SKYRIMLE Safety Load (by: kapaer)

[TechAngel85]

I would disagree with MT for a few reasons.

 

1: What do you want to test? Its a case of either.. it works or it does not, and this is dependent upon mod lists mainly.

STEP:Core and extended do not stress the engine enough to cause these issues if you follow the guidelines.

 

2: There are still a few issues with it, and due to its technical nature then troubleshooting is not easy... like the graphical artifact issue presented earlier. More are bound to come later on. In general I do not think that any technical solutions should just be rushed into the guide.

 

3: Just like ENBoost, this is another technical change to the engine that should only be required if you want to do advanced modding, since that is the only area where you need the extra buffer in stability.

 

And lastly... what do you want to test! :D

 

I've gotten ILS with STEP when travelling from Skyrim to Solstheim and back' date=' plus when going into various dungeons near Ivarstead/Riften/Ravenrock. No additional mods where installed, but all textures where 2k. So, if ENBoost and Safety Load allow the user to enhance the visual quality of their game even more, then why not tell them what we personally found out through properly testing them?

 

If you're running mainly with all 2k texture then you are not running the recommended STEP and; therefore, could not properly test for STEP. STEP recommends mainly 1k textures for all exteriors. 2k is okay for interiors though. I've been spearheading and writing the MT part of STEP for some time now. Testing can not be properly done unless your install is 100% pure STEP with no deviations in texture sizes or extra mods installed. Deviations in texture options such as color or artistic direction are okay as long as the baseline texture sizes are maintained for said mods. Deviations which introduce extra scripts or larger texture sizes are not permitted if the install is meant for mod testing purposes. This is why MT has mainly been done by the Admins and Senior Staff; very few members are willing to maintain such installs/profiles.

[EssArrBee]

Well, don't we have STEP Extreme still? Wouldn't using all the HQ versions of mods in STEP be testing for STEP Extreme? I still think that is valid input and shouldn't be tossed out. If we need to have something extra for the power users, so be it. The more people we include in STEP the better.

[TechAngel85]

Well' date=' don't we have STEP Extreme still? Wouldn't using all the HQ versions of mods in STEP be testing for STEP Extreme? I still think that is valid input and shouldn't be tossed out. If we need to have something extra for the power users, so be it. The more people we include in STEP the better.[/quote']

Do you see those options on the 2.2.7 Guide? We're moving away from the three tier approach. Since baseline works, so will anything lesser such as "performance options". However, nothing over baseline has been officially tested and therefore can not be recommended by STEP; especially with all the limitations of the engine. There is no way we can know the effects of mod options that are more extreme than those of baseline. As Torm pointed out, he's having issues with pure STEP and just increasing to 2k textures. Only baseline will be used for testing.

 

As Aiyen stated, at most this mod can be "suggested" for those that are having issues as a "possible" fix, but those that are running a pure STEP with all recommendations followed shouldn't have issues unless they're system specific. If there were such issues with pure STEP, we'd be seeing hundreds more bug reports and troubleshooting posts/threads concerning just STEP and not user errors.

[mothergoose729]

Well' date=' don't we have STEP Extreme still? Wouldn't using all the HQ versions of mods in STEP be testing for STEP Extreme? I still think that is valid input and shouldn't be tossed out. If we need to have something extra for the power users' date=' so be it. The more people we include in STEP the better.[/quote'']

Do you see those options on the 2.2.7 Guide? We're moving away from the three tier approach. Since baseline works, so will anything lesser such as "performance options". However, nothing over baseline has been officially tested and therefore can not be recommended by STEP; especially with all the limitations of the engine. There is no way we can know the effects of mod options that are more extreme than those of baseline. As Torm pointed out, he's having issues with pure STEP and just increasing to 2k textures. Only baseline will be used for testing.

 

As Aiyen stated, at most this mod can be "suggested" for those that are having issues as a "possible" fix, but those that are running a pure STEP with all recommendations followed shouldn't have issues unless they're system specific. If there were such issues with pure STEP, we'd be seeing hundreds more bug reports and troubleshooting posts/threads concerning just STEP and not user errors.

