ACCEPTED Lore-Corrected Races (by TechAngel85)

[TechAngel85]

Discussion topic:
Lore-Corrected Races by TechAngel85
Wiki Link

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This mod alters the races heights based upon established lore to give each race a unique height.

As the author, I'm a bit bias but the biggest question would be how does this differ from:

In a nutshell, Lore-Friendly Race Heights is simply giving you the Oblivion values for the races. However, Lore-Corrected Races attempts to logically gleam the height for each race based upon established lore and what the texts say. As such, the values are not vanilla nor are they Oblivion. In some cases they may be either one, or both, or neither. This also doesn't have the issue of the Bosmer males being too short.

 

[z929669]

I like anything that increases lore-based accuracy (even though i am no lore expert). I'm all for it if it doesn't introduce new issues with clothing/armor/whatever. I assume there is variability by race? So nords may be taller on average, but following a more/less normal distribution within the 'nord' height category?

I read the mod page description, but did not see anything other than size scales (e.g., 1.0) ... so no standard deviation like M: 1.05 (+/- 0.10), F: 1.02 (+/- 0.08)

[TechAngel85]

54 minutes ago, z929669 said:

I like anything that increases lore-based accuracy (even though i am no lore expert). I'm all for it if it doesn't introduce new issues with clothing/armor/whatever. I assume there is variability by race? So nords may be taller on average, but following a more/less normal distribution within the 'nord' height category?

I read the mod page description, but did not see anything other than size scales (e.g., 1.0) ... so no standard deviation like M: 1.05 (+/- 0.10), F: 1.02 (+/- 0.08)

The game doesn't allow random deviations. Just straight settings for all NPCs. There is a height setting for each race and separately between male and females for each of those. So if Nord males are set to 1.05, then all male nords in the game will be 1.05.

No issues with clothing. We were testing Lore-Friendly Heights, but the male Bosmers where just too small. The differences become forgettable after the initial noticing of the changes. But that is sort of the goal with a mod like this. If it's changes feel natural enough that they are passed over, then the mod is successful, imo. In that respect Lore Friendly Height was successful on most accounts besides that Bosmer issue. 

[z929669]

I vote to accept this one per Tech's posts. I admit I haven't tested this, but Tech has (extensively), so I second.

[z929669]

Marking accepted, assuming Tech's tacit agreement.

[z929669]

@TechAngel85 Examining the mod a bit further, I wanted to nitpick a couple of remaining/introduced inconsistencies. I'm not saying you are 'wrong' or that this mod isn't an improvement (it is!), but I am saying that you are not necessarily applying your algorithm as described, so I think you either should make the changes (i.e., due to mistakes) or note that some of your changes are arbitrary (due to personal bias).

As you mention, we have factual data that for humans, females are statistically-significantly shorter on average than males. All good.

For mer races, having shorter females is not a matter of fact, so using lore and historic game "traditional theme" as you call it is all that you can do. For dark elves and bosmer, you have done this consistently, but not for altmer and orcs. There is no lore reference to females being shorter than males, so all we have is "traditional theme", and in both of these cases, you have chosen to deviate in opposite directions. For altmer, you increase the female height in relation to males, and in orcs you decrease female height in relation to males ... but there is no cited lore reference for doing so.

For consistency amongst mer races, I think you should either slightly decrease the height of altmer and dark elf females OR make orcish females same height as orcish males.

For Khajiit, I think your interpretation of lore and nature are just a tad off, and you also deviate from "Traditional theme" for them. This race is typically on the smaller side in all TES games. Also, within a species, agility is usually associated with smaller stature (physics applies: work=force*distance) and lower weight, and for most(?) 'cat' species, there is little to no sexual size dimorphism (e.g., tiger, cougar, cheetah, leopard ...). Obvious exceptions are the lion and the hose cat.

Just my 2 cents. Does not affect my judgement that we should accept this mod "as is"

[Mercury71]

First i want to say i really like the mod and it is now in my loadorder.

Second i have to second @z929669s opinion above.

I dont know much about the world of Tamriel but it is not a universal truth that de difference between male and females must be that the males in most cases are larger than the females. Maby the females are taller then the males for soma races? Among bats and rabbits the females are larger. So maby a mod that makes female vampires larger then the male? :)

[TechAngel85]

First, you need to look at Skyrim and not Oblivion. There is a link to at the top of the page that leads to a mod with Oblivion heights, if that is what you're seeking. I've defaulted back to Skyrim's "theme" when necessary. So that should explain away most of your issues (looking at wrong values). I mention no "algorithm" beyond that. Call it arbitrary, if you'd like.

 

21 hours ago, z929669 said:

@TechAngel85

...and in orcs you decrease female height in relation to males ... but there is no cited lore reference for doing so.

For consistency amongst mer races, I think you should ... OR make orcish females same height as orcish males.

The Orc, I'll give you that one. I can't remember why I made females smaller. We can adjust that one.

