TechAngel85

So what you're saying is that if activated, users can actually deactivate all of these: imp_helm, imp_helm_dawn, and imp_helm_dbrn ...as long as Legendary is used? Also, I have: imp_help_dbrn.esp not imp_helm_dbrn.esp

FemFeet is included in both XCE and WSCO. You're mentioning it separately which makes my think you're using it separately. If we use either one of those as a base, then including FemFeet separately would be redundant. As far as bases go, XCE and WSCO should be identical in the shape and size because they're both using vanilla as a base for their mods. WSCO does have UNP options though. XCE simply has a few extra mods incorporated into it than WSCO at this time. XCE might be the better option for STEP right now; however, I will be keeping my eye on WSCO and offering up suggestions to the author (if he/she ever returns). I predict that if the author will take the right steps and make the right choices, then WSCO could be a complete mod for STEP; eventually replacing all mods for both male and female with one install. It has a lot of potential, but needs a bit more work to get it there.

What you're saying is perplexing my brain...it's contradictory. "Don't leave the choice to the user. Users can opt for different choices" ... What is tedious about it if the alternative mods are simply mentioned on the mod page? It shouldn't be an issue and exactly how many people are going to search the forums to find this thread? haha! Very few... It's better to tell them which options work rather than getting dozens of posts about "this skin isn't working". If we tell them what is known to work on the guide then we're circumventing a lot of these troubleshooting posts. This should be the point of the guide when user preference varies so greatly...(such as with skin textures(some want dirty some want pretty) ) and it's the reason some choices have already been left up to the user on some mods in STEP because the choice ultimately doesn't affect the game and all choices are essentially STEP friendly.

I think we can pick the top three and then move on to in-game compares of those. These seem to be WSCO, Mature Skin and WoS. Another idea: I think what would be a good idea is to make an official recommendation; however, leave the choice up to the user as we do with other mods that have additional options. If all three mods work near flawlessly on the setup we end up with then giving the user the choice based on their personal preference would be best. For example, if Mature Skin won out; however, the other two work just as well on the body mesh we end up with then we could put Mature Skin up as our official recommendation. Then on the Mature Skin mod page, mention the option of the other two for those users that have a preference for one of those. If they all work on the body mesh, then I see no reason why this couldn't be done.

I agree that the wrist seams are all very subtle and acceptable here. Vanilla has a nice color but is too dirty. Both XCEs are out for me as they are way too gray in color. WoS is far too clean and perfect for my tastes, but it is nice nonetheless. SG Renewal is far too glowy. (we do have permission to alter these textures if it comes to that) That leaves two; WSCO and Mature Skin. Both are very well done, aren't "perfect" textures so as to leave some realism. WSCO is a bit glowy so it would seem that Mature Skin is the victor in my opinion. (this is strictly for skin textures...a vanilla body, XCE with a texture on top or a WSCO body with a texture on top will be the winner for the body mesh in my opinion...of course these would be the only ones that work with vanilla armors as well...lol)

Glad to have you both on board! Enjoy the community here and game on!

JoTN stays closer to vanilla; however, Gamwich's version is good too and is by no means less superior. One thing I did notice is that Gamwich's look a bit odd with the three stone placement due to the design in the background.

inventory should be okay. Just need to compare the textures against one another.

Well need some screen compares but I'd like to drop Jewels of the Nords of we can and not keep it around for just one or two files.

The reason it is still in there is because the ENB fix hasn't been fully tested yet.

...? I don't have any .ESM folders associated with WSCO. Edit: Found them. Had use a different install option. Those files are associated with that NPC ESP that we've already decided to kick out due to it being all personal preferences on the changes it made. Reinstall the mod and skip the NPC optional and those files will be gone.

A quick Google search will tell you all you need to know.

Merge it!

What do you mean when you are talking about the facegeom? The males texture head msn files because there are no males specific meshes in the mesh folder. I'm not a texture artist so I don't know what each texture is or does. I quick bit of reading and I can be up to speed though if there is a good source for this information. Compilations for each is going to be one big pain in the butt. The biggest things I see being pains with that are A) getting all the permissions we need (many authors are MIA these days) and B) the skin texture is going to be a nightmare. One of the benefits of these mods are the skin textures have already been set up to match without seams and gaps (or as little as possible). I'll take a closer look at the files when I get home from work to see their importance and figure out what they're doing/not doing and if they're even needed for a vanilla version. That is something that has to be figured out because what I'm seeing is mainly a difference in meshes and skin texture and those differences are very small to the point that I don't see them as any sort of concern. In fact, the Better Males is doing something funky with the abs. There is at least one weird line making them appear to have a "ten pack". The vanilla abs are much more natural looking to me. Not everyone has perfect "model" abs. EDIT: Oh, none of the files are referenced in the ESPs besides the darkelf files. The author changed from vanilla here. In vanilla the High Elf is used. In WSCO, the author has made a custom mesh for the dark elf so it is changed so they don't look exactly the same but with different skin/eyes. This is also only done for the females and not the males. All the male presets are a non-issues because we wouldn't be using that file anyway.

Females are being discussed in this thread. Males are being discussed here: https://forum.step-project.com/topic/3832-better-males-by-chris57-and-favoredsoul/ Keeping these two apart is going to be annoying but essential for testing and keeping track of everything.

Thanks. We use the Favoured Soul version for STEP.

