DROPPED Immersive Citizens - AI Overhaul (by Shurah)

[Nazenn]

Just a few notes on my points specifically above as that info is near a month old and a lot changes in a month mod wise:
REGS is the only pack I know of that's dropped support partly because of ICAIO. Originally I thought there was multiple because I wasn't as familiar with STEP packs and who was maintaining what, so I thought it was more because I thought REGS and Explorers Guide were different and I also thought it was an issue with SRLE as well because I was in contact with an author for that who was also expressing concerns over ICAIOs inclusion. In the end, its just REGS and it prompted me to learn a lot more about STEP and its packs, so just put that down to my confusion :)

 

The memory issue is mostly negated if you run ENBoost, which is apart of STEP:Core as I was informed, so its a non issue as far as this is concerned, it was mainly for people running other set ups, people who can't run ENBoost for whatever reason, and also for people running a lot of NPC addition mods (which causes extra strain on the scripting system as well, so thats not entirely an ICAIO exclusive issue either)

 

The permissions thing I lay almost entirely at nexus' feet as they really need to sort out what you do or don't need permissions for and what constitutes a patch or an update etc, because its confusing a lot of authors as far as what is ban worthy or not, and every time they try and get it sorted on the mod author forums it just goes around in endless circles. It would be nice if Shurah would allow patches to be made as long as they include a big neon banner saying its not an official patch and not official supported, but I also know how many users blame the core mod when a patch breaks and how annoying that can be.

 

JKs Lite has now been added to the partial incompatibility listing of ICAIO, but with no further info, which is both good and bad because while its annoying to still not have any info, I'm very grateful that its now listed in at least some way as it really helps the users know where they stand with this sort of stuff.

I also have dropped ICAIO support for JKs Lite now, especially now I'm working on the towns, as its just too hard, and its mainly for the users benefit as I don't want to publish patches etc that I'm not certain are okay, and I also don't want to create confusion about the compatibility status, maybe down the line, but not right now. The cities as they are work fine right now as far as I know with the exception of the archery targets in JKs Whiterun, but the towns will potentially be a different matter.

 

I also wish to state that I have no resentment or issues towards Shurah as a person at all. All of my frustration comes from my own lack of knowledge and lack of ability to help and confusion over whats happening, but I still have a lot of respect for Shurah as a fellow mod author and all of the stuff that they are doing and dealing with both on the mod front and what I know of their personal situation :)

[Shadriss]

So with all this said, I have to ask - where does STEP stand on continued inclusion of this mod? If there is that much ambiguity about how it works, what it works with (or doesn't), and so forth, is it really something we should mess with or not? Honestly, I'm not sure I've seen anything new with regard to NPC actions that I can recall, and now that he's also (as I recall, I may be wrong here) added things into Rorikstead, there could be even more issues as they relate to mods that alter towns and villages.

[shurah]

The answer is big, so I have to split it in 2 parts.

 

For me, the only interesting comment is the following one from blurgblod:

If you use redditor opinion to decide what is good to download, you will have a very very small load order. - Abraham Lincoln, probably

Download the mod and try it out. It's been a few months for myself, but I noticed the changes right away, and never really had any problems. At least I didn't notice any problems, which are arguably the best kind if problems to have.

 

 

 

 

Thalassa: I don't like that the fomod picks patches for you. I prefer to pick my own patches thank you.

 

Jawz is the one who has made the installer and I'm fully satisfied by his contribution. I prefer when the users don't complain that they get a CTD at the main menu. Besides, nobody prevent the user to do a manual install.

 

Thalassa: Shurah refuses to share any information about the mod, how it works, and his points on incompatability are inconsistent at best.

 

I refuse to share any information? What about the description (https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/65013/?), the multiples video about ICAIO (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEFdan-sAeAgM-4VUutkHrQ) as well as the article about ICAIO incompatibilities (https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/articles/50303/?).

Besides, I didn't lock the esp, so anyone is free to open it in the Creation Kit and to analyze how it works, but I guess that it's more easy to accuse without evidences.

 

Thalassa: There are about 20 of these package-applying quests (again: didn't count, estimating) that are added. Whiterun and Riverwood are complete: The NPC packages are totally re-done by these quests. They will completely supersede any other packages as long as the conditions specified in the quest are met (which, given the number of packages, they should).

