FEEDBACK v1.0 - Feedback & Bug Reports

[DoubleYou]

2 minutes ago, easyrider1988 said:

Oh, why? And which ones?

 

@Liberation, the bed texture is part of Luxor's HD, I have it too.

The dialog records. 

[easyrider1988]

9 minutes ago, DoubleYou said:

The dialog records. 

I don't see any problems with them in xEdit. The records are forwarded or edited OK. Care to explain or point me to some source? Thanks.

[DoubleYou]

1 hour ago, easyrider1988 said:

I don't see any problems with them in xEdit. The records are forwarded or edited OK. Care to explain or point me to some source? Thanks.

Unfortunately the source I have is a Discord comment, so not easily pointed to. This is the relevant quote I have though, from Glitchfinder:

Quote

if a mod edits dialogue, turning it into an esl will prevent the game from playing the voice line.

Some relevant discussion about the issue in the xEdit Discord: https://discord.com/channels/471930020454072348/483468767829950464/1081700480306139248

[DoubleYou]

On 11/1/2023 at 1:08 AM, Liberation said:

Whelp. Figured out the problem texture for my beds is in the "Fallout4 - Textures2.ba2" file of Fallout 4 HD Overhaul 2k, and still occurs after re-downloading.

I even created a profile with that file as my only active mod, started a new game and it's still there. I'm at a loss. I can't imagine. It's not a huge deal, though, to not use that particular bed in settlements. If I find that it bothers me too much, I'll look for another HD textures mod to overwrite it.

After relooking at it in my game, that is the same as I got, just it looks better in the light I was looking at it. I tend to not use that particular bed myself.

[Liberation]

On 11/3/2023 at 4:52 PM, DoubleYou said:

After relooking at it in my game, that is the same as I got, just it looks better in the light I was looking at it. I tend to not use that particular bed myself.

That's so weird. I can't imagine it looks like that on purpose. It looks awful. I could have sworn I put a post asking about it on the Fallout 4 HD Overhaul 2K mod page, and now it's not there. I wonder if it's possible the mod author or an admin deleted it for some reason, or I posted on the wrong mod's page like a goober.

[Taejang]

As the FO4 STEP guide is new, and I've gotten a ton of benefit from STEP guides in the past, I figure it's high time I actually contribute a little to these. Having just gone through it, here are some thoughts/corrections/questions/requests.

• The bottom of the guide, under "Help Build STEP", includes a link to the mod section of the forums. The link is for Skyrim's subforum, not FO4.
• The "Mod List Cleanup" section is fantastic. I really appreciated that little list reminding me which mods need specialized LOOT rules. Despite years modding various Bethesda games, I've never actually made my own LOOT rules; the linked instructions were clear, concise, and appreciated.
• I've never successfully made my own LODs before, only used pre-generated ones. I know the tools are much improved compared to the last time I tried to do this (back in 2012 or something), but I still appreciated the instructions and details given here.
• There are multiple tools covered in direct and to the point detail, which is fantastic. That said, most folks will probably add an extra mod here and there. It is unreasonable to even attempt full tutorials on all these tools, but a one or two line explanation would be, I think, reasonable and beneficial. Here are a few possible examples:
  • The explanations for when to redo the dynamic patches/mods are already included and are a perfect example of what I'm talking about
  • What are the Synthesis patches in this guide doing? Would I want to add any other patches, such as the Clarity one found here?
  • When generating LODs, why does the guide specify to not select some worldspaces? Why would I want to generate LODs for Nuka-World but not Sanctuary? If I added other mods that appear in this list, how would I know whether I want LODs for them?
  • There are many topics not covered in this guide which are relevant. Covering them all is surely out of scope, but a "more information" section with links and a one-line reason to do/not do something would be useful. I'm thinking about Bashed Patches, ESMify (or Persistentify), and Merging Plugins, though there may be one or two other similar topics. ESMify is a particularly relevant topic considering the xEdit team's decision to not support .esp files in Starfield.
  • Item Sorting could really benefit from a "go here for more info" section. I spent hours on this step, which is entirely my own fault (it wasn't STEP's mods giving me issues). Explaining the full intricacies of CIS/FIS/etc is well beyond scope, but a line like "If you add additional mods and have trouble with this step, here are some places to go that might help you troubleshoot".
    • The links/articles/discussions already out there for this topic are scattered, imprecise, or not detailed enough. I'm considering writing an article on this topic, not a walkthrough but an outline of "this is how it works, the steps it goes through, and this is how you troubleshoot a problem". If a member of STEP's team is both willing and knowledgeable on this, I'd love to run it by someone before I make it public.
  • CAO is another tool that could use a line explaining when to use it or not. For instance, why does the guide have us use it on the LOD files and Jester's mod, but not the much larger FO4 HD Overhaul 2k?
  • I already mentioned I appreciate the guidance on LOOT rules. The guide has us create some for specific texture packs (but not all); this is another point where a one or two line explanation would be helpful. "When to customize LOOT rules" kind of thing.
• The "Credits" section is in the guide twice. Additionally, it should probably include a callout to the xEdit team and/or ElminsterAU, or perhaps a catchall "all the developers of the tools we take for granted" kind of line.

