Rendering Grass-Tree Distance With DynDOLOD Questions?

[mooit]

Hi,

I've spent a lot of time, trying to figure out if what I am seeing is simply just the way it is, or there's something I can do to correct this.

I created a grass cache size of 70, and for DynDOLOD at present I'm using DynDOLOD 3 Alpha 122, LOD4/Billboard4, LOD8/Billboard4, LOD16/Billboard1 for Veydogolt Trees.

At what I thought would be just short distances, I see grass and trees rendering in the distance.

These are my INI settings.

Skyrim.ini
fGrassFadeRange=14128
fGrassMaxStartFadeDistance=20000.0000
fGrassMinStartFadeDistance=400.0000

SkyrimPrefs.ini
[Display]
fMeshLODLevel1FadeDist=7000.0000
fMeshLODLevel1FadeTreeDistance=12288.0000
fMeshLODLevel2FadeDist=10240.0000
fMeshLODLevel2FadeTreeDistance=16384.0000

[Grass]
fGrassMaxStartFadeDistance=7000.0000
fGrassMinStartFadeDistance=400.0000
fGrassStartFadeDistance=7000.0000

[TerrainManager]
fBlockLevel0Distance=98304.0000
fBlockLevel1Distance=262144.0000
fBlockMaximumDistance=393216.0000
fSplitDistanceMult=4.0000
fTreeLoadDistance=108314.0000

Here's a video I made, at around 15 seconds, look up to around 11 oclock at the mountains, some of it pops into view and then the left of the windmill, grass coming into view.

Here's another one with some grass and tress popping into view.

I understand that the game can only render so much, but I would of thought with DynDOLOD at this short of distance, I wouldn't see this happening?

THANKS

Edited April 25, 2023 by mooit

[DoubleYou]

You are noticing that billboards are not a perfect replication of full trees and grass. This is not much you can do beyond making perfect 3d LODs for the trees, and tweaking your grass color/brightness to match more correctly. 

[mooit]

12 minutes ago, DoubleYou said:

You are noticing that billboards are not a perfect replication of full trees and grass. This is not much you can do beyond making perfect 3d LODs for the trees, and tweaking your grass color/brightness to match more correctly. 

 

This is what I was thinking, just limitations here, just wasn't sure if everyone else sees it, or it just depended on what grass/trees you are using.

What grass/tress mods have the best LODs with less of this?

THANKS

Edited April 25, 2023 by mooit

[z929669]

1 hour ago, mooit said:

 

This is what I was thinking, just limitations here, just wasn't sure if everyone else sees it, or it just depended on what grass/trees you are using.

What grass/tress mods have the best LODs with less of this?

THANKS

Grass LOD can't really be compared. As long as the grass mod has grass properly defined in the plugin with object bounds, the LOD adopts the textures and meshes appropriately. If the full grass looks good, the LOD grass will look proportionately the same relative to full grass as any other grass mod.

The variability lies in the grass color, ENB, weather, and if it is complex grass or not. This can all be optimized equally well for any grass mod LOD by adjusting TexGen settings, and DynDOLOD_SSE.ini settings specifically for each grass mod.

All else being equal, if LOD for one grass mod looks better relative to full grass than some other grass mod, it's due to DynDOLOD not being optimized for the worse one.

[mooit]

Well...

I'm using PI-CHO ENB, Cathedral Weathers, Tamrielic Grass without Complex Grass for it, TexGen Direct 100 Ambient 10 for the settings at the moment.

Using different ENB in the past and Cathedral Landscapes, I'd see the same thing, grass popin at short distances too.

I've tried probably 6 different grass and enb mods and various TexGen direct/ambient settings, and I still see this, I've never been able to change this, if anything, just make it less noticeable is all.

The only way I've made it less noticeable in the past, is playing with the fade settings is all.

hmm

The last I remember with DynDOLOD grass settings were these, not sure if they are still the same?