 

Wrong, as i explain in ICAIO's description: My plugin is compatible with any plugins editing the AI. Indeed, Bethesda offered the possibility to give a priority number to each AI (between 0 and 100), the higher the number is, the higher the priority is. If 2 plugins add an AI with the same priority number, then the load order is taken into account by the game engine. So, either my AI has priority or my AI is overridden. The AI used by vanilla quests have a higher priority that my AI. Therefore, my plugin doesn't prevent the vanilla quests from working as intended. Besides, the AI used by a vanilla quest is only active if it meets specific criteria. For example, an AI related to a vanilla quest will not be active if the related quest is inactivate or completed.

 

Overall, the fact that Thalassa never released a single mod, doesn't give him credit at all. Add to this that most of his statements are incorrect and easily checkable (if you will to spend some times to check them). Moreover, the fact that I ban him for trolling decreases even more his credibility on this subject.

 

 

Edit: For the sake of clarity, I removed the parts which became irrelevants since the insults toward me have been removed from Neaorox posts.

Edited January 11, 2016 by shurah

[shurah]

Arthmoor: I've tried to tease out the vanilla bugs he keeps saying he's fixing too but I can never get a reply back when I ask.

 

There is quite a gap between what he says and the reality. Here are some proofs: proof1 ; proof2 ; proof3

 

 

Arthmoor: When the NPCs die, it is true the aliases don't clear, but the game also stops calculating their AI. Dead NPCs don't do much more than take up memory space because of how he's done things, but the more NPCs he covers in more area, the more aliases he'll need, and each one takes up space that is never released. In addition, any NPCs that don't have a corpse cleanup script will never be purged from the game. (This is the reason I don't use the mod btw, beast or no beast, Skyrim's memory is too precious to waste, and his initial load screen takes 10+ minutes to process)

 

No proofs, no evidences.

On the paper, my AI packages uses less ressources than the Vanilla AI package: my AI packages are optimised while the Vanilla AI packages are not. Indeed, my AI package uses less conditions than the vanilla AI package. Besides, the methodology that I use to apply my AI packages is routinely used in Skyrim vanilla. Indeed, Skyrim Vanilla contains a ton of quests running permanently and containing a lot of alias which are never cleared even when the related NPCs die. Here are some examples of quests: DialogueWhiterun, DialogueSolitude, DialogueRiverwood_Revised, DialogueFalkreath, ect.

If you know how to use the Creation Kit, it's easy to check by yourself.

Does it drains ressources? According to the literature, no. The only information that I found about this are on Creation Kit wiki: https://www.creationkit.com/Quest_Alias_Tab

Here some interesting informations:

 

 

According to the wiki:

 

There are 6 ways that an alias can be filled during the process of starting the quest.

Specific Reference A specific reference is assigned to this alias.

Note that this makes that reference permanently persistent (always loaded in memory), even when this quest is not running. This can eventually cause performance issues, particularly with actors.

• Contrary to the above, all aliases are persistent for as long as the quest is running.

Unique Actor Pick a Unique actor to fill the alias. Note that this will only work if the specified actor's reference has been assigned a Persist Location.

 

My alias are filled with unique actors and not with specific references. This is easy to check by yourself.

So according to the official wiki, Arthmoor lies.

 

But, this is the theory, what about practice?

In practice, this is easy to check by yourself by using a performance monitor tool such as Skyrim Performance Monitor which will allow you to track Skyrim’s system resource usage.

Of course, contrary to Arthmoor, I tested. The result? Even without using ENBoost and even by filling all the alias dedicated to the extra NPCs, Skyrim Performance Monitor didn't detect a significative drain in ressource (less than 1% in my case). This has been confirmed by several users using low rigs (see the comments on the nexus forum).

 

Another evidence against Arthmoor, is that the USKP doesn't adress this "issue", while a ton of vanilla quests (the dialogue quests for example, I gave exemples above) are filled with aliases which run permanently.

 

So, nothing concrete supports Arthmoor theory.

I skip the "10+ minutes to process" as it's too easy to check by yourself.

 

Arthmoor: If there's some other reason why mods would be incompatible, he simply hasn't said.