Although FO4 is not new, and Starfield just came out, I was very happy to see this STEP guide released right after I finished playthroughs of F3 and FNV. I'd like to point out again how grateful I am for the hundreds of hours it must have taken from however many people to put this and other STEP guides together. Your work is appreciated!

[z929669]

36 minutes ago, Taejang said:

As the FO4 STEP guide is new, and I've gotten a ton of benefit from STEP guides in the past, I figure it's high time I actually contribute a little to these. Having just gone through it, here are some thoughts/corrections/questions/requests.

• The bottom of the guide, under "Help Build STEP", includes a link to the mod section of the forums. The link is for Skyrim's subforum, not FO4.
• The "Mod List Cleanup" section is fantastic. I really appreciated that little list reminding me which mods need specialized LOOT rules. Despite years modding various Bethesda games, I've never actually made my own LOOT rules; the linked instructions were clear, concise, and appreciated.
• I've never successfully made my own LODs before, only used pre-generated ones. I know the tools are much improved compared to the last time I tried to do this (back in 2012 or something), but I still appreciated the instructions and details given here.
• There are multiple tools covered in direct and to the point detail, which is fantastic. That said, most folks will probably add an extra mod here and there. It is unreasonable to even attempt full tutorials on all these tools, but a one or two line explanation would be, I think, reasonable and beneficial. Here are a few possible examples:
  • The explanations for when to redo the dynamic patches/mods are already included and are a perfect example of what I'm talking about
  • What are the Synthesis patches in this guide doing? Would I want to add any other patches, such as the Clarity one found here?
  • When generating LODs, why does the guide specify to not select some worldspaces? Why would I want to generate LODs for Nuka-World but not Sanctuary? If I added other mods that appear in this list, how would I know whether I want LODs for them?
  • There are many topics not covered in this guide which are relevant. Covering them all is surely out of scope, but a "more information" section with links and a one-line reason to do/not do something would be useful. I'm thinking about Bashed Patches, ESMify (or Persistentify), and Merging Plugins, though there may be one or two other similar topics. ESMify is a particularly relevant topic considering the xEdit team's decision to not support .esp files in Starfield.
  • Item Sorting could really benefit from a "go here for more info" section. I spent hours on this step, which is entirely my own fault (it wasn't STEP's mods giving me issues). Explaining the full intricacies of CIS/FIS/etc is well beyond scope, but a line like "If you add additional mods and have trouble with this step, here are some places to go that might help you troubleshoot".
    • The links/articles/discussions already out there for this topic are scattered, imprecise, or not detailed enough. I'm considering writing an article on this topic, not a walkthrough but an outline of "this is how it works, the steps it goes through, and this is how you troubleshoot a problem". If a member of STEP's team is both willing and knowledgeable on this, I'd love to run it by someone before I make it public.
  • CAO is another tool that could use a line explaining when to use it or not. For instance, why does the guide have us use it on the LOD files and Jester's mod, but not the much larger FO4 HD Overhaul 2k?
  • I already mentioned I appreciate the guidance on LOOT rules. The guide has us create some for specific texture packs (but not all); this is another point where a one or two line explanation would be helpful. "When to customize LOOT rules" kind of thing.
• The "Credits" section is in the guide twice. Additionally, it should probably include a callout to the xEdit team and/or ElminsterAU, or perhaps a catchall "all the developers of the tools we take for granted" kind of line.

Although FO4 is not new, and Starfield just came out, I was very happy to see this STEP guide released right after I finished playthroughs of F3 and FNV. I'd like to point out again how grateful I am for the hundreds of hours it must have taken from however many people to put this and other STEP guides together. Your work is appreciated!

