keithinhanoi

Can you give a specific example? I can't seem to find any where it looks like it may be merging at run-time. Better yet, post this question on Arthmoor's thread - because honestly, I don't know the answer here - and I can't find any information by googling.

@GamerPoets - After some thought, I think adding an MO overview video guide which meant to be viewed before any other of the video would help immensely. It could briefly explain the key features of MO - the virtual directory approach - to avoid actual files being overwritten, and greatly improve conflict management / mod or asset testingprofiles - to set up multiple mod combinations for different player characters / play throughs, with discrete "local" .ini files & savegamesNexus Mod download integration - giving access to mod version info, checking for updates, contextual menu link to mod pagesmod priority - separate from mod plugin load order, giving ability to easily change which mod supplies conflicting assets to the virtual directoryBSA priority control - while normally the order of BSA asset loading is determined by plugin load order, MO allows the priority of BSA assets to be changedintegrated LOOT plugin sorting - an upcoming feature to include the next generation application for plugin load order managementfull manual mod management - mod assets can be split up into separate "sandboxed" mods that can be easily enabled/disabledand so on. That would help users new to MO to understand its advantages and know what features to explore when learning more about the program. You could name it "Overview of Mod Organizer" or "Introduction to Mod Organizer", and recommend people watch it first to give them better context when watching the other video guides. Just a suggestion, though - it's clear these take a lot of time and effort!

AFAIK, all iNeeds does is set the timescale for you, with the same functionality as the console command, set timescale to xx. With the console command method, anyhow, the timescale will remain constant, so I'm not sure why you'd think Riverwood reverts the timescale to the default 20 value, but next time I'm in Riverwood I'll check on that using the show timescale command. In my new play through, I'm trying out a timescale of 10, and I have to say that I'm also noticing what seems to be too many NPCs standing around with nothing to do, though not just at nighttime. Same thing with groups of mindless loitering NPCs. Up to now, I hadn't thought of the possibility that all might be related to the timescale setting. The timescale can be changed at any time, as the dynamic timescale mod shows, so I think we should try changing it to something low and back to default, to see if these odd NPC behaviors are resolved with the default 20 value. I have to assume it would be a good idea to do that when far away from the places where we have observed the problems, and also wait a few days (at least) for things to "flush" out before going back to check.

This is exactly what I am considering doing for any patches I make for "public" consumption. So, I would like to coin a new term for this - "reversible compatibility patch." Like a reversible jacket that can be worn with either side out, this kind of patch will work regardless of the load order of it's explicit / implicit masters, and should in theory work for most people, regardless of whether they're using LOOT or BOSS. As mentioned in the newer thread on LOOT, though, some patches will need a note explaining they are actually not needed in one possible load order (example from AOS - the Realistic Water Two and Wet & Cold patches aren't required if the load order is in reverse of what BOSS will set.) ------- I would expect David to be amenable to such an idea - just for the purpose of STEP users. I am holding off on any more patching of AOS, though, as a user by the name of Shurah has identified what appears to be a genuine bug in TES5Edit with the way it handles floating point values for some sound-related sub-record data. (FYI to see the uninterrupted forum thread on this - ATM see page 2 of the AOS comments threads on nexusmods.com) Basically, TES5Edit is slightly changing the values when the sub-record is carried into another plugin or typed in manually, and the new changed values are invalid when checked in CK. He hasn't yet reported it in the TES5Edit Beth's Forum thread, though. Maybe I should do it, giving credit to him for noticing it.

Hmm. I've always thought the exact same of BOSS, having seen all of the multitudes of "Did you try running BOSS?" as the answer to almost every game issue under the sun described in mod comment threads. That plus the general clear ignorance of it being based on user-submissions.

If removing the one placed by DragonmournInn.esp, you'd need to "remove" 8 objects (the post, and 7 signs): By the way, here's time-saving tip for properly "removing" multiple unwanted objects, etc. via a patch made in TES5Edit: 1. Copy override the record of object, etc. you want to disable into your patch plugin 2. Edit the Record Flags for that record, and enable the deleted flag 3. Repeat steps 1 & 2 for all objects you want to disable 4. Close TES5Edit and save your patch plugin 5. Open TES5Edit again with the same plugins as before (including your patch plugin) 6. Select your patch plugin, right-click and choose Apply Filter for Cleaning 7. When the filtering is done, right click on your patch plugin again and choose Undelete and Disable References. 8. Close TES5Edit and save your patch plugin again The UDR routine makes sure the objects,etc are properly removed by: A. Changing the delete flag to a disabled flag on all the records you edited in your patch B. Setting the XESP - Enable Parent's Reference to Player [00000014] and flag to Set Enable State to Opposite of Parent. C. Setting the DATA - Z position to -30000.000000 By not having to do B&C yourself, I figure you save yourself from doing > 80% of the clicks and typing you would have to do otherwise.