 

What? A quote from my article about compatibility:

 

The word incompatible is not really suited (but I use it for convenience). "Not designed to work with my plugin" is much more appropriate because most of the plugins listed here don't directly clash with my plugin. Therefore, for most of those plugins you won't see any incompatibilities by using TES5edit. However, in practice, the issues that you'll get by using my plugin along with one or several of these plugins are real. Here is a small sample of issues you can get: impossibility to complete some quests, quests not working as intended, NPCs performing actions with thin-air, NPCs having path-finding troubles, NPCs stuck forever (or for several hours) at specific places, etc.

The reason for these issues is very simple: to work, an AI uses one or several references, usually invisible markers (in my case, I use only extra invisible markers) positioned according to the layout of cities, villages, or interior rooms. So if a plugin disrupts my AI, it also disrupts the vanilla AI. Therefore, most of the plugins tagged as being "incompatible", also disrupt the vanilla AI in some way. Other plugins are listed here, either because they delete references edited by my plugin or because they modify several navmeshes also edited by my plugin or because they add static objects overlapping many of my markers.

 

Arthmoor: So far as I can tell, there's no reason Nazenn's work on JKs shouldn't be entirely compatible. So long as his markers aren't buried under buildings it shouldn't matter one bit as long as the navmeshes are sound.

 

Some of my markers are buried under stuffs. Here are some proofs:

 

Markers colliding with each other: https://postimg.org/image/g3wwgmk0z/

Marker hidden by a stair, which causes Aela to throw arrows against the stair: https://postimg.org/image/ev8sr8b13/

Static object overlapping a marker: https://postimg.org/image/6n8vrfofr/

Marker which is no more accessible due to the presence of a wall: https://postimg.org/image/eigpll6kf/

Note also that the extra smelter will cause issues, because NPCs will try to use it while the area around the smelter is not navmeshed: https://postimg.org/image/k2tng2rqb/.

For the smelter, the mod author could at least turn "on" the flag 'ignored by sandbox"

 

All this issues are easy to spot, you don't even need to use the Creation Kit, all you need to do is to turn "on" bShowMarkers=1 in your skyrim.ini under the display section.

Note that these screenshots have been taken by using JKs Cities - lites. This is why I tagged JKs Cities Lite as being slightly incompatible.

 

 

Arthmoor: I was digging around in his aliases to see how he handled the fleeing from dragons stuff but couldn't quite piece it together. Asked for some pointers, never heard back.

 

You never asked me this kind of information, hence the lack of answer.

Nazenn: I've become EXTREMELY skeptical of his claim that he has all these magic skill and CK secrets no one else knows about.

 

This plugin is the prove of my skills in the AI field. If you don't want to believe what you see, that's your problem. If some people don't want to aknowlege me, it doesn't matter.

If I prefer to spend my time to take action rather than to boast on a forum, it's my right and I take it.

 

Nazenn: We can't make true compatibility patches for the mod right now because Shurah refuses to give permission, and anyone who makes one by editing parts of his esp and releasing it as a separate esp as a patch gets threatened with a ban.

 

I refused to give permission? I threatened people? Where are the proofs? Where are the evidences?

But me I have counter evidences: evidence1 ; evidence2 ; evidence3 ; evidence4 ; evidence5

Add to that the existence of several non official compatibility patches, such as the one for Immersive Wenches. Here is a public talk between me and lordkoz:

 

Shurah wrote: Hello,

The patch for Immersive Citizens - AI Overhaul is no longer required.

See ya

 

lordkoz wrote: Edit: I notice you removed your edits in the "WIServerParonSceneA" quest and that helped but wenches are still getting selected by your quests, its noticeable in windhelm since yours quests will make them all gather inside candlehearth inn, or walk outside the city back and forth.

Other thing is the edit in the "WITavernServerSandbox" package that makes all npcs in the servers faction to hold a drinkstray, in the patch the wenches were excluded so they can use their own patrol markers and ai, otherwise they will just stand still.

Also since wenches scenes have 0 priority so all other scenes have priority over them and they are getting used as alias in your quests, they just dont play them.

I would say that the patch its still necessary, since it lets the wenches be wenches XD.