; grass LOD brightness multipliers - applied to grass LOD billboards created from "normal" grass without normal map textures
GrassBrightnessTopR=1.0
GrassBrightnessTopG=1.0
GrassBrightnessTopB=1.0
; make bottom darker to fake shadowing
GrassBrightnessBottomR=1.0
GrassBrightnessBottomG=1.0
GrassBrightnessBottomB=1.0
    ; complex grass LOD brightness multipliers - applied to grass LOD billboards created from "complex" grass with normal map textures
ComplexGrassBrightnessTopR=0.500
ComplexGrassBrightnessTopR=0.500
ComplexGrassBrightnessTopR=0.500
; make bottom darker to fake shadowing
ComplexGrassBrightnessTopR=0.500
ComplexGrassBrightnessTopR=0.500
ComplexGrassBrightnessTopR=0.500

Edited April 25, 2023 by mooit

[z929669]

31 minutes ago, mooit said:

Well...

I'm using PI-CHO ENB, Cathedral Weathers, Tamrielic Grass without Complex Grass for it, TexGen Direct 100 Ambient 10 for the settings at the moment.

Using different ENB in the past and Cathedral Landscapes, I'd see the same thing, grass popin at short distances too.

I've tried probably 6 different grass and enb mods and various TexGen direct/ambient settings, and I still see this, I've never been able to change this, if anything, just make it less noticeable is all.

The only way I've made it less noticeable in the past, is playing with the fade settings is all.

hmm

The last I remember with DynDOLOD grass settings were these, not sure if they are still the same?

; grass LOD brightness multipliers - applied to grass LOD billboards created from "normal" grass without normal map textures
GrassBrightnessTopR=1.0
GrassBrightnessTopG=1.0
GrassBrightnessTopB=1.0
; make bottom darker to fake shadowing
GrassBrightnessBottomR=1.0
GrassBrightnessBottomG=1.0
GrassBrightnessBottomB=1.0
    ; complex grass LOD brightness multipliers - applied to grass LOD billboards created from "complex" grass with normal map textures
ComplexGrassBrightnessTopR=0.500
ComplexGrassBrightnessTopR=0.500
ComplexGrassBrightnessTopR=0.500
; make bottom darker to fake shadowing
ComplexGrassBrightnessTopR=0.500
ComplexGrassBrightnessTopR=0.500
ComplexGrassBrightnessTopR=0.500

Yes, but there's new settings if you keep up with DynDOLOD 3. I explained it in the sticky for the CL-CG mod, but it's also in the DynDOLOD_SSE.ini and the DynDOLOD documentation.

Regardless, you will always get some grass pop-in during transitions more/less depending on time of day, since even the modded game isn't perfect due to game limitations. Setting proper grass load distances via the INI as indicated in the Step SSE guide optimizes things too, but those videos you posted look pretty good in terms of grass LOD transitions.

[mooit]

'grass LOD brightness multipliers' is not mentioned in the sticky you posted.

For now I just left them on their default settings, because I was looking around before, trying to see if there had been any changes I should make different from before.

Before I used 0.500, not sure I remember where I saw the 1.0.

So 0.5.00 from here is still good to use on all of them?

https://stepmodifications.org/wiki/SkyrimSE:Grass_LOD_Guide

GrassBrightnessTopR=0.400
GrassBrightnessTopG=0.445
GrassBrightnessTopB=0.450
; make bottom darker to fake shadowing
GrassBrightnessBottomR=0.200
GrassBrightnessBottomG=0.223
GrassBrightnessBottomB=0.225

I'm using the default grass load distances via the INI as indicated in the Step SSE guide.

Another thing, that grass guide has for NGIO; ExtendGrassDistance = True and False shown which I assumed True was better on a higher end system? If I use True, does it really take a big hit, also, I thought this helped with the render distance?

THANKS

Edited April 25, 2023 by mooit

[z929669]

7 hours ago, mooit said:

'grass LOD brightness multipliers' is not mentioned in the sticky you posted.

