STEP v2.2.9 Official Bug Reports

[obrother]

Do you have any specific examples of this with comparison images or is all this just your thoughts on the matter?

I've looked at the textures/normal maps and it's obvious they are different, so it isn't really just my "thoughts on the matter" but I wasn't planning to provide in game screenshots of the differences as proof.  Anyone who uses these mods and Mod Organizer can see the conflicts and compare the textures pretty easily.  For example, if the rocks in an SRO ground texture don't match the placement of the rocks in the Terrain Bump normal maps, it's pretty easy to see that in an image viewer. 

 

I appreciate the guide and I'm just trying to help out by identifying potential issues as I come across them.  Feel free to ignore me if you don't think it's a problem.

[TechAngel85]

I've looked at the textures/normal maps and it's obvious they are different, so it isn't really just my "thoughts on the matter" but I wasn't planning to provide in game screenshots of the differences as proof.  Anyone who uses these mods and Mod Organizer can see the conflicts and compare the textures pretty easily.  For example, if the rocks in an SRO ground texture don't match the placement of the rocks in the Terrain Bump normal maps, it's pretty easy to see that in an image viewer. 

 

I appreciate the guide and I'm just trying to help out by identifying potential issues as I come across them.  Feel free to ignore me if you don't think it's a problem.

It shouldn't be an issue as we've used it in the form it's in for a very long time now (multiple releases) without any issues.

 

One thing you should be aware of, if you want to help out we always require documentation and proof. Any user that brings up a potential issue should be prepared to provide evidence of issue. We also don't accept, "I looked at it in photoshop" type of answers as proof. Textures always look different in-game due to rendering. Users can't just say, "i think this might be an issue" and then expect Staff to figure it out. Most of the time it will go ignored unless it's a potential major issue because there are only so many of us and we're all doing this project on our free time and around our normal lives.

 

So when posting about issues and anything else such as mod suggestions, etc, please be prepared to go the full mile and see it to the end. Those users that do so are the most helpful to the project as it's as much community driven as it is Staff driven.

[obrother]

It shouldn't be an issue as we've used it in the form it's in for a very long time now (multiple releases) without any issues.

 

One thing you should be aware of, if you want to help out we always require documentation and proof. Any user that brings up a potential issue should be prepared to provide evidence of issue. We also don't accept, "I looked at it in photoshop" type of answers as proof. Textures always look different in-game due to rendering. Users can't just say, "i think this might be an issue" and then expect Staff to figure it out. Most of the time it will go ignored unless it's a potential major issue because there are only so many of us and we're all doing this project on our free time and around our normal lives.

 

So when posting about issues and anything else such as mod suggestions, etc, please be prepared to go the full mile and see it to the end. Those users that do so are the most helpful to the project as it's as much community driven as it is Staff driven.

I understand what you're saying.  In this case the proof really is in understanding the logic of what I'm saying based on how textures work.  Let me try to be more clear...

 

I'm not an expert, but what I understand is that textures come in layers.  Generally there is a color texture, which is the main file, and a normal map, which provides the relief or "bumps".  There can also be other layers, such as a parallax map, a glow map, and others.  The fact, though, is these layers are all components of the same image, which the game combines (and attaches to a mesh) to create color and depth in the world. 

 

The bottom line is that specific normal maps and color textures are created to go together.  Terrain Bump was created to replace vanilla normal maps and go with vanilla color textures, including the HRDLC (the description for Terrain Bump says "this mod ramps up the quality and detail of the landscape vanilla normal maps").  Mods like SRO are not vanilla, they are custom (even if they look similar to vanilla in game, the exact details in the textures themselves are generally different); using a vanilla normal map with a custom color texture doesn't make sense, because their "images" would not show the same details. 

 

So, for anyone who is following the current STEP installation, Terrain Bump is overwriting the normal maps for non-vanilla textures: SRO, HQ Snow, Real Ice, and SFO.  I'm just trying to point out that this seems like a mistake.  These color textures and normal maps that do not match and were not intended to be used together.  Terrain Bump should be used with vanilla textures, like the HRDLC.  Anyone who chooses to use custom textures like SRO should probably use the normal maps that go with the mod. 

 

It's fine if you don't want to take my word for it, but you might want to bring this up or have someone use an image viewer like Irfanview to compare the textures.  While I understand the value of providing screenshots in many circumstances, in this case the issue is more fundamental than how things look in the game, it's about the basics of how the game is put together.  

 

I can think of many reason why this has gone unnoticed.  One is that the effect of the normal maps themselves is subtle, and even if something looks wrong in the game, it would be very hard for most people to identify a normal map as being the source (much less, what the normal map is and what mod is providing it).  Also, many of the textures in question are ground textures, so who knows how much time people spend looking at them, and also some of the textures match pretty close (coastbeach01_n.dds appears to match the equivalent color texture in SRO, so this SRO texture is probably more or less copied from vanilla).  Considering that mods come and go from STEP, there are going to be downstream impacts that aren't immediately apparent.  SRO is the mod that provides most of the conflicts in this situation, so if SRO replaced lots of vanilla-based (e.g. HRDLC) textures when it was added, it's quite possible no one considered the conflict with Terrain Bump.  Also, my sense is that the folks who work on STEP do so as a service, and aren't necessarily going to follow STEP to the letter or change their setup when a new version of STEP comes on line, so many of the people who have the knowledge to recognize and issue like this may not actually be experiencing it. 