 

source: https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/1414415-immersive-wenches/page-142

This shows that i'm fully aware of the existence of non official compatibility patches and that I tolerate them.

 

 

Let be honest, the real reason that you can't make compatibility patches is because you don't the have skills and the knowledge to do it.

 

 

Conclusion: they have no proof, no evidence, no argument but they talk a lot

 

 

Edit: For the sake of clarity, I removed the parts which became irrelevants since the insults toward me have been removed from Neaorox posts.

Edited January 11, 2016 by shurah

[shurah]

So with all this said, I have to ask - where does STEP stand on continued inclusion of this mod? If there is that much ambiguity about how it works, what it works with (or doesn't), and so forth, is it really something we should mess with or not? Honestly, I'm not sure I've seen anything new with regard to NPC actions that I can recall, and now that he's also (as I recall, I may be wrong here) added things into Rorikstead, there could be even more issues as they relate to mods that alter towns and villages.

[TechAngel85]

The answer is big, so I have to split it in 2 parts.

 

Where are the interesting analysis? All I see are lies, libels and insult toward me and I'm going to prove it. But before that, I would like to say that I'm rather shocked that a moderator added a link containing so many insulting contents.

I've read the post again and there is nothing insulting there. If you can point them out to me I'll deal with them. I've removed a few comments that might have been questionable, but I think you're taking the comments out of context and no one insulted you directly. What I read from that are 3 very well known members of the community who are confused because they're trying to understand your mod from a technical position; not what you're providing to everyday users.

 

I refuse to share any information? Of course the guy has no evidences! The existence of the description (https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/65013/?), the multiples video about ICAIO (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEFdan-sAeAgM-4VUutkHrQ) as well as the article about ICAIO incompatibilities (https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/articles/50303/?) are the proof that's it false.

Besides, I didn't lock the esp, so anyone is free to open it in the Creation Kit and to analyze how it works, but I guess that it's more easy to accuse without evidences.

That is not the type of information they're asking for. They're asking for more technical information. Not the information you're providing to everyday users. Think more of "how you did it" rather than how it works.

 

From wikipiedia: A navigation mesh, or navmesh, is an abstract data structure used in artificial intelligence applications to aid agents in pathfinding through complicated spaces. So yeah it's totally unrelated to AI and therefore totally unrelated to my plugin, or not !

Which is exactly what Thalassa said, just using different words.

 

This demonstrates to what extent Thalassa is unskilled and ignorant about the subject.

This is insulting the person directly as I mentioned above. We don't allow this on the forums, and because you are an author does not make you exempt. Please keep the discussion mature. Further insult to any person will result in a warning.

[kryptopyr]

Shurah, I don't think any of those modders are trying to insult you.  The way I read their comments, it simply sounds like they are very frustrated.  Many people are interested in your mod and the work you've done.  They like what they see and want to use it.  However, when a great mod conflicts with a bunch of other great mods, people are naturally going to want to find a way to use them together. 

 

The reason that these people are spending hours and hours of their time trying to decipher your work in order to make patches for it is because they like your mod and they really want to use it.  That's a compliment to you and what you've created.  They just sound frustrated at the lack of specific information to help guide them in making those compatibility patches.

 

I may be wrong since I've not dealt directly with any patches for ICAIO, but I feel like this is the sort of specific information that could be useful in improving the compatibility with other mods:

Markers colliding with each other: https://postimg.org/image/g3wwgmk0z/
Marker hidden by a stair, which causes Aela to throw arrows against the stair: https://postimg.org/image/ev8sr8b13/
Static object overlapping a marker: https://postimg.org/image/6n8vrfofr/
Marker which is no more accessible due to the presence of a wall: https://postimg.org/image/eigpll6kf/
Note also that the extra smelter will cause issues, because NPCs will try to use it while the area around the smelter is not navmeshed: https://postimg.org/image/k2tng2rqb/.
For the smelter, the mod author could at least turn "on" the flag 'ignored by sandbox"

This sort of list, no matter how brief, is infinitely more helpful than just stating that you saw a lot of bugs.  This gives people an example of what to look for when making/improving compatibility.