Yeah, I knew the barrel is in Dawnstar even though I was talking about the ETaC - Complete minus Winterhold replacer plugin - "stranger" things have happened where ETaC updates are concerned, from everything I've seen, so I thought maybe it was a possibility.... And the answer is I have no idea where it came from, because after updating things again with your new ETaC + EWDR patch, It's just not there. I also found the reason for the doubled wood plank walkways - it was my fault! I still had the old REGS Patch - NSutR.esp in my load order when I made a merged REGS Patch. 'Doh! I really have to remember to just open console every time I see things like this and let Mfg Console help tell me where these abominations have come from. Now all I have in Dawnstar that irks me is floating LoS lantern (FormIDs xx001339/xx00133A) at one corner of Brina's house, and a strangely slightly ajar door on Frukis' house (Form ID 0017746) - maybe because of the rotation set by ETaC Complete (no inns)? So, CJ, a big apology to you for wasting your time! EDIT: I've been back in Dawnstar again, and the door on Frukis' house is actually fine. Maybe it was the shadows at night playing tricks on my eyes? The floating LoS is definitely there though (and I've just disabled it and buried it and and made me it's parent and told to go to bed with supper!!)

Yes, I realize that, but I have absolutely no idea if I can trust LOOT's masterlist quite yet to have all of those order adjustments added. As for me adjusting it myself, well I have to admit that as much as I try to know things about all the mods I use, I honestly do not know which ones have scripts that are meant to overwrite others (outside of the unofficial patches - but that's very different as their up with the .esm masters.) So to be 100% sure, I'd have to go through the /data directory preview in MO, note every single instance of script "conflict", and do some research to find out which mod's scripts should win the overwrite contest. And I consider myself to be a fairly knowledgeable mod-user, so I'm thinking about all the people that just can't deal with all that information. However, with STEP, we're talking about a finite number of mods, which doesn't get changed very often, so it seems it's entirely possible to get that required order under control and spelled out in the Guide, once STEP includes the recommendation of using LOOT instead of BOSS to sort load order. But is that order for mod assets overwrite priority going to be set in MO priority order, and let LOOT order the plugins differently (so you get the warning in MO,) or will there be a custom LOOT order adjustment for STEP, so that load order and priority order match?

Got it, and replied - ball's in your court now. ;) So, do you reckon an Animated Weapon Enchants patch should be added to the AOS 2 installer for the general-non-STEP-population of mod users? I've not seen anybody mention it on the AOS comments thread.

It's a bit like WinXP when Windows 7 came out. BOSS' support may have been "depreciated" but enough people are still using it that it can't be considered near to EOL (end of life) yet.

@DoubleYou - Does that adjusted load order in LOOT take into account all mods with scripts meant to overwrite ones provided by earlier loading mods? This is one aspect of LOOT that I worry about - the possibility that some plugins in the BOSS masterlist were placed in that slot so that scripts in their accompanying BSA would overwrite scripts provided by earlier loading plugins. This potential issue is of course more relevant in a non-Mod Organizer context, but still important in MO if you're following the priority re-ordering suggestions in the warnings window, as Tannin confirmed elsewhere yesterday that those re-ordering suggestions are based entirely on load order. Now, I can't cite any examples off the top of my head, but I can take a look when I next get to my rig at home.

Last post for today, I swear! Um, LoS yes, and also the NSutR patch make edits to Winterhold. So if using the no-Winterhold version of ETaC Complete, there will likely be floating snowbanks and such - I've not checked in game, and probably won't now that you've fixed the patch. I see MJB is still hammering away at Winterhold, so it seems your "fixed" patch will unfortunately have a fairly short shelf-life. I'm hoping it will be a good base for her upcoming updates, though. Well, it looks to me that if I take out the patch entries that move it, it might actually work fine in its original position. Going to try it out later. Weird. Could it be just in the special no-Winterhold ETaC Complete replacement? That's what I had loaded when I went and looked. I did use an old savegame, so perhaps I should have tried the pcb console command before going outside. Well, your really working in overdrive, so no worries - thanks for all the fixes! I was using the no-Winterhold ETaC Complete no-inns replacement plugin, and I'm trying out MJB's new textures, so the patch is the new textures + SMIM + NSutR variant. Those two things being different might explain why you don't see it and I do.I forgot to get the FormID while I was in, so I'll do that tomorrow and figure it out - now that you've clued me into it likely being a duplicate set of the same wooden walkway object in the same position. I really appreciate you checking into it, though, and promise to post back when I find out what it was - or if all the most recent updates resolved it for me.

