LOOT (by WrinklyNinja & Team)

[EssArrBee]

Big changes coming to LOOT with v0.7. Here is the alpha 3 link: https://github.com/loot/loot/releases/tag/v0.7.0-alpha-3

 

THe UI is getting a big overhaul and we need to make sure our directions will be up to date with the new version when it launches.

[Component_Actual]

I can't seem to add any Meta Rules to my LOOT. For instance STEP says to Realistic Water Two should be loaded after BirdsHFClean.esp. However following the Meta Rules instructions once I click only show conflicting plugins the only plugin that remains listed is the RealisticWaterTwo plugin. If I try to move a plugin into the Load After pane without first ticking the "show only conflicting plugins" checkbox the mod I try to drag becomes active instead. What am I doing wrong here. I know I created a Meta Rule once before but I think that time it must have showed conflicting plugins and this time it won't.

[EssArrBee]

You have to click 'show conflicting plugins' or you have to enter the plugin name manually.

[Component_Actual]

I think I forgot to sort with LOOT first, not sure but I was able to get the Meta Rules added, however after I added the meta rules and resorted I got the following problem message in Mod Organizer:

 

"Potential Mod order problem

 

The conflict resolution order for some mods containing scripts differs from that of the corresponding esp.
This may lead to subtle, hard to locate bugs. You should re-order the affected mods (left list!).
There is no way to reliably know if each of these changes is absolutely necessary but its definitively safer.
If someone suggested you ignore this message, please give them a proper slapping from me. Do not ignore this warning
The following changes should prevent these kinds of errors:

• Move Traps Make Noise after Even Better Quest Objectives
• Move Thieves Guild Requirements - No Auto Quest Start Brynjolf after Traps Make Noise
• Move Non-Essential Children after Thieves Guild Requirements - No Auto Quest Start Brynjolf
• Move The Choice is Yours - Fewer Forced Quests - Improved Dialogue Options after Non-Essential Children
• Move When Vampires Attack after The Choice is Yours - Fewer Forced Quests - Improved Dialogue Options
• Move Complete Crafting Overhaul Remade after When Vampires Attack
• Move The Paarthurnax Dilemma after Complete Crafting Overhaul Remade
• Move The Choice is Yours - Fewer Forced Quests - Improved Dialogue Options - Dawnguard after The Paarthurnax Dilemma
• Move aMidianBorn Book of Silence -Weapons after aMidianBorn Book of Silence - Content Addon"

 

Should I follow MO's recommendation or keep the mod order in the left side pane in the same order as they are listed in the STEP guide? Does anyone else get this message from MO?

[redirishlord]

If you have a pure STEP install I believe you can ignore that warning (check STEP documentation to be sure). If you use the STEP Patch, Core or Extended, I believe you can hide or uncheck several of the plugins mentioned in your post (check STEP Patch read me documentation to be sure). I do receive that same warning using non-STEP mods and generally follow its auto-fix changes, unless I'm sure I know better (like placing AFT at the end of the list because I prefer it there).

[Component_Actual]

Well I let MO rearrange the left side pane mods and immediately I noticed something different in game. Previously the Orc who wants you to give him a good death would wear a cloak that would cover his face during cold weather. Not he still wears the cloak but without the facial covering, so I think maybe something about the new order is interfering with open face helmets possibly? Not really sure which mod controls the facial coverings for cloaks. How does your 'Good Death' Orc dress during cold weather?

[TehKaoZ]

Random Question:  Sometimes LOOT randomly decides to shuffle my load order (Like move one plugin two down or two up), The moves themselves don't really seem to serve a purpose as half the time the plugins are unrelated and doesn't change anything in terms of conflict. I'm not really sure why it sorts it one way, and then a day or two later may decide that it has a better way to sort it. Anywho, my question is whether or not this random shuffling will cause any issues with save games? I want to say it should be fine, but figured I'd ask.

[DoubleYou]

It shouldn't cause any issues. This is because of masterlist changes, where they tweak little things. As long as they don't make an erroneous masterlist edit, you should be fine.

[redirishlord]

Well I let MO rearrange the left side pane mods and immediately I noticed something different in game. Previously the Orc who wants you to give him a good death would wear a cloak that would cover his face during cold weather. Not he still wears the cloak but without the facial covering, so I think maybe something about the new order is interfering with open face helmets possibly? Not really sure which mod controls the facial coverings for cloaks. How does your 'Good Death' Orc dress during cold weather?

I believe Wet and Cold adds face covers, and NPCs randomly wear them or other hoods, etc. in cold conditions. I think you're getting expected behavior.

[TehKaoZ]

Thanks DoubleYou

[enkephalin07]

Discussion thread:

 

LOOT is an advanced Load Order Optimization Tool that scans your plugins and suggests a possible load order.