 

I know people have stated there's a language barrier, so I urge you to give these modders the benefit of the doubt and not judge their intentions so harshly.  The best way to learn more about modding is by sharing information.  This goes both ways.  The Wiki is not always 100% correct and even the most knowledgeable mod authors tend to have areas of expertise and areas where they still have more to learn.  No one knows everything about how the game works (probably not even any single individual at Bethesda).  We're all just trying to figure things out as we go, while trying to make the game better and having fun.

[shurah]

@ TechAngel85:

 

So for you, this is not an insult:

Thalassa: The mod author is being a d_ick about compatibility.

 

but this is an insult?:

 

Shurah: This demonstrates to what extent Thalassa is unskilled and ignorant about the subject.

There is something that I don't understand. I would be glad if you could moderate this thread in an equitable way.

I know that in England or in USA, you can say whatever you want about anything, but that's not the case everywhere. In France, we don't tolerate insult or accusation without bringing evidences. Thank you to take that into account

 

Edit: For the sake of clarity, I removed the parts which became irrelevants since the insults toward me have been removed from Neaorox posts.

Edited January 11, 2016 by shurah

[TechAngel85]

Again no proof. For a very simple reason, there is quite a gap between what he says and the reality. Here are some proofs: proof1 ; proof2 ; proof3

I let you judge.

Only that last one is dealing with the vanilla bugs (besides navmeshes, because he is aware of the navmesh issues) he is talking about. If it's been since July and you still haven't reported nor shared them, Arthmoor's reaction is understandable. He's been waiting for months for you to report them.

 

My alias are filled with unique actors and not with specific references. This is easy to check by yourself.

According to the article you linked, "all aliases are persistent for as long as the quest is running". Since your mod uses low priority quests which are always running, then all aliases are persistent in your mod as well, and therefore, held in memory. Are you saying this is not the case?

 

But, this is the theory, what about practice?

In practice, this is easy to check by yourself by using a performance monitor tool such as Skyrim Performance Monitor which will allow you to track Skyrim’s system resource usage.

Of course, contrary to Arthmoor, I tested. The result? Even without using ENBoost and even by filling all the alias dedicated to the extra NPCs, Skyrim Performance Monitor didn't detect a significative drain in ressource (less than 1% in my case). This has been confirmed by several users using low rigs (see the comments on the nexus forum).

 

Another evidence against Arthmoor, is that the USKP doesn't adress this "issue", while a ton of vanilla quests (the dialogue quests for example, some exemple are given above) are filled with aliases which run permanently.

 

So, nothing concrete supports Arthmoor theory.

I skip the "10+ minutes to process" as it's too easy to check by yourself.

I did run the numbers and as expected, they're not impressive. During my test runs I ran around the major towns and cities of Skyrim to be sure that I encountered as many NPCs as possible. The results:

 

Vanilla

RAM Usage - Avg: 1009 Max: 1251

VRAM Usage - Avg: 1190 Max: 1476

 

With ICAIO

RAM Usage - Avg: 1027 Max: 1282

VRAM Usage - Avg: 1195 Max: 1500

 

Verdict

ICAIO increased maximum RAM usage by 2.48% on average and VRAM usage by 1.63% on average. This is a 31MB and 24MB increase on the max ranges. The average usage is even lower. This is nothing that I would call game-breaking in the resource usage department and keep in mind some of that will be in the margin of user error so the actual usage is likely slightly lower. Texture mods are far more of a concern than this mod from the looks of these numbers.

 

This mod is likely more CPU intensive because the maximum CPU load increased 4% with ICAIO installed, but keep in mind there's also a small margin of user error there as well.

 

Another lie. A quote from my article about compatibility:

 

Other plugins are listed here, either because they delete references edited by my plugin or because they modify several navmeshes also edited by my plugin or because they add static objects overlapping many of my markers.

Here is a question that has come up and needs to be answered for the community:

Have you checked the navmeshes, personally, or have you simply seen that the other mods edit the same navmeshes that your mod does and because of that, you've listed it an incompatible? If it's the second reason, then it's possible the navmesh edits are similar enough to not cause any issues either way and, thus, not really be incompatible. The rest of your incompatibility statements, like below, stand.