Just noticed, the fomod sticks the hotfix mesh into /clothes... instead of /meshes/clothes...

You're not kidding. Until you came out of the blue with that ETaC + EWDR patch just now, I was in the process of making a note for mjb about the ETaC - Complete - NSutR Patch, LoS having edits to Winterhold that would not work if somebody chose the ETaC - Complete Winterhold patch replacement plugin. Oh, and I forgot to mention in my above post with Rustleif using a broom to scrape the tanning rack that I found that the ETaC - Complete Fountains Patch moves the fountain in Dawnstar to be almost fully embedded in the doorway of the Jarl's house - anyone else witness this? ...and there's a floating barrel (vanilla, ID 000D6959) in front of Irgnir's house - any other sightings to confirm this?

Well, with ETaC 10 Complete (no Inns) and the 10.2 patches, I went to Dawnstar and with my fix found Rustleif was clothed, but without shoes. I almost missed the shoes thing because when I found him I couldn't believe what he was doing with the tanning rack: Um, yeah, that's interesting. While I'm on the topic of weird things in Dawnstar possibly related to ETaC, I notice that the white "snow" overlay on the planks of some ETaC-repositioned wooden walkways was graphically glitching out, with weird patterns that revealed the bare wood underneath. Moving around made the patterns change and flicker a lot. Here are two screenies: Any ideas of what the heck is going on here would be greatly appreciated. Dude. You got your ETaC's chocolate in EWDR's peanut butter! It's two great tastes that taste great together! Many thanks!

Tannin - just to double check here. The algorithm is based on the current plugin load order, correct? So if for some reason I sorted plugins using BOSS, and then sorted using LOOT (externally or built-in), if the load order from each was different (a reasonable expectation,) then the Potential Mod order warning list would be different too - right?

...or I suppose Rustleif just won't be wearing clothes, which can be fun, depending on your particular line up of mods... I should mention that when I made my "mother" of all compatibility patches, the merge plugin script wasn't quite ready for prime-time yet. Also, it seems I'm using combinations of mods that people haven't thought to make compatibility patches for yet.To each their own, as they say...

I don't know what the admins will think, but personally I think it would have been better to group links to all episodes of this series in one Open Post of one thread. And... as requested, some initial feedback: First off, it's great to have a fresh, up-to-date set of video tutorials on Mod Organizer - something badly needed. The sound is great, though I would have tried to put a little more breathing space between the voice over edits - the end of some are almost on top of the beginning of another, if that makes any sense. The added graphics are simple and not too flashy, which makes things very straight forward. And it's clear you planned out each episode and what actions you would take / points to cover. But then having viewed just the first four up to now, I'm left wondering a few things: 1. Why recommend users to install manually instead of setting MO for Nexus site download integration (by recognizing nxm links)? I can understand that new users may not be ready to commit and would like to still be able to use NMM, but with the way MO works, it's essentially a one-or-the-other scenario. The contents of the data folder should be cleared out (or backed up) to return it vanilla state, and the user has to be prepared to commit to trying MO.The advantages of MO recognizing NXM links are clear, including:1. Managing downloaded archives right in MO's interface2. Mods get installed with all the important metadata from Nexus, including mod version number recognition and contextual-menu features of a) direct link to mod's page in your browser, b)(un)endorsement of the mod, and c) checking for updates3. You get to click the easy-to-use SHINY GREEN download button on Nexus mod pages. By only showing users how to install mods manually, they are missing out on all of those features of MO, and likely to believe that MO makes mod version management more difficult than it is with NMM or other mod managers. 2. Why not explain the basic premise of how MO works early on in this series? By episode 3, you're talking about files being overwritten, but you haven't yet explained that they're not ACTUALLY getting overwritten on the user's hard drive or SSD. MO just uses the priority number that is set for each mod to decide which copy of any file of a particular name provided by more than one mod gets used when MO builds its VIRTUAL skyrimdata directory that is read by Skyrim/Oblivion/etc. when it starts.The virtual data directory of MO is probably one of its main selling-points, because it gives the user an amazing level of control over managing overwrites of loose files between mods, all without having to worry about the actual files on their drive being overwritten, since each mod's real files are kept in their own separate "sandboxed" folder inside the mods directory of MO. That's it for the moment. More to come later... EDIT: Okay, well never mind on #1 above, but I'm not so sure why it's a good idea to have users start out by doing manual downloads and installation first, thinking MO is crap because of it, and then, if they get to episode 5, finding out that they could have been using the Nexus download integration all the long.