There are issues with STEP though. Lots of issues. People report bug threads here and on the nexus all the time, but the diagnosis is complicated because

 

1) some issues are system specific and some aren't, and there is no good metric whatsoever to distinguish between them

2) most people use mods not included in STEP, and that disqualifies their post from being taken seriously as a bug report. 

 

In my own testing with just STEP mods I have found many surprising things about the STEP package to be true. I am not yet ready to publish my results, but I can assure you that STEP 2.7 is far from stable. I can also assure you, that based on my own testing and also based on what has been generally echoed by others in this thread, safety load solves a lot of the problems that are inherent in STEP CORE and even in the vanilla game itself. There are still some troubling things to sort out with saftey load, namely the menu crashes and also, it would be nice to have some inkling of an idea as to how it works. That being said, not including safety load as a default part of the STEP mod package would make about just as much sense as not including the unofficial patches or any of the bug fixes. 

[Nearox]

There are issues with STEP though. Lots of issues. People report bug threads here and on the nexus all the time, but the diagnosis is complicated because

1) some issues are system specific and some aren't, and there is no good metric whatsoever to distinguish between them

2) most people use mods not included in STEP, and that disqualifies their post from being taken seriously as a bug report. 

 

In my own testing with just STEP mods I have found many surprising things about the STEP package to be true. I am not yet ready to publish my results, but I can assure you that STEP 2.7 is far from stable. I can also assure you, that based on my own testing and also based on what has been generally echoed by others in this thread, safety load solves a lot of the problems that are inherent in STEP CORE and even in the vanilla game itself. There are still some troubling things to sort out with saftey load, namely the menu crashes and also, it would be nice to have some inkling of an idea as to how it works. That being said, not including safety load as a default part of the STEP mod package would make about just as much sense as not including the unofficial patches or any of the bug fixes. 

I disagree. I've done multiple installs of STEP and have recently done very extensive STEP:Core testing in particular to ensure proper functioing with my pack vega. The issue is that 1) People need to follow the directions better, and/or 2) the directions are not clear enough.

 

There's nothing standing in the way of stability with STEP:Core, and very little with STEP:extended. The 'bugs' people talk about are in 90% of cases individual mod-related or, as you said, related to non-STEP mods.  And I hate to sound degenerating, but a lot of nexus users seem to throw out their issues at the comment section without examining the problem by themselves for more than a minute. This makes STEP and also mods look worse than they actually are. 

 

Edit: agree with tech's psot below, this is getting off-topic though.

[TechAngel85]

Well' date=' don't we have STEP Extreme still? Wouldn't using all the HQ versions of mods in STEP be testing for STEP Extreme? I still think that is valid input and shouldn't be tossed out. If we need to have something extra for the power users' date=' so be it. The more people we include in STEP the better.[/quote'']

Do you see those options on the 2.2.7 Guide? We're moving away from the three tier approach. Since baseline works, so will anything lesser such as "performance options". However, nothing over baseline has been officially tested and therefore can not be recommended by STEP; especially with all the limitations of the engine. There is no way we can know the effects of mod options that are more extreme than those of baseline. As Torm pointed out, he's having issues with pure STEP and just increasing to 2k textures. Only baseline will be used for testing.

 

As Aiyen stated, at most this mod can be "suggested" for those that are having issues as a "possible" fix, but those that are running a pure STEP with all recommendations followed shouldn't have issues unless they're system specific. If there were such issues with pure STEP, we'd be seeing hundreds more bug reports and troubleshooting posts/threads concerning just STEP and not user errors.

There are issues with STEP though. Lots of issues. People report bug threads here and on the nexus all the time, but the diagnosis is complicated because

 

1) some issues are system specific and some aren't, and there is no good metric whatsoever to distinguish between them

2) most people use mods not included in STEP, and that disqualifies their post from being taken seriously as a bug report. 

