TechAngel85

Good job but we need vanilla and STEP in those compares. Always include vanilla and current STEP when doing any compares. That was we know that the original looks like, what we're currently using looks like and what the new mods look like compared to those.

Gemling Solid. Can't really tell the difference between the solid and transparent anyway.

Enjoy it while it lasts! I'll probably never be able to do that again. Full-time worker, all year round!

I have to agree with DY on this one. Until that horrible UV mapping (or whatever) is fixed, this is a no go. The bad thing is, the textures are good. The author just needs to fix those meshes. It's not apparent on vanilla because the vanilla texture is as equally as bad as the mesh is (or maybe it's not seeing the recent fix on the cave meshes made the vanilla texture 10x better).

I would appear EssArrBee had a lot of time on his hands today. Busy little bee all over the forums today!

I'm actually not a fan. The glass is terrible and they seem too bright to the point they don't fit in with the rest of the texture in the game at some points. VW is Core and these would not be because they are far too different from vanilla. I don't think we need two different window mods in STEP (one for Core and one for Extended). I will have to try them out in-game before I can cast my final verdict.

My vote is on Gemling.

Need compare of all three together but I'm sure that I'll be going with Gemling.

Looking forward to when this is out of beta and running. Would love for it to replace SDO, aka the framerate killer.

This is an interesting issue. Look here: https://forum.step-project.com/topic/5011-beta-dynamic-distant-objects-lod/?p=80996 With none of the ESPs active in that area framerate returns to normal; however, there was no quality loss. I'll have to take a look to see what exactly those ESPs are doing because they're not affecting that area visually, but yet tanking the framerate.

Make sure there is a thread for the mod and promote it! Might be a good idea. I'd have to test. You can keep the name the same. You'll just have to use ( & ) instead of just ( & ).

@NamtrahjI believe you are correct in your assumptions. As for 3DNPC, the best solution is to simply create a separate mod directly under it for the updates. @DocClox We're planning on submitting a few reports to the LOOT team. @OthersI just finished reordering the mod list to reflect a BSA+ESP plugin priority for STEP 2.2.9. It would seem that it's not that big of an issue. Yes, mods are not within their sections but at least 50% of them had no conflicts so it didn't matter where they were placed. The other 50% seem to have kept the conflict priority set up by the Guide. I did have to move Distant Decal Fix and Consistent Older People above the USkP to maintain those conflict resolutions. The only one I'm not 100% certain about are Follower Safety and Traps Make Noise. The have be switched so the conflicts have been switched as well (I think it's a script conflict; however, I followed MO's PMOP in this suggestion). Speaking of PMOP, reordering the BSAs in this manner also resolved all PMOP issues but one, "Move aMidianBorn Book of Silence after Non-Essential Children - Hearthfire". This is fairly impossible to do and keep the conflict resolution of the STEP Guide.So, even though the mods aren't maintained in their "tidy" order, I see no real issues with Tannin's compromised solution if it works out like I have the list ordered.

Nope, the Campfires plugin was conflicting with Dynamic Fires but we've dropped Dynamic Fires so all is good. It's just a performance heavy mod.

I'm not too concerned right now about the categories as I am the mod order. The categories are a way that we can keep things "tidy" but still resolved conflicts in the proper manner. The mods are in a specific order on the Guide for conflict resolution purposes. Everything below the Conflicting Graphics section is meant to overwrite assets from this section. Where you find a mod not in alphabetical order (AOS, Non-Essential Children, etc), those mods are place there to overwrite assets from mods that are above them on the Guide. The whole Guide would have to be arranged to compensate for the auto-sort. The only way to know how that will work is by doing it I suppose, so I'll work on a new profile that is arranged according to plugin order, where BSA's are involved. The loose assets I'll leave in their proper order and we'll see how this goes. Thanks for clearing some of that up for me.