For now I just left them on their default settings, because I was looking around before, trying to see if there had been any changes I should make different from before.

Before I used 0.500, not sure I remember where I saw the 1.0.

So 0.5.00 from here is still good to use on all of them?

https://stepmodifications.org/wiki/SkyrimSE:Grass_LOD_Guide

GrassBrightnessTopR=0.400
GrassBrightnessTopG=0.445
GrassBrightnessTopB=0.450
; make bottom darker to fake shadowing
GrassBrightnessBottomR=0.200
GrassBrightnessBottomG=0.223
GrassBrightnessBottomB=0.225

I'm using the default grass load distances via the INI as indicated in the Step SSE guide.

Another thing, that grass guide has for NGIO; ExtendGrassDistance = True and False shown which I assumed True was better on a higher end system? If I use True, does it really take a big hit, also, I thought this helped with the render distance?

THANKS

yes. 0.5 is fine. Basically, setting them all equal and < 1.0 normalizes without bias. I wanted to point you to the new CG/non-CG settings.

[mooit]

9 hours ago, z929669 said:

yes. 0.5 is fine. Basically, setting them all equal and < 1.0 normalizes without bias. I wanted to point you to the new CG/non-CG settings.

Ok 0.500

I was also asking for NGIO; ExtendGrassDistance = True or False?

I was only asking before about the grass LOD brightness multipliers and now I just see only these two sections below.

I'm not using Complex Grass, GrassBillboard6=Internal is the only change I make for non-CG settings?

I see these changes I highlighted, I'm assuming are the new changes you were talking about?

; Billboard templates to use for grass LOD done in static object LOD
; alt1 = without backlighting
; alt2 = with backlighting
GrassBillboard1=Internal
GrassBillboard2=DynDOLOD_flat_2x2alt1_lod.nif
GrassBillboard3=DynDOLOD_flat_2x2alt2_lod.nif
GrassBillboard4=DynDOLOD_flat_4x2alt1_lod.nif
GrassBillboard5=DynDOLOD_flat_4x2alt2_lod.nif
GrassBillboard6=Internal

; Billboard template to use for grass LOD billboards created from "normal" grass without normal map textures
; 1 -> Billboard1, 2 -> Billboard2, 3 -> Billboard3 etc.
GrassBillboard=1

; Billboard template to use for grass LOD billboards created from "complex" grass with normal map textures
; 1 -> Billboard1, 2 -> Billboard2, 3 -> Billboard3 etc.
ComplexGrassBillboard=5 ; DEFAULT=4

; glowmap and backlighting mask textures replacements if corresponding texture slot is set by used grass billboard NIF
; 0 = keep texture defined in billboard NIF
; 100 = textures\white.dds
; other values generate and use a 4x4 pixel grayscale texture with RGB = 255 * value / 100
GrassGlowMap=0
GrassBacklightMask=0
ComplexGrassGlowMap=0
ComplexGrassBacklightMask=25 ; DEFAULT=0

If I'm not using ComplexGrass, what about changing these settings? GrassGlowMap=0
GrassBacklightMask=0

THANKS

Edited April 25, 2023 by mooit

[z929669]

3 hours ago, mooit said:

Ok 0.500

I was also asking for NGIO; ExtendGrassDistance = True or False?

I was only asking before about the grass LOD brightness multipliers and now I just see only these two sections below.

I'm not using Complex Grass, GrassBillboard6=Internal is the only change I make for non-CG settings?

I see these changes I highlighted, I'm assuming are the new changes you were talking about?