 

In my own testing with just STEP mods I have found many surprising things about the STEP package to be true. I am not yet ready to publish my results, but I can assure you that STEP 2.7 is far from stable. I can also assure you, that based on my own testing and also based on what has been generally echoed by others in this thread, safety load solves a lot of the problems that are inherent in STEP CORE and even in the vanilla game itself. There are still some troubling things to sort out with saftey load, namely the menu crashes and also, it would be nice to have some inkling of an idea as to how it works. That being said, not including safety load as a default part of the STEP mod package would make about just as much sense as not including the unofficial patches or any of the bug fixes. 

Echoing some of Nearox...

 

Stable here is a matter of prospective. If you're talking about not a single conflict, then no, STEP is not stable; however, if you're talking about no ILS or CTD then I would say that STEP is stable in its current form.

 

We know about the mod conflicts in STEP. They have been there from STEP's beginning; however, if the Guide is follow the conflicts that can be find in TES5Edit are not game breaking. I and many other run STEP in its current form with my issues. I've thoroughly testing pure STEP 2.2.7 and the only issue I receive is an occasional stutter in heavy areas; of which, is 100% caused by my limited VRAM. I can and have played for hours on end with no issues whatsoever. This can and has been reproduced by other team members and non-team members on various system setups. This, in STEP's current point of view, is stable...conflicts or not. We are; however, gearing up to provide resolution to these conflicts via a "STEP patch".

 

In response to 1 & 2 above:

 

1) This is true.

2) This is not. We investigate all reports in the bug report thread and attempt to get to the bottom of every one. Eliminating non-STEP mods from the installations is one of the first steps to solving such issues. This eliminates the chance that is issue reported is caused by the non-step mod. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. With that said, we do not monitor all the troubleshooting threads for STEP specific issues. This would be impossible as I would guess that at least 95% of those threads are from non-STEP mod issues or user errors. Sifting through the remaining 5% would take the time of a full-time job and I personally already have one of those. These issues will have to be reported to the Bug Report thread so we can look into them. That is the purpose of that thread.

 

I've already read a lot of what you've posted and most pertains to conflicts in TES5Edit which will be resolved by the "STEP patch". When you're ready to post the rest of your testing results I'll look into them fully.

 

This is getting off topic...

 

As for this mod, it will not be recommended until the experienced members can look into it. I'd be extremely interested to know Monty's evaluation of it.

[Quahogs]

After 2 months of a STEEP learning curve I sucked it up and rolled out my 200+ mods and finally... started... to play.   I've been hovering between Riverwood and Whiterun for weeks now and have learned to live with the ILS ALL OVER Whiterun.  Moving in and out of the city, in and out of Jorvascar(sp?) .  Loading saved games.  Brutal.  But I persevere because the game is amazing and I have limited ability and time to troubleshoot.  But this Safefy Load...  unreal.  2 days not one ILS.  

 

It's the real deal.  

Real deal for ILS I suppose since I haven't had any since using this mod.  HOWEVER... once I exited Whiterun and took the road toward Pelagia Farms the CTD's were brutal.  I couldn't get more than 3 minutes in without getting one.   I had to remove it.  Once I did the CTD's disappeared.   I see there's some kind of fix for CTD's and even though I installed the fix the issues remained.  Not sure if I have to tweak the INI to get the fix to work?  If it was just install and go then the fix didn't work for me at all.   

[EssArrBee]

I have to agree with tech, there is no way that you should have any instability using STEP 2.2.7 if you follow the guide to the letter. Even with DSI, EBT, BFSE, and W&C you shouldn't have any problems since there are not major gameplay overhauls and most the textures are 1k. If you are still having issues then I'd bet your system is not up to the requirements for STEP and STEP: CORE only is what you need.

 

I'd also bet that most of the bug reports with STEP and people that have STEP plus some other mods on top, and as someone who answers a good share of the questions around here I'm sure of this. STEP was always designed with the idea that it was a stepping stone for people to add stuff on top of and what STEP packs will address.