You haven't been around that long but "installation order" is a term frequently used around here from the STEP Guide. I understand what you are saying; however, anyone that follows the STEP Guide in order will have the proper "mod order" set up automatically (meaning there is no need to move mods around unless you accidentally skipped a mod or something) because they "installed" the mods in the order they are on the Guide; thus, having the proper "mod order" already set up. I just did this today for 2.2.9 sooo...yeah. I just finished installing 2.2.9 today and there are none as of yet. All files we instruct to be hidden are either already in loose file format or are available to download in this format. I don't think that would be ideal. We'd most likely want the sorting on the mods that have PMOP errors which is one of the main reasons of doing the auto-sorting in the first place. Disabling the sorting on all mods but the UPs would be counter intuitive to this. It was my understanding that ALL mods with plugins would be auto-sorted by default, not just the ones with a BSA+ESP combination. Perhaps is read or understood incorrectly.

Middle pane? I have a left and right pane...no middle. :O_o: Btw, I'm using installation and mod order interchangeably here.

I don't... but I do now!

Sweet!!! This a trial or is it really free?

@Z, Here is the final version of this FOMOD. It's been completely wrote from scratch and has William's edits in as well. The file structure is BAIN compatible so this should be used for the start of the All-in-One installer. I'll take a look at the wizard if I have time, but for now the FOMOD is working flawlessly as far as I can tell. I've renamed the wizard so that it won't open for WB users because in its current state, it will not work properly. File: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1_Nlyy2ueu0a3F6MUEyUnhpclE/edit?usp=sharing

Farmhouse texture are currently up for testing for 2.2.9. I'll add these to that mix.

First off, we specifically tell users that they can't use NMM with the STEP in the STEP Guide. They have to use MO or WB and preferably MO. NMM is not powerful enough to handle the complexity of STEP; therefore, I say that point would be moot from a NMM perspective because we'd be instructing them to switch to MO. From the 2.2.9 Guide: "STEP now officially supports only Mod Organizer for reasons stated in the guide introduction. Although Wrye Bash is a mod manager, STEP recommends that it only be used as a helper application to Mod Organizer exclusively for the functionality of the Bashed Patch. The reason for the limited support of Wrye Bash is due to simplicity of this guide. Users who wish to use Wrye Bash can easily use that mod manager to install and maintain STEP. Wrye Bash users can use the Wrye Bash Guide for detailed instructions on setting up that exceedingly excellent modding utility package." Second, several of the Team is currently testing STEP in a non-extracted BSA setup. One of the main reasons, we recommended BSS extraction came from the WB days. It is more necessary when using WB. With MO, this is not the case so that recommendation will likely be removed. The ONLY time we're going to recommend BSA extraction will most likely be for mods that need assets hidden so that a lower priority asset can win the conflict. The fact is, some of the auto sorted mod will still not follow the sections of the guide. From my current LOOT sorted setup, I would end up with Landscape mods in Fixes and Fixes mods in Gameplay. Undoing the Auto-sorting on all of these mods would fix this issue but cause another one. If the mod location is tied to the plugin location, then manually sorting any mods would mess up the LOOT sorted plugins (because if you move the mod, you move the plugin). The only way this would work for STEP is if the bonded relationship between mod location and plugin location could be broken when toggling the auto-sort off for those mods. That way we could move the mod's installation location around while the plugin stays where it's suppose to be (as it is now in MO). This feature of breaking that relationship is essential and has been brought up by several users, not just Staff. Many seem to be against this whole idea of tying the two together though. I suspect there will be a lot of "before running LOOT select all mods, toggle auto-sorting off, now run LOOT, now move mod XYZ to this location, etc etc". That why MO will function mainly as it is functioning now. As for STEP, we'd have to come up with some workarounds on the Guide due to all the mods that would be moved around by the auto-sort, but it could work. Personally, I agree with the others. This isn't the best solution from the user viewpoint. This would mainly be helpful for no-nothing beginners just getting into the modding world, which imo is the minority group of your user base. Typically one would do what is best towards the majority group and the minority would simply have to learn. STEP is as much as about teaching newbie modders how to mod and use tools as it is for advanced modders who simply want a starting point. I would personally rather see the DLCs be added into the mod list (in whatever fashion) which would solve this entire problem and then drop the auto-sort idea. I know you're not exactly for that solution because the auto-sort would solve the issues from the PMOP; however, the majority here have voiced this to be the best solution from the modder viewpoint. Any feature that will automatically move the mods around could potentially break the STEP Guides because STEP is based on install order (not plugin order) for conflict resolution reasons. Plugin order has always been handled independently from install/mod order via BOSS (now LOOT) and have never before been tied together. Anything that will take away or alter an install order priority will cause some issues for the Guides, as I've explained above and more below. With that said, I do understand your reasoning for the solution you are proposing and if it's implemented, STEP will figure out a way to work around it. Though the very structure of the Guide may have to change to not be so heavily dependent on install order. There hasn't been any discussion on this by the Staff yet. Here is where you are mistaken because mod order is completely relevant, especially for STEP! Take SMIM for example. It's not a BSA but some 5 (I think) ESPs. If the mod is placed where the first ESP is sorted, that might be okay, but it might not be either. There are many mods that are SMIM compatible (mainly textures). A user may want to overwrite the SMIM asset with the SMIM compatible mod (which also contains a auto-sort plugin) of his/her choice because they prefer that style over the SMIM style; however, if the SMIM loose assets are loaded after the users choice assets, because the auto-sort feature put it there, then you'll be breaking asset priority that was intentionally set by the user. This forces the user to manually sort these mods (how many newbies are going to know how to resolve these conflicts?). Again, the manual sort would have to break the mod/plugin location or the LOOT order would be thrown off by these manual sorts. Mod order is very important in modding! Sorry about the book...but I hope I covered everything clearly.

