention above, are for glacierslab_n.dds. I personally like TB up close but the original (which is from Real Ice) from a distance. As Aiyen pointed out, pop-in is an issue with the TB normal and makes it very noticeable; much less so with Real Ice. I think a balance between the two would be the best option here but for now we're left at choosing one or the other. For myself, I find the pop-in far more distracting so I'm going for the original here as well. Besides, I'm level 21 with my current character and have seen very little of this texture while playing.

 

Set 4 & 9

Original is B and it's fieldgrass02_n.dds from Skyrim Flora Overhaul. This is one where my OCD kicks in. The TB normal isn't just a little bit off, SFO is completely different making it way off. If you look at the details in the texture from SFO vs TB, you'll notice that everything is warped and some of the details become completely unrecognizable. The color change with the "fake shadow effect" also bothers me because for me, I can see "dark shadow lines" running across the texture up close.

 

Set 5

Original is A and it's riverbededge_n.dds from SRO. To be honest here, there isn't much difference in the shots besides the "fake shadow effect". There is some very slight, barely noticeable stretching around the base of some of the rocks as well.

 

Set 6

Original is A and it's pineforest02_n.dds from SRO. This one is completely different like Set 4; however, it's not as noticeable. The main issue here is the "fake shadow effect" because it is not well placed on the texture (of course because they don't match). The shadowing should be appearing below the green leaves in order to give them the appearance of height and depth, however, the shadowing is just planted (no pun intended) on top of the texture which means it's on top of the leaves. Not anywhere close to where it should be. Some leaves are half covered in shadowing while others either are covered completely or not at all. Very inconsistent and incorrect.

 

Set 7 & 10

7) A=original, 10) A=original. This is tundrarocks01_n.dds from SRO. I will agree that in certain situations TB can look better; however, just knowing what it's doing to the texture bugs me. The original shape of the rocks are completely warped out of shape. There is also that "fake shadow effect" in-between the rocks everywhere. It shouldn't be there at all because that is actually the placement of the rocks in the HRDLC texture; therefore, those "shadows" you're seeing between the rocks are complete foobars since that "shadow" is actually where the normal is placing a rock where no rock exists.

 

Set 11

Original is B and it's fieldgrass01_n.dds from SRO. I think we're all in agreement that the original looks better here.

 

Set 12

Original is A and it's fallforestdirt01_n.dds from SRO. Same issue here is mainly with that "fake shadow effect" you guys talked about. If you look closely, some of those shadows are actually round spots. That is because the TB normal is putting a rock there where none exists so you end up with a round, shadow dot on the ground. (Yeah...that's better. Not!) The TB normal also completely flattens out other rocks that are obviously not suppose to be flat.

 

Set 13

Original is B and it's....I'm not postive..this was a stumble find but the texture is SRO. Same as above, fake shadow effect is bogus because those are suppose to be rocks, not shadows. I also think the original blends better because the color matches the edges of objects better, like the large boulder; whereas, the TB color change doesn't match at all.

 

Basically those are the issues with using the TB normals with the SRO textures. It would be nice if there was a SRO version of TB, but there's not. I will not being using TB in my personal setup anymore; however, from the tallies it looks like it'll be staying in STEP (unless my arguments against it here has swayed the crowd) and in my STEP profiles (just not in my personal one).

[z929669]

Valid input, but I go back to my original premise. Landscape textures and models are our approximation of natural constructs like dirt, stones, rock, and grass. These natural objects have random variation that no artist can ever capture exactly. Thus the detail and randomness that TB adds is an overall improvement, IMO, and it makes the landscape a bit more detailed and interesting at no cost. Blending with the surrounding objects is generally better. Rocks and mountains are significantly improved due to the added bumpiness.

 

With regard to ordered, organized objects, I 100% agree that normals should be created from the same source as the diffuse in order to sync light reflection with the texture shading, but more random and whimsical things like terrain and unordered objects benefit nicely from the added detail.

 

TB is a nice touch for STEP and almost always has been. We can hide a few of the bad ones (there will be very few though), but I think we should keep the mod in STEP. Also, I don't think pop-in is increased by TB but rather reduced, since the LOD usually hint at more detail than the actual models put out.

[TechAngel85]

I think my problem is, now that I've seen the compares (much more than what I've posted here) it's hard to unsee the inconsistency.    Where I once only noticed some odd shadowing on texture here and there (didn't know it was TB at the time but do now), I now see issues everywhere with TB enabled because I know that "shadow" on that texture is suppose to be a rock...not a shadow. So I'll be playing with TB disabled so I can actually play and not be distracted by this and that texture as I'm running by it. 

[z929669]

To each his own, I guess, but there are lots of things that could bother you about things that look 3-dimensional that are revealed to be only flat polygons upon closer inspection ... normal maps are only a trick and are really a lie when you look closely

[TechAngel85]

That's why I try not to look too closely and simply play the game normally. I am rarely standing around thinking, "that blade of glass back there look weird...better so look at it up close"; which is the reason I never noticed any of this before. Obrother got me looking at these textures/normals up close and that was that...can't unsee the seen. In actual gameplay there's not going to be a lot of difference and is the reason I said earlier that it will most likely come down to personal preference. I think I'll add the compares to the OP just for reference sake. I might add some more to them too...or not. Idk, I'm not in the mood for compares at the moment.

[Aiyen]

While I see your argument and think it is entire valid then I still am in agreement with Z more or less. 

 

It is landscape textures.. the minute details of up close and personal should not be the main attraction since again that will require at least 2k resolution to be pulled off even remotely successfully. 

 

Most of the issues you point out with the fake AO bake I entirely agree with, but overall I think it is still an improvement when you look at it as a whole rather then at specific rocks. The main reason the warping and effects look so off when you go close is that the resolution of the normal map is simply not good enough to pull of that kind of small detail. In cases like this you would be able to see noticeable differences if you make even a loss less format normal map. But again the cost of those is really kinda prohibitive for STEP imo. 

 

One can again take a nice look at the 4k versions of the various landscape textures pfusher made... they are absolutely stunning up close and personal with almost everthing in the bake looking spot on... but again the cost.. and tileing of the texture. Since that is another issue with landscape textures... if you make the details too sharp the repetitive pattern will stand out like a bad sore really fast! Hence why it can be a good thing to have some more blurry landcape textures and keeping most of the detail in the normal map. 

[Simondererste]

I think my problem is, now that I've seen the compares (much more than what I've posted here) it's hard to unsee the inconsistency.    Where I once only noticed some odd shadowing on texture here and there (didn't know it was TB at the time but do now), I now see issues everywhere with TB enabled because I know that "shadow" on that texture is suppose to be a rock...not a shadow. So I'll be playing with TB disabled so I can actually play and not be distracted by this and that texture as I'm running by it. 

I know that feeling. What once was seen, cannot be unseen ;P