 

As for this plugin, I just can ignore the eyeball test. No more ILS with a heavily modded setup, no freezes since I've started using it, and only 2 crashes in two days, both around big battles from Immersive Patrols Battles plugin. I've gone from lots of ILS to zero with my heavily modded profile, I can't ignore that.

[Lanceor]

I think that it is beyond reasonable doubt that Safety Load does get rid of the ILS problem. What needs to be evaluated are its CTDs - the number of CTD reports are too many to be coincidental.

 

My current playthrough is quite stable in terms of CTDs but ILS's are rather frequent. The plugin flipped that around - no ILS but frequent CTD (including a reproducible one in Wolfskull ruins with which I was able to conduct testing). As such, I would not give Safety Load an unconditional recommendation. I'd say to users that they try if they are having ILS problems, and to keep using it if it helps more than harms. It is also a plugin that I would keep it on hand in case I get stuck - loading a stubborn savegame or getting out of Solstheim for example.

[torminater]

Well, I didn't want to step on your toes tech. Those ILS where from before anything remotely concerning STEP Core was even in development, so forgive me, if I have been not clear enough with my statement. And yes, I know exactly what Mod Testing guidelines are.

 

Back to (off) topic: What I wanted to say is, that for some people ILS/freezes/CTDs can appear even when they are keeping straight to the STEP guide. This is just varying amongst all of the systems. I personally didn't have any issues with STEP Extreme plus z-fighting tweaks until Dragonborn hit the market, after that, they were horrific (1.9 patch memory "optimizations" ... yeah :-/ ).

Still, I think that senior members should be allowed to create some verdict on this mod, whether the admins will mark it for official testing or not, and that we may put it in the opening post (perhaps even a wiki-entry), so people coming to our site can easily find what STEP staff think of this tool and what it's limits/pros and cons are.

[whocares7]

Hm I tried this for an hour in all major cities and exteriors around with Texture Pack Combiner enabled/all mods DDSopted manually/, mixed with all other mods of Skyrim Revisited/without Wet n Cold/, Climates of Tamriel, Deadly Spell Impacts plus my own combat pack/ SkyRE, ASIS/Perks,Spells,Potions/, High Level Enemies, Automatic Variants, Apocalypse Spell Package,Dual Sheath, EBD/ ..

I did not receive ILSs or freezes/traveled many times indoor/outdoor/, but crashed with Visual C++ error near Riften.

[TechAngel85]

I think that it is beyond reasonable doubt that Safety Load does get rid of the ILS problem. What needs to be evaluated are its CTDs - the number of CTD reports are too many to be coincidental.

 

My current playthrough is quite stable in terms of CTDs but ILS's are rather frequent. The plugin flipped that around - no ILS but frequent CTD (including a reproducible one in Wolfskull ruins with which I was able to conduct testing). As such, I would not give Safety Load an unconditional recommendation. I'd say to users that they try if they are having ILS problems, and to keep using it if it helps more than harms. It is also a plugin that I would keep it on hand in case I get stuck - loading a stubborn savegame or getting out of Solstheim for example.

This is a killer for this mod and I've already read a lot of the posts over the associated CTDs even with the fix. You can't trade one issue for another and it appears the verdict is 50/50. For some it fixes, for other like Lanceor here...CTDs become more common or even crazy frequent.

Well, I didn't want to step on your toes tech. Those ILS where from before anything remotely concerning STEP Core was even in development, so forgive me, if I have been not clear enough with my statement. And yes, I know exactly what Mod Testing guidelines are.

 

Back to (off) topic: What I wanted to say is, that for some people ILS/freezes/CTDs can appear even when they are keeping straight to the STEP guide. This is just varying amongst all of the systems. I personally didn't have any issues with STEP Extreme plus z-fighting tweaks until Dragonborn hit the market, after that, they were horrific (1.9 patch memory "optimizations" ... yeah :-/ ).