With that That point is moot, IMO, because that is what XCE is as well. From XCE page: Furthermore, that is what Better Males is too: The fact that it is a compilation can not be held against WSCO (forgive me if I've misunderstood the point you were making there but I wanted to point that out). Some of the customization is the point of both mods; however, I haven't seen anything regarding custom facegens anywhere via the plugins for WSCO. Neither SRB or Kry mentioned them either in their detailed reviews. Nor did they mention anything wrong with the ESPs...they're mainly simply preset edits. Do you have an example of such "random things" and "custom facegens"? Also, how is WSCO more limited? It incorporates some of the Better Male mod as well as the same "facedata" as the Better Male mod does. They both use Genox's mod. If you're talking about player options, then I don't think that is something that we should be judging these mods on becuase they're up for Core which is very specially for vanilla-only mods. This is the reason we dropped UNP very quickly. Sorry, but I just don't follow what you are saying or see where you're getting that information from. Just by comparing the file trees of both mods you can see that WSCO has given more individualized attention to each race than Better Males does. Only by comparing each race can you give the mods a proper compare unless the differences are very plainly seen in just a couple of the races to say that Better Males wins out. Until I've seen such compares on my own or posted I will withhold any final judgement. I still need to look at more races, but from what I posted above, there is not enough of a difference to say "this wins" for either mod. The only thing I can see that WSCO has going against it is the feet issue. EDIT: Just re-examined the ESPs. As Kry mentioned in the review, the female ESP is the only one that would need to be active and the only questionable edits in there is the one ITM and the edit to the Sundry Maiden. The rest are simply preset changes. I've already asked the author for permission to edit these personal changes out (just waiting on a reply). It customizes the female dark elves to use more custom files instead of using the High Elve's files. I'll post compares of these tomorrow when I get home from work. Better Males still needs compares but for females, I'm convinced were not going to find a better standalone mod that fits STEP. CBBE is not an option in my opinion because of all the editing required to simply to get it to be "close" to vanilla. WSCO is vanilla friendly from the moment of installation. XCE is as well, but even still, that requires two mods to have Dawnguard compatibility and yet another to fix the awful skin textures. The skin textures from WSCO are actually very vanilla friendly for Core inclusion. More personalization can be considered for Extended. Cleaning up the vanilla skin too much isn't really a "fix" but rather personalization.

I do when I need to get up close; however, to get as near as identical frames as possible for each compare I've found that the tfc command doesn't save so well. Loading up a save where I'm in free camera rarely puts me back in the exact same spot. In fact, I'm usually hovering a mile off the ground when I load those saves. Therefore, this is as good as it gets to achieve frames with (nearly) the only difference being the mod change in each shot.

Found an area with some issues. Unfortunately, isoku hasn't been around in ages. So I'm just going to post it here for reference. Issue: Location:

We're testing out WSCO for STEP which might replace Better Males. I took some captures of a generic High Elf male and Nord for comparison. Vanilla >> Better Males >> WSCO (sorry for the camera move on better males. I had to reinstall it with a more vanilla chest hair option which still seems to be too hairy...option 2 would have been better. oh well...) The faces in both Better Males and WSCO are the same as they use the same face meshes by Genox; however, WSCO seems to use a more vanilla body than that of Better Males. There are some issues, however. The first two are present in both Better Males and WSCO so they cancel out on comparing for mod inclusion. The first two issues are seams. At close distance you can see both wrist and neck seams. The good thing is that texture lines up (blood veins are in line) so it makes it less noticeable. The third issue is the feet. With Better Males texture you get nicely places textures; however, you end up with feet that are oddly smooth, mis-colored and brighter than the rest of the body. (see first images for each set.) WSCO provides a bit better of a match for the color; however, it doesn't incorporate Better Male Feet (yet...I'll hit the author up about it once he/she responds to my PM). Therefore, with Better Male Feet activated with WSCO you receive misplaced textures on the feet (last shot below). Better Males >> WSCO

My god... could Diverse Muscle Tone have a more complicated install? Z, why don't you explain what you're doing with this mod exactly so others can follow suit. This thing adds up to an additional 8 ESPs! YIKES!

I've gather a couple shots from the NPC optional and have looked at a good part of them. These changes are purely personal choices and can be skipped (should be skipped for STEP). Here are a couple examples of the changes: Vanilla >> NPC optional We will be skipping the NPC optional during installation for WSCO if it is chosen. Dawnguard changes several characters from normal to vampires when installed. WSCO seems to reverse some of this and makes their appearance closer to vanilla Skyrim without Dawnguard again. Other changes follow simple cosmetic alterations.

If chosen, we'll be using the mod in it's entirety. We'll most likely deactivate the NPC module (it can actually be skipped in the install) and hopefully replace the skin texture with a better one. That is just ideal though, not guaranteed. It's all still very much in testing/trial & error phase right now.

I'm voting for WSCO. I'm pretty sure it can also replace Better Males. As for the panty mesh I know exactly what you're talking about: The only mods that fixed this were the mods that don't work for STEP (UNP & CBBE). I haven't found a fix either. You can also notice that inner thigh seam that is present in vanilla at certain angles. This isn't completely fixed in either mod. WSCO is the victor for me over XCE because these issues exist in both mods. However, more testing still needs to be done, especially with the elven races as those got a bigger overhaul than the others. The glow is just the skin texture. Ideally, we'll be replacing it with a better texture. Here's what WCSO looks like on my system: If I knew how to tone that down I would but I'm not a texture artist.

Are you sure this isn't an issue with a texture you're using. I'm not having any of those issues with XCE or WCSO with the BHB - XCE version. (default skin textures) EDIT: All the glow looks like SG Textures.