21 hours ago, z929669 said:

@TechAngel85

For Khajiit, I think your interpretation of lore and nature are just a tad off, and you also deviate from "Traditional theme" for them. This race is typically on the smaller side in all TES games. Also, within a species, agility is usually associated with smaller stature (physics applies: work=force*distance) and lower weight, and for most(?) 'cat' species, there is little to no sexual size dimorphism (e.g., tiger, cougar, cheetah, leopard ...). Obvious exceptions are the lion and the hose cat.

Just my 2 cents. Does not affect my judgement that we should accept this mod "as is"

I made the Khajiit "mid-sized" human in stature. The only evidence we have for Khajiit are really the game's values. Vanilla values have them as the same size as the smallest of the human races. I based them off tigers because that is basically what they look like in-game. Since tigers are the largest of the "cat" breeds, I deduced the "Khajiit" we have in the game would also likely be among the largest of the Khajiit (Khajiit come in all different sizes and looks, that much we know from lore). Therefore, I made the game's Khajiit slightly larger than the smallest of the human races.

Please reevaluate based on this information and Skyrim values, not Oblivion's.

[z929669]

18 minutes ago, TechAngel85 said:

First, you need to look at Skyrim and not Oblivion. There is a link to at the top of the page that leads to a mod with Oblivion heights, if that is what you're seeking. I've defaulted back to Skyrim's "theme" when necessary. So that should explain away most of your issues (looking at wrong values). I mention no "algorithm" beyond that. Call it arbitrary, if you'd like.

 

The Orc, I'll give you that one. I can't remember why I made females smaller. We can adjust that one.

I made the Khajiit "mid-sized" human in stature. The only evidence we have for Khajiit are really the game's values. Vanilla values have them as the same size as the smallest of the human races. I based them off tigers because that is basically what they look like in-game. Since tigers are the largest of the "cat" breeds, I deduced the "Khajiit" we have in the game would also likely be among the largest of the Khajiit (Khajiit come in all different sizes and looks, that much we know from lore). Therefore, I made the game's Khajiit slightly larger than the smallest of the human races.

Please reevaluate based on this information and Skyrim values, not Oblivion's.

Got it ... yes, I was noting Oblivion's values, as I think they approximate the Morrowind values better and have more variation it seems. Your reasoning makes more sense to me now in all cases ... it was the orcs that I questioned the most, since they deviated from the overall mer pattern. Do as you like, but I would set females to same height as males for consistency.

Thanks for the explanations

[TechAngel85]

44 minutes ago, z929669 said:

Got it ... yes, I was noting Oblivion's values, as I think they approximate the Morrowind values better and have more variation it seems. Your reasoning makes more sense to me now in all cases ... it was the orcs that I questioned the most, since they deviated from the overall mer pattern. Do as you like, but I would set females to same height as males for consistency.

Thanks for the explanations

I'll correct the Orc. From tallest to shortest with this mods is:

• Altmer
• Dark Elf
• Nord
• Orc
• Redguard
• Khajiit
• Argonian & Wood Elf
• Breton & Imperials

[TechAngel85]

Update is up to correct that Orc inconsistency.

[z929669]

Two minor USSEP text forwards I found while going through my rather meticulous patching process. These are tiny changes by the USSEP to those first two records that could be forwarded next update. One removes an improper hyphen, and the other a double space after the period. These are among the 'correct' changes to text made by the USSEP. The hyphen removal is a correction to a clear spelling mistake, while the double space after a period is stylistic but corrects an inconsistency.

I'm inclined to always forward USP records, regardless of 'correctness' just for consistency;

TLDR

Other grammar and spelling changes the USSEP makes elsewhere are NOT correct but WERE originally correct. A good example is one that someone decided to make everywhere without verifying, like:

I'd like to go, too. --> I'd like to go too. (USSEP incorrectly removes the comma in these cases). In other cases, the USSEP incorrectly adds commas or removes them.

Example: stringing two complete sentences together with a conjunction should include a comma before the conjunction ... I remember this from the third grade.

I was going shopping and forgot the potatoes. (incorrect USSEP change pattern)

I was going shopping, and I forgot the potatoes. (correct in the original)

If the USSEP team is going to police the grammar of the dialog, they should really do their homework first.

[Mousetick]

On 12/22/2022 at 4:11 AM, z929669 said:

I'm inclined to always forward USP records, regardless of 'correctness' just for consistency

Off-topic, but what really irritates me are the capitalization style changes USSEP made in 4.2.7 (2022-06-18). So now we have multiple inconsistently styled versions:

• The original vanilla text
• USSEP 4.2.7 and later
• Mods that don't forward USSEP
• Mods that forward USSEP changes from before 4.2.7

I try to forward USSEP changes as often as possible just for consistency too, even if I don't always agree with the changes. As I use a lot of mods that change quest objectives, dialogue, or item descriptions, it gets very tedious.

For users who don't or can't make their own CR patch, it's a complete mess.