 

Again, I appreciate the work you all do here, and I'm not trying to be difficult; I'm just trying to help.  If you have any questions or if there is anything in particular you want to help confirm this, let me know.  I could send or post examples of the textures, but I'm assuming you (or another moderator) would already have them on you computer and could confirm this in just a couple of minutes. 

[TechAngel85]

I understand very well how textures are mapped to meshes and what normals do. I have worked for hours with this stuff for the STEP Female Overhaul. The point here is that SRO is not the change you think it is. When you compare the textures it's basically sharpened HRDLC textures (heaven forbid if Starac ever sees this post of me saying that). Guess I'm going to have to explain this point with pictures...

 

HRDLC  >>  SRO

As you can see the textures are nearly identical. All the important lines, height, and features of the texture are there and is the same.

 

HRDLC >> SRO >> Terrain Bump

Looking at these three you can see that there is no difference in the lines and features which is what you really what to pay attention to because that is what has to match the texture. They all match up to the textures very well. The difference from HRDLC to SRO is that SRO is simply a bit more defined. The difference in the first two compared to TB is simply some of the colors. What you have to know about normals is that the colors basically represent height and detail. The more broad and intense the more defined the texture will appear (of course there is more to it than that but this is normals 101). HRDLC is nearly flat and kinda boring. SRO brings out more of the height and detail of HRDLC by sharping it up. TB takes it even further than SRO but the end result, as far as the "color texture" matching the normal, is the same. They all match both textures above.

 

I'm not concerned about SRO in the slightest because it's textures are all basically the same when you compare them against HRDLC. The only ones I might want to look into would be the the normals that are overwriting other mods besides SRO, like the couple conflicts with SFO.

 

I'll look into it further for those few conflicts that aren't with SRO after I get some sleep.

[TechAngel85]

Just wanted to let everyone know that I'm looking into the issue with Terrain Bump: https://forum.step-project.com/topic/1535-terrain-bump-texture-pack-by-sparrowprince/?p=101078

[z929669]

I have addressed this 'problem' on the mod thread. Basically, we need some screens showing the issues in game. I have never noticed any, and it has been known from the start that Terrain Bump used HRDLC as its source. IMO, it works well with Serious and SRO, regardless of some inconsistencies ... the outcome is favorable in all my experience with the mod ... so in-game screens are important here.

[TechAngel85]

Screenshots have been posted on the mod's thread: https://forum.step-project.com/topic/1535-terrain-bump-texture-pack-by-sparrowprince/?p=101118

[DoYouEvenModBro]

Can someone with give me a one sentence explanation of what's going on with this mod?

[DoubleYou]

Can someone with give me a one sentence explanation of what's going on with this mod?

Normals that do not fit the texture used may look glitchy.

[DoYouEvenModBro]

Normals that do not fit the texture used may look glitchy.

I thought the whole thing with Terrain Bump is that it is supposed to fit the vanilla textures? Or texture packs that are close to vanilla (SRO).

 

I use Vivid Landscapes, which basically overwrite the entire Terrain Bump mod, so I don't know what Terrain Bump actually looks like in game.

[DoubleYou]

I thought the whole thing with Terrain Bump is that it is supposed to fit the vanilla textures? Or texture packs that are close to vanilla (SRO).

 

I use Vivid Landscapes, which basically overwrite the entire Terrain Bump mod, so I don't know what Terrain Bump actually looks like in game.

Exactly, but STEP doesn't use all vanilla textures.

[TechAngel85]

Whatever the outcome of the voting, I will no longer be using Terrain Bump in my personal setup and only keep it in the STEP ones if it stays. I've seen up close what it's doing to a lot of the textures and I don't like it (regardless of how subtle some of it is...some of it is not so subtle tho like that last compare).

[z929669]

Whatever the outcome of the voting, I will no longer be using Terrain Bump in my personal setup and only keep it in the STEP ones if it stays. I've seen up close what it's doing to a lot of the textures and I don't like it (regardless of how subtle some of it is...some of it is not so subtle tho like that last compare).

However, the consensus (or which I am a part) seems to be in favor of keeping this mod in STEP, as it enhances landscapes and 'inconsistencies' to one person are 'enhancements' to others. There is no real concern about Terrain Bump (other than aesthetic and "best practice" opinions), and I think it will most likely stay in STEP. The noted inconsistencies were understood a couple of years ago when we picked up this mod, and the consensus then (as it seems now) was to use it, since it is an overall improvement in the opinion of several of the staff.

 

More info about this mod and further discussion should continue on the mod thread.

[TechAngel85]

What Z said above is completely true. The mod will stay in STEP and it will be a personal preference whether or not any user wants to use the mod.

[obrother]

The STEP installation instructions and STEP Patches both say that Realistic Ragdolls and Force is not required if using the STEP Extended Patch.  The mod Realistic Ragdolls and Force includes meshes that do not appear to have been included in the STEP Extended Patch.  It seems that either the original mod would still be required for the meshes (and the ESP disabled/deleted) or the meshes would need to be included in the STEP Patch.