Still, I think that senior members should be allowed to create some verdict on this mod, whether the admins will mark it for official testing or not, and that we may put it in the opening post (perhaps even a wiki-entry), so people coming to our site can easily find what STEP staff think of this tool and what it's limits/pros and cons are.

My toes are tough. I stand by what I said earlier. You and anyone else are welcome to come to any verdict on this mod. Until this mod has proven itself with some detailed reviews I don't see it being marked for testing by myself or the other Senior Staff/Admin. Forgive me but I tread very lightly with mods such as this since ATTK (which got all the rave this mod is getting) and we all know how that mod ended.

[Nearox]

Maybe Safety Load works for 10 levels and then corrupts every savegame on the nexus

[phazer11]

Sure' date=' but just like cleanmem, we do not want to advocate for a utility claiming to do things, we did not check for ourselves. I know of some of our team who've already checked it out, so marking this for testing would just be a bureaucratical manoeuvre. Then those guys can give their reports, we put our assessment of what the tool currently CAN and CANNOT do at the OP and done that is.[/quote']

Sorry but as the others have said I see no way to do a clear, definitive test. Add to it that the mod is still in it's infancy it'd be pointless to test it now as the tests whatever they might be if it were even possible would likely be completely irrelevant whenever an update comes out.

I would disagree with MT for a few reasons.

 

1: What do you want to test? Its a case of either.. it works or it does not' date=' and this is dependent upon mod lists mainly.

STEP:Core and extended do not stress the engine enough to cause these issues if you follow the guidelines.

 

2: There are still a few issues with it, and due to its technical nature then troubleshooting is not easy... like the graphical artifact issue presented earlier. More are bound to come later on. In general I do not think that any technical solutions should just be rushed into the guide.

 

3: Just like ENBoost, this is another technical change to the engine that should only be required if you want to do advanced modding, since that is the only area where you need the extra buffer in stability.

 

And lastly... what do you want to test! :D[/quote']

I've gotten ILS with STEP when travelling from Skyrim to Solstheim and back' date=' plus when going into various dungeons near Ivarstead/Riften/Ravenrock. No additional mods where installed, but all textures where 2k. So, if ENBoost and Safety Load allow the user to enhance the visual quality of their game even more, then why not tell them what we personally found out through properly testing them?

If you're running mainly with all 2k texture then you are not running the recommended STEP and; therefore, could not properly test for STEP. STEP recommends mainly 1k textures for all exteriors. 2k is okay for interiors though. I've been spearheading and writing the MT part of STEP for some time now. Testing can not be properly done unless your install is 100% pure STEP with no deviations in texture sizes or extra mods installed. Deviations in texture options such as color or artistic direction are okay as long as the baseline texture sizes are maintained for said mods. Deviations which introduce extra scripts or larger texture sizes are not permitted if the install is meant for mod testing purposes. This is why MT has mainly been done by the Admins and Senior Staff; very few members are willing to maintain such installs/profiles.

Yes, it is quite annoying I've even been known to enable 2k of certain mods (not all of them and always optimized) because I couldn't stand to look at the baseline versions. I always try to provide multiple resolution comparisons for mods as well though (just see the Cave Compares(you know the 350 compares I did lmao))

 

I'll personally hold off on this mod myself at least until it gets an update or two under its belt and then re-evaluate.

[generalnutt]

Maybe Safety Load works for 10 levels and then corrupts every savegame on the nexus

Well not all :) . I had a play through going very heavily modded. for level 1-10 ILS were frequent, CTD say once every couple hours on average. I was going to toast the set up when safety load came along. I installed it and 15 levels later (level 25), not a single ILS, CTD about the same, maybe a bit less. I did see some artifacts on the menu screen but only after running skyrim for 8 hours with only a couple restarts due to CTD, I think my box was crying for over heating.  Certainly not a balanced test for sure, but didn't corrupt my save in ten levels.