DROPPED Immersive Citizens - AI Overhaul (by Shurah)

[Nazenn]

Just my 2 cents - wouldn't it be appropriate for Shurah's Navmessh "bugfixes" to be incorporated into USLEP?  My general direction in using a heavily modded skryim has been one toward using mods that are more singular in purpose.  If the core of ICAIO is an overhaul of AI, it stands to reason that Navmesh edits should be beyond the scope of this mod.  Sure, the two are dependent on one another, but adding these Navmesh bug-fixes to USLEP would (1) generally benefit the entire Skyrim community and (2) enhance the overall compatibility of ICAIO.

 

Then it would be up to mod authors who add world content to ensure navmesh best practices are followed.

 

Finally, we would be left with the issue of marker conflicts with mods that add structures, etc.  In this area, it would be very helpful for Shurah to provide a modder's reference regarding which markers are for what purpose.  This would aid in the creation of compatibility patches, with Navmesh now out of the picture due to the incorporation of Navmesh bug-fixes in USLEP.

 

My observation is that Shurah doesn't get enough credit for the documentation he HAS provided.  ICAIO is one of the most well documented mods on the Nexus - just read through all the content he has provided on the main mod page, the compatibility article, and in the Posts.  That said, I think a little additional documentation provided specifically for the modding community, and not just the user community, will go a long way.

 

I would finally recommend that Shurah stay somewhat focused on AI, as that is what he does so well and that is what adds so much to the game when using his mod.  Adding additional structures that are in conflict with existing very popular mods will only add to the confusion.  

 

In my 20+ years in an enterprise IT leadership role, more important than individual talent is the ability to focus that talent in a way that adds to the overall value of the community or team and not just the individual's efforts.  Like many situations in the professional world or in life, in the case of a well modded Skyrim game, the whole is truly greater than the sum of its parts.  ICAIO is a tremendous part, but it's value is diminished if it doesn't play well with the whole.

 

Ultimately, the end goal of any user is to be able to USE ICAIO along with other mods that have been long enjoyed in the load order.  I really hope the compatibility continues to progress.

Just two small points you may not have been aware of in regards your above statement:

- Arthmoor asked for the navmesh bug fixes to be submitted to the USKP tracker so they could include them and Shurah refused.

- A lot of the documentation that is there now never use to be there, and it also use to a lot more subjective rather then informational, which is why there is so much confusion on exactly what Shurah is trying to say, especially as far as technical implementation, because a lot of claims have been made but never clarified, or any clarification or discussion on it was removed from the comments.

 

That being said I am very glad that we are making progress as far as getting down to the core of it, and also very glad for the documentation that does exist as far as the user side of things go and that does help a lot and I know I've seen a lot of comments on steam particularly that have been very thankful for the documentation on what exactly the mod is changing as far as which towns and things like that.

[Nearox]

I'm just going to put this out there and this is not to oppose anything that Shurah is saying but to convey information from the community.

 

I've been in talks with some very good modders who really know their stuff, both on forums and in PMs. From those talks, I'm 98% confident, unless Shurah releases any unknown knowledge, that there is nothing more to navmeshing than what we already know and that is documented. I will recant this statement if any knowledge is given that proves otherwise. This would mean that more mods are compatible with ICAIO than what is led to believe when it specifically comes to navmesh conflicts.

 

Now a disclaimer here. I have NOT personally verified any of the mods that Shurah lists as incompatible. There may be markers hidden by objects, vanilla markers moved in them, or even bad navmesh edits that would definitely make those mods incompatible but I haven't checked this. From what I'm gathering from all these modders is that, as long as the navmeshes allow the NPCs to get to the markers that another mod adds (ICAIO), then it doesn't matter which navmesh from which mod wins the conflicts as long as the edges meet up at the cell borders so NPCs can cross the borders. I said this in another forum, but we could all navmesh the same area and all our navmeshes would conflict and be slightly different, but that doesn't mean one is better than the other. They could all work just the same and get the job done. That's not saying that neat navmeshes don't have their place, they should be neat and properly done.

 

City overhaul mods are likely not compatible due to interfering with the markers and NPC routines added by ICAIO. This is due to added buildings, objects, and structures, as well as, because of moved or removed vanilla objects. If you move a grinding stone over a bit then you'll see an NPC grinding in mid-air with ICAIO installed. These changes should also ensure they're not interfering with any quest related routines. In my opinion, city overhaul mods need to be made from the ground up with ICAIO compatibility in mind. I think fixing them in their current forms will be just a large of a challenge that you might as well start over. That's just my opinion, though.

 

So in short, unless proof is provided, there is no ground-breaking revelations to be had here. It's just business as usual. I am glad to see that Shurah made some changes in the latest release to make the mod more compatible with a few other mods, though. Still waiting to see if he'll be using the script to clear the alias from dead NPCs. This will go a very long way in making ICAIO more streamlined by cleaning up the aliases that aren't used or needed anymore.