; Billboard templates to use for grass LOD done in static object LOD
; alt1 = without backlighting
; alt2 = with backlighting
GrassBillboard1=Internal
GrassBillboard2=DynDOLOD_flat_2x2alt1_lod.nif
GrassBillboard3=DynDOLOD_flat_2x2alt2_lod.nif
GrassBillboard4=DynDOLOD_flat_4x2alt1_lod.nif
GrassBillboard5=DynDOLOD_flat_4x2alt2_lod.nif
GrassBillboard6=Internal

; Billboard template to use for grass LOD billboards created from "normal" grass without normal map textures
; 1 -> Billboard1, 2 -> Billboard2, 3 -> Billboard3 etc.
GrassBillboard=1

; Billboard template to use for grass LOD billboards created from "complex" grass with normal map textures
; 1 -> Billboard1, 2 -> Billboard2, 3 -> Billboard3 etc.
ComplexGrassBillboard=5 ; DEFAULT=4

; glowmap and backlighting mask textures replacements if corresponding texture slot is set by used grass billboard NIF
; 0 = keep texture defined in billboard NIF
; 100 = textures\white.dds
; other values generate and use a 4x4 pixel grayscale texture with RGB = 255 * value / 100
GrassGlowMap=0
GrassBacklightMask=0
ComplexGrassGlowMap=0
ComplexGrassBacklightMask=25 ; DEFAULT=0

If I'm not using ComplexGrass, what about changing these settings? GrassGlowMap=0
GrassBacklightMask=0

THANKS

I haven't tested without CG, but These are all new settings that impact grass lighting. Play with them to see what you get.

[mooit]

I forgot to ask, anything commented out ;  like the

; alt1 = without backlighting
; alt2 = with backlighting

If I want to use either of these alt, I need to uncomment them? Wasn't sure if they are simply just auto assigned...

When it comes to the TexGen Direct Ambient, overall, I'm not sure between the two, the best way to adjust between them to make grass match the best in all hours/weather etc... Like I know Direct is always higher than Ambient, of course the weather, grass and enb, all I'm assuming come into play.

So with PI-CHO ENB, Tamrielic Grass (No CG), Azurite Weathers, I'm getting ready to test in TexGen; 50 Direct 15 Ambient.

One of the most difficult challenges I've been trying to overcome, is when it's either crack of dawn, early morning, or later in the day, 5pm-7pm, the distance grass is always a lot darker, the realism/ambience of this just throws the look off, because in real life, I've never noticed grass out in the distance to have such a variation like this. So maybe this is just a limitation of things, or there is a way to keep the colors more consistent in the distance regardless of time of day or weather? hmm ;/

Here's a screen shot 6am at Whiterun, now is this an accurate representation of the distance/near colors, matching? It just seems like the distance shouldn't be so dark, if correctly matched?

THANKS!

Edited April 26, 2023 by mooit

[z929669]

11 hours ago, mooit said:

I forgot to ask, anything commented out ;  like the

; alt1 = without backlighting
; alt2 = with backlighting

If I want to use either of these alt, I need to uncomment them? Wasn't sure if they are simply just auto assigned...

When it comes to the TexGen Direct Ambient, overall, I'm not sure between the two, the best way to adjust between them to make grass match the best in all hours/weather etc... Like I know Direct is always higher than Ambient, of course the weather, grass and enb, all I'm assuming come into play.

So with PI-CHO ENB, Tamrielic Grass (No CG), Azurite Weathers, I'm getting ready to test in TexGen; 50 Direct 15 Ambient.

One of the most difficult challenges I've been trying to overcome, is when it's either crack of dawn, early morning, or later in the day, 5pm-7pm, the distance grass is always a lot darker, the realism/ambience of this just throws the look off, because in real life, I've never noticed grass out in the distance to have such a variation like this. So maybe this is just a limitation of things, or there is a way to keep the colors more consistent in the distance regardless of time of day or weather? hmm ;/

Here's a screen shot 6am at Whiterun, now is this an accurate representation of the distance/near colors, matching? It just seems like the distance shouldn't be so dark, if correctly matched?

THANKS!