Just out of pure curiosity, I did a comparison from the Fixes section of the STEP Guide with MO now vs the new method. Here what I came up with: Mod List for MO Now >>>>>>>> Mod List for MO new method Appropriately Attired Jarls....................Unofficial Skyrim PatchArgonian Decapitation Fix....................Unofficial Dawnguard PatchBowlegged Jump Fix............................Unofficial Hearthfire PatchBrawl Bugs Patch................................Unofficial Dragonborn PatchClothing and Clutter Fixes....................Skyrim Project OptimizationConsistent Older People.......................Appropriately Attired JarlsCultist Mask Decapitation Fix................Argonian Decapitation FixDead Body Collision.............................Bowlegged Jump FixDistant Decal Fix.................................Brawl Bugs PatchDouble Cursor Fix...............................Cultist Mask Decapitation FixFast Travel Timescale Fix......................Dead Body CollisionFuz Ro Doh........................................Guard Dialogue OverhaulGuard Dialogue Overhaul.....................Distant Decal FixRagdoll Paralysis.................................Double Cursor FixSkyrim -Elys- AltF4.............................Fuz Ro DohSkyrim Project Optimization.................Ragdoll ParalysisSmart Souls.......................................Skyrim -Elys- AltF4Trade And Barter - Hearthfire...............Consistent Older PeopleUnofficial Skyrim Patch.........................Smart SoulsUnofficial Dawnguard Patch...................Trade And Barter - HearthfireUnofficial Hearthfire Patch.....................Weapons and Armor FixesUnofficial Dragonborn Patch..................Clothing and Clutter FixesWeapons and Armor Fixes....................Realistic ForceRealistic Force.....................................Fast Travel Timescale FixXP32 Maximum Skeleton......................XP32 Maximum Skeleton The new list is simply a best guess-timation by taking the mod list and rearranging it to plugin priority. Mods that had no plugin were simply placed in the list where they were installed. You can see how huge of a difference the lists are. Now imagine putting in all the STEP sections. Mods would be all over the place and not sticking to their sections as the Guide lays them out. I've finished through the Landscape section of the Guide and I have to admit that I'm not liking what I'm seeing if these two things (mod list and plugin list) were merged and tied to one another as the new method suggestions. (Strictly speaking from the viewpoint of what in the world would we do with the Guide to compensate).