 

Too bad for you, some of my markers are buried under stuffs. Here are some proofs:

 

Markers colliding with each other: https://postimg.org/image/g3wwgmk0z/

Marker hidden by a stair, which causes Aela to throw arrows against the stair: https://postimg.org/image/ev8sr8b13/

Static object overlapping a marker: https://postimg.org/image/6n8vrfofr/

Marker which is no more accessible due to the presence of a wall: https://postimg.org/image/eigpll6kf/

Note also that the extra smelter will cause issues, because NPCs will try to use it while the area around the smelter is not navmeshed: https://postimg.org/image/k2tng2rqb/.

For the smelter, the mod author could at least turn "on" the flag 'ignored by sandbox"

 

All this issues are easy to spot, you don't even need to use the Creation Kit, all you need to do is to turn "on" bShowMarkers=1 in your skyrim.ini under the display section.

Note that these screenshots have been taken by using JKs Cities - lites. This is why I tagged JKs Cities Lite as being slightly incompatible.

This right here!    This is very good and valuable information that the community needs to be able to make mods compatible with yours and what the other authors have been asking for! Very good examples! ::

[TechAngel85]

@ TechAngel85:

 

So for you, this is not an insult:

but this is an insult?:

 

There is something that I don't understand.

Besides, libel is not insult for you? In France it's punished by the law for information so I think you're taking the comments out of context.

 

 

 

 

@ kryptopyr: Thank you for your contribution. I'll answer you properly later. I need to take a break.

No, both are. I didn't see the one you listed and will remove it promptly. Thank you for bring it to my attention.

 

What kryptopyr said is correct on all points.

 

EDIT:

That must be from the other site or I've already deleted it.

[TechAngel85]

I'm going to state my intentions for allowing this (we typically don't like post from other forums because they can be taken out of context), but if it gets out of hand, I will step in to intervene or shut it down, if necessary. Lets be adults and play nice together!

 

It's my hope this will open up some good discussion. I might even learn something new along the way. If we can talk maturely and politely to one another, good and open discussion often results which will make everyone happy. I understand time is limited. So is mine, but it doesn't take much time nor effort to have a good intellectual discussion about the more finer points of modding. I think you, Shurah, has some knowledge that everyone in the community could benefit from, if you're willing to share and discuss, which I think you are seeing you've worked with a few individual authors already.

 

Let this be an open and free discussion about modding and ICAIO compatibility.

[shurah]

That is not the type of information they're asking for. They're asking for more technical information. Not the information you're providing to everyday users. Think more of "how you did it" rather than how it works.

They will get nothing from me by behaving like that. Either they offer me a win - win deal, either they learn by themselves as I did.

 

Only that last one is dealing with the vanilla bugs (besides navmeshes, because he is aware of the navmesh issues) he is talking about. If it's been since July and you still haven't reported nor shared them, Arthmoor's reaction is understandable. He's been waiting for months for you to report them.

 

I forgot to share the context. I don't want to work with Arthmoor because 5 days later after he asked for help, he started to spread hoaxes about ICAIO. Here is an example: https://postimg.org/image/czruazf9x/full/

Since, he spread hoaxes regularly about ICAIO and then he started to complain in public that I don't want to helm him. In short, on one side he asks me for help, on the other side he stabs me in the back. I don't want to aknowledge this kind of behavior, hence my decision to don't work with him.

 

Verdict

ICAIO increased maximum RAM usage by 2.48% on average and VRAM usage by 1.63% on average. This is a 31MB and 24MB increase on the max ranges. The average usage is even lower.

 

If it's below 10%, it's not significant for me. When I wrote the description and the article about compatibility, I had to find a good balance between clarity and accuracy.

 

 

Here is a question that has come up and needs to be answered for the community:

Have you checked the navmeshes, personally, or have you simply seen that the other mods edit the same navmeshes that your mod does and because of that, you've listed it an incompatible? If it's the second reason, then it's possible the navmesh edits are similar enough to not cause any issues either way and, thus, not really be incompatible. The rest of your incompatibility statements, like below, stand.

 

This right here!    This is very good and valuable information that the community needs to be able to make mods compatible with yours and what the other authors have been asking for! Very good examples! ::

 

I check the navmeshes personally, I test them in the Creation Kit & In game. I check if the area I use are navmeshed and if some statics objects are added, I also check where they have been added and if they overlap my markers. I also check if the position of vanila static objects are moved.