Convention has come to accept LOOT's results as gospel; Mod Organizer always advises on installation order in accordance with it, and has now added a Sort button that, for one-click ease, immediately arranges plugins with no further user input, and absolutely no transparency in what it's doing.

 

After LOOT gave me a few glaring mistakes, I started to educate myself by checking my plugins against the master list, and found so few of them listed. So far, LOOT has only helped as often as it hurt, but the majority of the time it only fixes what isn't broken, and arbitrarily returning an organization illegible to the human eye.

 

As note above, transparency and accessibility are an issue with LOOT's structure. There's a restricted pool of contributors, and a barrier to qualifying to become one -- who wants to open a new account and install new software for one and only one purpose? Under the conditions, who would volunteer one or two recommendations, even when it regards their own mods? Who especially would jump through hoops when they don't have any foreseeable reason to contribute in the future?

[GrantSP]

Once the latest beta of version 0.7 is finished and it becomes the stable version, brace yourselves for a flood of confused users asking why LOOT has done what it has to their load order.

I'll put my hand up and confess I'm not 100% aware of the intricacies of the code but after seeing it perform on my minimal FalloutNV game, I was flabbergasted. Now, not so much.

 

Although the LOOT team were very helpful in setting me straight I still have a lingering doubt in my mind about this major adjustment to the way plugins will be sorted. Not as to the effectiveness, but as to the need for it.

 

What it boils down to, as far as I can make out, is this: For the most part LOOT doesn't need to make changes to the majority of load orders but it does since that is what you run it for.

 

Taking the load order of my game as seen here, it becomes evident that there are no plugins that conflict with any other plugins so for all intents and purposes, ANY order will be correct. pre-beta LOOT, and presumably BOSS, makes changes to this order, if I manually move some, and it will always sort them this way. Beta LOOT also makes changes, in this case it is what is called "Human readable" and it immediately 'looks' wrong.

The human mind, being what it is, sees patterns and quickly makes evaluations as to whether they are 'natural' or not. A near alphabetical order fits the bill of 'not natural', though strictly speaking there is nothing stopping an order of plugins just happening to be in this order, it just doesn't occur very often. (or at all) In my case I jumped the gun and assumed LOOT stuffed up.

 

Let's take a hypothetical example.

We have a collection of mods named A through G. Mods A & B make changes to the same records and we want B's changes so it must load last.

Mod C also makes changes to records that B does, but a different set to A, and we want C's changes so it must come after B. Mod D also changes some records that B does but we don't want those changes so it must go before B. Mod E shares no record changes with any of these mods so it could go anywhere. Mod F changes records that both A & C does and we want these so it must come after both of them. Lastly Mod G changes only one record that mod B does but we don't need it so it can go anywhere before B.

That would mean if all these mods are loaded the order should be something like this:

E -- A -- D -- G -- B -- C -- F 

 

Now if we remove Mod B from the scenario the order is now much more fluid and could be correct in many more formats.

A -- C -- D -- E -- F -- G

or

G -- A -- D -- C -- F -- E

or the one that has the least change from the original

E -- A -- D -- G  -- C -- F

or indeed a number of other permutations.

 

The human mind will immediately look at the first one and assume it is just alphabetical and therefore 'wrong'. But it isn't.

Clearly then we have for years been accustomed by BOSS & LOOT to see orders that 'look' correct when in fact they are only one of many possible solutions.

 

I know a couple of you prefer BOSS and will say, "see I told you LOOT was wrong." After laughing I will respond and say, "no it is just your perception that is making so."

 

What does this mean? I'm not sure. I like change and I like software that works. What I don't like is not understanding how the change is better or how the software works.

Any thoughts? Are these the ravings of a mad man?

[Octopuss]

I think you're overthinking it. Either people trust it or they do not.

I don't even know what will the new version bring (except for new GUI), but I'll just download it and accept what it does to my load order, because it DOES know better than me.

[hishutup]

I was looking at GrantSP's post and I kind of like it but I have to re-read it when I'm not tired.

 

I do not think he is over thinking it because the way LOOT works is significantly different than how BOSS worked. BOSS is easy to understand.

You can boil it down to people "Either people trust it or they do not." 

 

"I'll just download it and accept what it does to my load order, because it DOES know better than me." 

I would say you would have to out smart the application to find a better Load Order. I would encourage everyone to take a look at the mods that they are using.

 

The main downside with LOOT is that patching becomes hard. 

Patches need to contain all of the conflicting records because you can tell is A is before B of A is after B. 

That is another discussion though.

 

 

I haven't taken a look at the new one but I definitely will soon because I need to figure out what all the ruckus is.

[GrantSP]

LOOT, both 0.7 and MO's bundled version, is providing me with a truly weird order when I go to create a bashed patch.

Zeta.esm is placed after the Unofficial Patch and needs to be before it, the UUF3P - FWE is also placed before the FWE DLC plugins and needs to be after them.

 

I really hope I'm not stuffing up something when I do this.