Installing my test setup for 2.2.9 and using MO 1.2.1. Loot is working great but this brings up another issues with tying the mod list and the plugin list together. Why about mod which have mulitple ESP files (plugin) which Loot sorts in different locations. One of these mods that nearly every single modder will have is SMIM. For the STEP user, we'll intergrate those ESPs into the STEP Patches; however, what about everyone else? The mod can't be in five different locations at once. How would these mods be handled if the two lists are tied together?

The documentation is present on each of the individual mod pages here on the forum. We do extensive testing in order to achieve a specific result (what we feel is the best result). Mod author's installation instructions/notes are always taken into account and is usually followed. I also, believe going forward we will not be recommending extraction of BSAs unless we're needing to hide assets within that BSA (unless you can come up with a way to do this without extraction ). Regardless I wasn't implying anything regarding BSA extraction. I just needed to know if the mods were going to be moved around with the plugins. As for the reason STEP recommends a specific installation order, it is to achieve a specific result so that specific assets of one mod will overwrite assets of another mod (personal choices as you put it, but that how the STEP Guide works). This applies to the entire 2.F section of the guide as well as any mod in the Guide that isn't in alphabetical order. Those mods have been specifically place at their location in the Guide in order for specific conflict resolution. This has always been how STEP achieves it's results. As to this new method's effect on the STEP Guide, that can not be discovered without testing the method out. It may or may not cause issues with section 2.F of the guide as well as the other mods that have been specifically placed. One thing I know it would cause issue with is the sections themselves. Gameplay mods would end up in the Animation section, Fixes mods could end up down in the Gameplay area, etc etc. This would force us to rethink and possibly reorder the entire STEP Guide because the sections would no longer stay together as a group. This is not a huge issue, but it will force us to rethink our management of mods and the Guide. Section N (coming in the next release), which needs to be loaded close to if not at the end of the plugin list, might have some issues as well. This... but WB's mod order and plugin order isn't tied together. They are independent from one another. (can't say for NNM but I'm pretty sure those are independent there as well). MO would be the only manager to tie these together. I'm not sure how the community as well as long-term users (who have no knowledge of this thread and discussion) would receive this new behavior. I do see the merit in it, without a doubt!. I simply have some STEP management concerns with it and how things will fall into place. It's hard to tell how the management would work out at this point.

There is a lot of information being tossed around about this possible new method. I've mainly been reading and keeping up with the thread and watching how things develop; however, I have a very specific question regarding STEP and this new method. If you look at the STEP Guide, installation order (left pane) of mods is very important for STEP to handle proper conflict resolution in order to get the desired outcome. This has been an very important part of STEP since day one. What would this new method specifically mean for this installation order? Having a plugin order (right pane) which controls the mod order (left pane) could essentially break the STEP Guide. Very specifically will the plugin order (right pane) move mods around in the (left pane)? If so, I can see potential issues with the STEP Guide as well as any user specific mod order to handle conflict resolution in a specific way If this is true, you're basically saying we'd be able to manually sort specific mods when needed; however, if the left pane and right pane are tied together in a way that if you move a mod in the left pane its plugin in the right pane also moves, this will create yet another issue of plugin conflicts that would have not existed when then two panes could be managed independently. The only way around this issue would to do yet another step of creating a list for LOOT to order them in the proper way. I could be completely misunderstanding this whole thing but if I'm not, the new suggested method would seem to create a lot of unnecessary issues for users who aren't just "plug and play" users. Which when you think about it, how often do most of these "plug and play" users remain only that? Very few I would think. Most of these users, more than likely, become more advanced users over time who would eventually run into the issues described above. Long post to simply ask, will the plugin order (right pane) move mods around in the (left pane) by default? If so, will we be able to turn off this default behavior so they can be managed independently?