@ Nazenn: In consideration of the above, could I ask you if you have had any useful user reports recently on JK Lite - ICAO compatiblity? Going through the nexus comments I can't find many, but perhaps some people wrote you a PM. 

 

Great to read there yesterday that you received some more information from Shurah specifically concerning JK Lite!

 

I guess the only way to really know how compatible the mods at this point is by doing extensive in-game testing?

 

Thanks in advance

[Nazenn]

Shurah let me know in this thread what was wrong with the cities, but support for the towns is still in the air as I'm not doing towns compatibility for a while yet, but when I do it will depend on how much has to be changed around etc. I won't sacrifice the style of the mod and also the quality it brings to the towns for the sake of compatibility with one other file, but I will always do my best to work around it where I can :)

[Nebulous112]

I just wanted to chime in and say thanks to Shurah for the nice update:

 

 

Version 0.2.4

Happy new year! 

- The AIs used by the citizens living in Dark Water Crossing, Loreius Farm and Half-Moon Mill are now fully overhauled. 
- Almost all the AIs used by the Whiterun's citizens, Riverwood’s citizens and by extra horses have been improved. 
- The "Go Home" feature has been improved. Now, if a citizen is too far from his assigned city (if he has one), he won't go back to his town if it's raining or if it's snowing. This has been done to improve interaction with plugins adding extra NPCs. 
- The plugin compatibility has been improved without quality loss. As a result, the patch for Provincial Courier Service is no longer required and some plugins (Beginner's Shack - Starter home ; Fox Cafe_X ; Honningbrew Village ; Skyrim Bridges) which was tagged as being incompatible are now compatible. See the article about compatibility for more details. 
- Due to the change mentioned above, the compatibility patches for OCS and CRF have been rebuild from scratch. 
- Some vanilla bug fixes: 
* During the quest Laid to Rest, the scene in front of Movarth's lair didn't start at the right time, this has been fixed. 
* During the quest, In My Time Of Need, sometimes, the guard who was supposed to talk with the alik'r warriors was missing, this has been fixed. 

Note: Due to the huge modifications which have been done, if you intend to update on a old save game, I recommend you to use the wait menu or the sleep menu for 1 hour or more just after the loading screen, in order to reboot the AIs.

[BUBISHI]

Have just checked Shurahs compatibility list on NEXUS.

 

Cutting Room Floor (Note: only compatible if you use the provided compatibility patch)

 

The STEP installation guide says not to activate the patch when installing Immersive Citizen.

 

Will this produce a mod conflict?

[Astakos]

^IIRC it is incorporated into the STEP Patch.

[BUBISHI]

Thank You.

[BUBISHI]

Sorry, it's me again.

I have just downloaded the new 0.2.5 version. I will wait for the STEP patch update but have one more question.

The installer recommends the installation of  Immersive Citizens - ELE patch.esp because ELE_Legendary_Lite.esp is part of STEP extended. STEPS recommends not to load it because...

 

...it's  incorporated into the STEP Patch? Same answer as above?   

[TechAngel85]

Yes, same. It's incorporated into the STEP Patches.

 

@ALL,

Please note the new version of ICAIO requires a new game when updating due to changes in the update. ONLY install the update if you will be starting a new playthrough.

[BUBISHI]

That's a sad fact, I have read this too. 

But a new USLP version on the way, a STEP patch update closing in...  any informations how long it could take from now on until the STEP patch update is done?

Edited February 12, 2016 by BUBISHI

[TechAngel85]

Could be tonight. Could be tomorrow. Just depends when Ess can get to it. But if the new USLEEP is almost out, it'll probably wait until then.

[BUBISHI]

Thank You, I'll try to be patient 

[Hackfield]

Hi, sorry to ask but, can someone explain to me exactly why can't we just upgrade?

 

This mod was supposed to be script-free and because of that, "safe to uninstall"

 

So, why can't now just go to a qasmoke cell, make a save, uninstall the previous version, load the game, wait a day, make a new save, then install the new version?

[TechAngel85]

I haven't looked into it directly, but certain changes to mods require new games. Shurah has changed enough in this update that a new game is needed for all the changes to take effect correctly. When certain aspects of a mod are saved within a save file and then changes to those aspects are done, this almost always requires a new game. There are not that many mods that require this but ICAIO is most likely going to always be one of those mods at certain points in its development. Hopefully the changes he's made and with the additional scripts, this will not be an issue in the future. I think that is basically the plan with some of the changes he's made; make the mod more compatible and easier to update in the future without constantly requiring a new game just to get the updates...because requiring a new game every time you update your mod every few months is asking a bit too much.

 

Luckily, I haven't had the time to actually start my new game since STEP v2.2.9.2 was released. Unfortunately for others, this will not be the case.

[EssArrBee]

Mator Smash updates cannot come fast enough. :(

 

Also, if you aren't going to start a new game, don't install the update. Your PC won't explode. I promise. ICAIO 2.4 is perfectly stable.

 

I'll have the patches ready to update when USLP updates.