Thanks for the feedback. I fixed the link and the Credits redundancy.

I will defer to DoubleYou to address anything else outstanding, since he is the curator of this guide.

[DoubleYou]

5 hours ago, Taejang said:

As the FO4 STEP guide is new, and I've gotten a ton of benefit from STEP guides in the past, I figure it's high time I actually contribute a little to these. Having just gone through it, here are some thoughts/corrections/questions/requests.

• The bottom of the guide, under "Help Build STEP", includes a link to the mod section of the forums. The link is for Skyrim's subforum, not FO4.
• The "Mod List Cleanup" section is fantastic. I really appreciated that little list reminding me which mods need specialized LOOT rules. Despite years modding various Bethesda games, I've never actually made my own LOOT rules; the linked instructions were clear, concise, and appreciated.
• I've never successfully made my own LODs before, only used pre-generated ones. I know the tools are much improved compared to the last time I tried to do this (back in 2012 or something), but I still appreciated the instructions and details given here.
• There are multiple tools covered in direct and to the point detail, which is fantastic. That said, most folks will probably add an extra mod here and there. It is unreasonable to even attempt full tutorials on all these tools, but a one or two line explanation would be, I think, reasonable and beneficial. Here are a few possible examples:
  • The explanations for when to redo the dynamic patches/mods are already included and are a perfect example of what I'm talking about
  • What are the Synthesis patches in this guide doing? Would I want to add any other patches, such as the Clarity one found here?
    • Synthesis patchers make it possible to perform programmatic changes that are typically designed to work with any mod list. These are many times preferred over manually created patches if feasible, as it is more malleable when throwing new mods at it. These can be made by any number of people, and may or may not function well or be desired in your mod list. We do not use the Clarity patcher as it simply pushes out fog for every single cell in the game, even ones that Clarity itself doesn't touch, which may not always be desired. I recommend running any new patcher standalone and observe the generated content in xEdit to see if it is doing something that you want it to actually do.
  • When generating LODs, why does the guide specify to not select some worldspaces? Why would I want to generate LODs for Nuka-World but not Sanctuary? If I added other mods that appear in this list, how would I know whether I want LODs for them?
    • SanctuaryHillsWorld and DLC03VRWorldspace worlds are special cases. Typically you generate for all worldspaces. Typically mod added worldspaces should always be regenerated, but there can always be special cases there too.
  • There are many topics not covered in this guide which are relevant. Covering them all is surely out of scope, but a "more information" section with links and a one-line reason to do/not do something would be useful. I'm thinking about Bashed Patches, ESMify (or Persistentify), and Merging Plugins, though there may be one or two other similar topics. ESMify is a particularly relevant topic considering the xEdit team's decision to not support .esp files in Starfield.
    • I haven't used a Bashed Patch in years, so I don't know the current state of things with it. ESMify I haven't used, but I understand the concept. I don't recommend merging plugins, as that can lead to unexpected issues if the user merges the wrong kinds of mods. I try to avoid adding anything particularly difficult unless absolutely necessary.
  • Item Sorting could really benefit from a "go here for more info" section. I spent hours on this step, which is entirely my own fault (it wasn't STEP's mods giving me issues). Explaining the full intricacies of CIS/FIS/etc is well beyond scope, but a line like "If you add additional mods and have trouble with this step, here are some places to go that might help you troubleshoot".
    • The links/articles/discussions already out there for this topic are scattered, imprecise, or not detailed enough. I'm considering writing an article on this topic, not a walkthrough but an outline of "this is how it works, the steps it goes through, and this is how you troubleshoot a problem". If a member of STEP's team is both willing and knowledgeable on this, I'd love to run it by someone before I make it public.
      • I generally would recommend looking at 4estGimp's stuff on this. If he has it (and he has a lot), then I expect it will be what you want to use to make it all work nicely.
  • CAO is another tool that could use a line explaining when to use it or not. For instance, why does the guide have us use it on the LOD files and Jester's mod, but not the much larger FO4 HD Overhaul 2k?
    • As a mod author myself, it takes a lot of knowledge to understand how this works to your benefit, and where it doesn't need to be used. FO4 HD Overhaul 2k is designed to replace the vanilla ba2 files, and are packaged as such, and do not need to be repackaged in the same way. Jesters Better Destroyed Vehicles mod provides loose textures. In order for the desired textures to be used, we package them into a ba2 archive (Fallout 4 prefers its textures to be in ba2 archives for performance reasons) and add a LOOT rule to sort it where we want in the load order. There are many cases, however, in the guide where we have opted not to archive textures. I don't feel it is necessary to fully optimize your mod list by archiving every small loose texture mod. Yes, it's better, but with the game having a limited amount of ba2 archives it can use before the game will CTD, I find it wise to strike a balance of "is it really worth it to make this a ba2?"
  • I already mentioned I appreciate the guidance on LOOT rules. The guide has us create some for specific texture packs (but not all); this is another point where a one or two line explanation would be helpful. "When to customize LOOT rules" kind of thing.
    • You will typically find that we customize LOOT rules with texture packs that use a plugin to load the textures. By adding rules, we set the order between conflicting texture mods to allow the one we want to be used over the other. Now, there are other reasons to create LOOT rules, such as when adding a mod that isn't on the LOOT masterlist that isn't being sorted optimally. That is a much more complicated case, and requires using xEdit to identify the records/assets being added/modified and how they should be sorted to minimize compatibility issues. Typically, as a masterlist contributor, I handle this inside the Testing stage for a given mod. As a user, you would want to open your load order with xEdit, observe what the mod is doing and what mods have overlapping records, and determine if you need to modify the order that LOOT has provided. Many mods will sort correctly automatically, but there are many exceptions.
• The "Credits" section is in the guide twice. Additionally, it should probably include a callout to the xEdit team and/or ElminsterAU, or perhaps a catchall "all the developers of the tools we take for granted" kind of line.