If I have some doubts, I test directly the AI.

If some people doesn't trust me, it doesn't matter, they are free to do whatever they want after all.

 

This right here!    This is very good and valuable information that the community needs to be able to make mods compatible with yours and what the other authors have been asking for! Very good examples! ::

I've already done this several times. Here is an example with enhanced landscape: here

I stopped because I don't have the time anymore.

Edited January 6, 2016 by shurah

[shurah]

I would like also to remind you some facts.

 

- I made this mod for 2 reasons:

* To show that it was possible to do something much better than the products made by the videogame industry
* To show that people care about AI

Everything else was secondary and remains secondary.

If you like my mod, that's fine, if you don't like it, that's fine too.

Besides, the current compatibility of ICAIO is already way beyond my initial expectation.

 

- I have much more important problems to deal with, such as winning enough money to rent a room, to pay the electricity, to buy some foods etc.
- My life time is limited, it means that I won't have enough time to do everything I want to do. It means that I have to make choices, take decisions. It means that i can't make everyone happy, so whatever I do, some people will hate me.
- I don't necessarily live in the same country as you, it means that i don't have the same culture as you as well as the same values as you. Trying to convince me that you own the truth, is a waste of time at best. I don't judge your values, so the minimal respect is to don't judge mine.

 

 

If you can't accept that, it doesn't really matter to be honest, I said what I have to say.

 

History will prove if I was right or wrong.

Edited January 6, 2016 by shurah

[shurah]

Shurah, I don't think any of those modders are trying to insult you.  The way I read their comments, it simply sounds like they are very frustrated.  Many people are interested in your mod and the work you've done.  They like what they see and want to use it.

I understand that they are frustrated, but that doesn't justify their behavior.

If they have asked kindly and without stabbing me in parallel, I would have answered.

By spreading false informations and by giving value judgements against me (without presenting arguments or proofs), they don't improve my feeling toward them.

At least Nazenn started to withdraw his accusations.

 

 

The reason that these people are spending hours and hours of their time trying to decipher your work in order to make patches for it is because they like your mod and they really want to use it.  That's a compliment to you and what you've created.  They just sound frustrated at the lack of specific information to help guide them in making those compatibility patches.

 

Don't you think that I wasn't frustrated by the lack of information when I started to make this plugin? Can you imagine the amount of frustration I had to deal with during several months? I have to face all that frustation alone, because no one couldn't help me, for the simple reason that no one had the knowledges to help me. Therefore, frustration is not an receivable argument for me.

Besides, I don't even think that they spent more than 1 hour to analyze my mod.

 

I know people have stated there's a language barrier, so I urge you to give these modders the benefit of the doubt and not judge their intentions so harshly. 

That's not the language barrier the main problem in my opinion, but rather the cultural barrier. Besides, no one prevent them to say that it's a misunderstanding. Contrary to them, I explain my decisions and my thought.

 

 

 The best way to learn more about modding is by sharing information.  This goes both ways.  The Wiki is not always 100% correct and even the most knowledgeable mod authors tend to have areas of expertise and areas where they still have more to learn.  No one knows everything about how the game works (probably not even any single individual at Bethesda).  We're all just trying to figure things out as we go, while trying to make the game better and having fun.

Agree. But not everyone think like that.

Edited January 6, 2016 by shurah

[GrantSP]

I'll state straight away that my skill level with the CK is 0, zero, nada, nil. Having said that I think I have a firm enough grasp on the workings of this issue to say that ICAO does exactly what it is intended to do and does so rather well. I might actually say it is an inspired piece of work.

From what I can see the "issue" with the average modder trying to make a compatibility patch for this mod comes from the fact that you can't just load up xEdit and look for conflicting records since the real art to this mod comes from the navmesh placement. Since this means examining every single mod against ICAO I reckon a lot of modders just see too much work and look for an easier fix. Sadly it comes down to the fact that the only real success comes from hard work and until all the "so called incompatible" mods are checked against this, there will always be concerns and questioning.

 

On a purely technical basis this mod should be considered a 'must have' mod as it addresses a very real problem: pure AI implementation. As far as STEP is concerned I hope we can continue to showcase these great mods and offer as much support for it as possible.