Those are just descriptions of the effects in each of the four GrassBillboard2-GrassBillboard4 billboards that can be used for non-CG and CG grasses. Step uses CG, so we set ComplexGrassBillboard=5:

; Billboard template to use for grass LOD billboards created from "normal" grass without normal map textures
; 1 -> Billboard1, 2 -> Billboard2, 3 -> Billboard3 etc.
GrassBillboard=1

; Billboard template to use for grass LOD billboards created from "complex" grass with normal map textures
; 1 -> Billboard1, 2 -> Billboard2, 3 -> Billboard3 etc.
ComplexGrassBillboard=5

 

[mooit]

Ok on the descriptions...

I had some other questions I was asking in that last post, if you could please be so kind, with trying to match colors with Texgen Direct/Ambient...

Also, even though I have the colors right now matched somewhat ok, it's the fact that the distance view of grass POPS into view, not slowing fading in. I thought with the fade options, you can make it subtly fade into view, not just pop?

For the fade I have these settings;

Skyrim.ini
fGrassFadeRange=14128

SkyrimPrefs.ini
[Grass]
fGrassMaxStartFadeDistance=6144.0000
fGrassMinStartFadeDistance=0.0000
fGrassStartFadeDistance=6144.0000
 

THANKS

Edited April 26, 2023 by mooit

[z929669]

On 4/25/2023 at 7:55 PM, mooit said:

I forgot to ask, anything commented out ;  like the

; alt1 = without backlighting
; alt2 = with backlighting

If I want to use either of these alt, I need to uncomment them? Wasn't sure if they are simply just auto assigned...

When it comes to the TexGen Direct Ambient, overall, I'm not sure between the two, the best way to adjust between them to make grass match the best in all hours/weather etc... Like I know Direct is always higher than Ambient, of course the weather, grass and enb, all I'm assuming come into play.

So with PI-CHO ENB, Tamrielic Grass (No CG), Azurite Weathers, I'm getting ready to test in TexGen; 50 Direct 15 Ambient.

One of the most difficult challenges I've been trying to overcome, is when it's either crack of dawn, early morning, or later in the day, 5pm-7pm, the distance grass is always a lot darker, the realism/ambience of this just throws the look off, because in real life, I've never noticed grass out in the distance to have such a variation like this. So maybe this is just a limitation of things, or there is a way to keep the colors more consistent in the distance regardless of time of day or weather? hmm ;/

Here's a screen shot 6am at Whiterun, now is this an accurate representation of the distance/near colors, matching? It just seems like the distance shouldn't be so dark, if correctly matched?

THANKS!

The 'alt' backlight settings we've been discussing mitigate the LOD lighting issues. LOD has no shadows and reacts a bit differently to light. You will just need to read the INI descriptors again and test using different values. We use CG grass and allow the backlight to have 25% effect.

; glowmap and backlighting mask textures replacements if corresponding texture slot is set by used grass billboard NIF
; 0 = keep texture defined in billboard NIF
; 100 = textures\white.dds
; other values generate and use a 4x4 pixel grayscale texture with RGB = 255 * value / 100
GrassGlowMap=0
GrassBacklightMask=0
ComplexGrassGlowMap=0
ComplexGrassBacklightMask=25 ; DEFAULT=0

[mooit]

Ok, so besides TexGen Direct/Ambient, just play with these 2 if non-cg?

GrassGlowMap=0
GrassBacklightMask=0

And, if ComplexGrassBacklightMask=25, is 25 also a good starting point with GrassBacklightMask=25?

THANKS

[z929669]

15 minutes ago, mooit said:

Ok, so besides TexGen Direct/Ambient, just play with these 2 if non-cg?

GrassGlowMap=0
GrassBacklightMask=0

And, if ComplexGrassBacklightMask=25, is 25 also a good starting point with GrassBacklightMask=25?

THANKS

You must test that. I have not tested with non-CG grass. Try setting GrassBillboard=3 or 5 to make use of backlighting at 0 and 100. Test again using the one without backlight.

Read the INI and make adjustments likewise. The documentation explains it even more.