Although FO4 is not new, and Starfield just came out, I was very happy to see this STEP guide released right after I finished playthroughs of F3 and FNV. I'd like to point out again how grateful I am for the hundreds of hours it must have taken from however many people to put this and other STEP guides together. Your work is appreciated!

My comments are in yellow.

[Taejang]

45 minutes ago, DoubleYou said:

My comments are in yellow.

I love this information. Can it be added to the STEP guide in the appropriate locations? I've adapted what you said and added a little info (a little, most of what's below is a near quote from you), creating what I think would be most vital to a user while keeping it concise. These could possibly be a literal copy->paste operations for you/someone to add to the guide, though I obviously won't complain if further modifications are made before these blurbs are put into the guide.

Spoiler

Synthesis patchers perform programmatic changes typically designed to work with any mod list. When they work they are preferred over manually created patches; however, just like mods, each one may or may not function well in your mod list. Those included here have already been tested. STEP recommends running any new patcher you choose to use by itself to observe the generated content in xEdit to see if it does something you want.

Spoiler

Typically you should generate LODs (object and terrain) for all worldspaces. The two excluded here, SanctuaryHillsWorld and DLC03VRWorldspace, are special cases. If you install extra mods that add worldspaces, they will show up in the list, and usually you will want to make LODs for them as well. If there are issues, you can delete the generated LODs and generate new ones while excluding any worldspaces that had LOD problems.

Spoiler

You may have heard of the concepts listed below. These are not required for the Fallout 4 STEP install. Each has pros and cons. Tutorials on these techniques are outside the scope of this guide; the below information is provided to help interested users begin learning about them on their own. STEP won't provide support for these techniques.

Bashed Patches and Smashed Patches- Can reduce load order size and correct leveled list conflicts, but can also introduce new bugs and adds difficulty+complexity to troubleshooting problems and updating mods.

ESMify and Persistentify- Can provide minor performance improvements with some very specific mods. If used incorrectly, can break dependencies or result in unpredictable behavior.

Merging plugins- not recommended by STEP. Can reduce load order size and make it easier to work with very large mod lists, but can also lead to unexpected issues. Knowing what to merge and what not to merge is difficult. Similar to bashed patches in that this process often makes troubleshooting or updating much more difficult.

Spoiler

The CAO process takes loose textures, packages them into ba2 archives, and makes an .esp file to load them. This provides a performance boost and lets us use LOOT rules to control which textures overwrite each other when multiple mods change some of the same things. The performance boost is proportional to the number of loose textures involved, and Fallout 4 can only load so many ba2 archives before it causes crashing; the mods STEP recommends using CAO on in this guide provide the most benefit, while others are left in their original state. If you add mods outside of this guide and want to know if you should use CAO on them, consider how many loose textures are in the mod and whether those textures are being overwritten by another mod.

Spoiler

Typically, customizing LOOT rules is unnecessary except when we need to control the order between conflicting texture mods to allow the one we want to be used over the other (as we do in this STEP guide), or when adding a mod that isn't on the LOOT masterlist and isn't being sorted optimally. Many mods not in the masterlist will still sort correctly automatically, but there are many exceptions. Sometimes mod authors provide specific guidance (always read the installation notes!). If you have added mods outside of this guide and think you need a custom LOOT sorting rule, open your load order with xEdit, observe what the mod is doing and what mods have overlapping records, and determine what order the mods should load in. Additional information on how to use xEdit can be found here.

Quote

I generally would recommend looking at 4estGimp's stuff on this. If he has it (and he has a lot), then I expect it will be what you want to use to make it all work nicely.

Ironically, it was some of his stuff that caused one of my two CIS problems. I had some Power Armor mods with 4estGimp's patches adding things to the sorter, and the tags weren't going anywhere. Worked fine after I added a dozen~ish tags to 4estGimp's CIS Enhancements tags.ini.

I also had some other mods (unrelated to STEP or 4estGimp's patches) that were being processed twice for some reason. The default settings for "Item Sorter Tags (FIS2)" uses "automatic"; I forced it to explicitly use "FIS" and that solved the problem. Or at least, the CIS generation no longer threw errors and warnings at me; I suspect there may still be issues with one or maybe both of my fixes, but I won't know til I find some of those items in game or directly spawn them in for testing.

Both fixes were easy once I'd spent enough time wrapping my head around what the item sorters do, how they do it, how the files are organized, what the syntax is (simple as it is), and so on. That's why I'm thinking of laying that stuff out clearly in an article on Nexus or somewhere.

Quote

...with the game having a limited amount of ba2 archives it can use before the game will CTD...

What is the limit? Or if you don't know the exact number, is it closer to 50 archives, or 500, or 5000, etc.

Again, thanks for the answers, all very informative for me!

[DoubleYou]

16 hours ago, Liberation said:

That's so weird. I can't imagine it looks like that on purpose. It looks awful. I could have sworn I put a post asking about it on the Fallout 4 HD Overhaul 2K mod page, and now it's not there. I wonder if it's possible the mod author or an admin deleted it for some reason, or I posted on the wrong mod's page like a goober.

The author doesn't like criticism. You will find authors like that, who will then remove the comment. Apparently they like the texture that way. 

[GSDFan]

10 hours ago, Taejang said:

What is the limit? Or if you don't know the exact number, is it closer to 50 archives, or 500, or 5000, etc.

This is in the Buffout4 Config.toml, Default value:

ArchiveLimit = false                # Effectively bypasses the limit on how many general archives can be loaded at once (previously 256).

The FO4 guide does not change this.

I do enable this setting and it will indeed bypass the limit, at what cost I can not say.

[DoubleYou]

50 minutes ago, GSDFan said:

This is in the Buffout4 Config.toml, Default value:

ArchiveLimit = false                # Effectively bypasses the limit on how many general archives can be loaded at once (previously 256).

The FO4 guide does not change this.

I do enable this setting and it will indeed bypass the limit, at what cost I can not say.

It was unstable for me, specifically causing audio crashes. It also doesn't prevent texture archives, when going over the limit, to not be indexed correctly.

[Taejang]

256 archives as the limit is good to know. Is there an easy way in MO2 to see how many are being loaded?

I did a test search in Windows for "*.ba2" in the 'virutal' directories MO2 loads from, but I'm unsure if there are additional archives loaded elsewhere. I'm also unsure exactly what file extensions count against that 256 limit; ba2 and bsa, are there others?

There is a list in MO2, but no count. I also don't know how to interpret the list (some archives are checked, others have green boxes like in the screenshot).

Edited November 8, 2023 by Taejang

[GSDFan]

2 hours ago, Taejang said:

Is there an easy way in MO2 to see how many are being loaded?

There are two ways to determine this:

1. In the right pane select the Data tab, go to the filter at the bottom and filter for ".ba2" and count the results.

2. Launch "Explore Virtual Folder" from the run executable drop down. Explorer++ will open to the Data folder. Go to the View menu and select Details. In the right pane click the "Type" column to prioritize by type. Click until BA2 is at the top. Highlight the first file and scroll down to the last BA2 and shift click on it. It will take a little time, but in the bottom left of the window it will update the items selected.

Both ways reflect the games data folder.

[DoubleYou]

In the future, we may employ this Synthesis patcher to rectify the ba2 limit issue. https://github.com/praecipitator/Ba2Repacker