Wow, in 16:9 widescreen format and authoritative deep-voiced movie preview announcer style vocal track, even!

I saw the same error last night, and fixed it in exactly the same way. It is because some mod removed the replacement outfit records for Rustleif, but unfortunately I'm not sure which because I updated several mods before checking my patches. Since I maintain a huge hand-made custom compatibility patch for my mod line-up that has 38 plugin masters, I've gotten into the habit of opening up everything in TES5Edit after I update any mods to at least do a Check for Errors to look for unresolved references that appear when a mod author has removed something. I'm not 100% positive, but without fixing unresolved references like this one that came up, Skyrim will very likely CTD when approaching the object, NPC, etc. in question.

Well, missjennabee uploaded a new set of ETaC patches (v10.1), and it turned out the Expanded Winterhold Destruction Ruins patch still had problems. She has decided it's easier to offer a replacement ETaC Complete plugin that doesn't include the Winterhold changes, for EWDR users and anyone else using mods which make major changes to the town (city?) And for people using the modular ETaC plugins, there won't be a compatibility patch for the ETaC Winterhold plugin. So, without the patch, where the REGS guide is concerned, it seem that it's now essentially a choose-one-or-the-other decision on ETaC Complete with Winterhold -OR- EWDR with ETaC that doesn't include Winterhold.

This thread has veered severely off topic and should have been moved elsewhere, but as z has even thrown his hat in the ring, what the hey? blattgeist, with all due respect, before changing settings like this to the value you are suggesting, I recommend doing just 5-10 minutes of "Google research" for a reality check. I'd hope you'd find the most direct official source of information about the Papyrus settings on the CreationKit Wiki site - the link Kuldebar pointed out: Papyrus INI Settings Creation Kit Now maybe a lot of words on that page are new and don't have any meaning to you, so then wikipedia would be the place to go find out what things like a "stack" and "heap" are. Then you'd find out that a stack is something designed to hold a tiny amount of data. Then, sit back, apply some common sense. Remember that Skyrim, more exactly TESV.exe is a 32-bit application. It is LAA ("Large Address Aware" - google it ) executable, which means on 32-bit Windows it can access a maximum of 2GB of memory (unless you use a special and somewhat risk hack, in which case it's 3GB) and on a 64-bit system it cannot address more than 4GB of memory. In practice, Windows system libraries have to take up about 900MB of memory, so you're left with about 3.1GB of accessible memory - sound familiar ("the 3.1GB memory cap of Skyrim")? Now, the Papyrus virtual machine (that VM does NOT stand for virtual memory) runs as a process in TESV.exe, so it, along with everything else running in TESV.exe, are collectively limited to that 3.1GB of memory on a 64-bit Windows system. So, how, for the love of inserty your diety here, can we expect one tiny little process in Skyrim to actually grab up 16GB of memory, knowing everything I've just typed here? Clearly, if we believe that we've been "sipping the kool-aid", standing in Steve Jobs "reality distortion field" (diety bless his sould), etc. Just because iMaxAllocatedMemoryBytes can be set to 2GB does not mean it was designed to do that. The wiki entry also give a clear warning (though I don't think it's clear enough, judging on vast amounts of wasted bits and misinformation from people with half a brain on magical papyrus .ini settings that will deliver world peace.) Long story short, the whole TL;DR mentality will not bring world peace. Quite the opposite, in fact. Thank god the people posting these kinds of recommendations aren't doing programming of the International Space Station computers...

That's a very creative way to bring compatibility there - makes sense.

I suppose, but there would definitely need to be a clear disclaimer about how AOS will affect the SBD&S sounds that don't get priority overwritten, and also the whole bit about what to expect if the ADS plugin is used. One of the hallmark features of AOS is an attempt to bring consistency to the weapon sounds, and using SBD&S will have an affect on that. Time to put it up for discussion, anyhow - that's what you guys are so good at, right?

The thing about those errors is that they only highlight unresolved references, not other weirdness. For example, looking in TES5Edit I also see three records FormIDs unique to 3DNPC patch - in other words it's adding objects, and not moving ones placed by other plugins. I'm not 100% positive, but I don't think that was the intention there, because normally the point of a patch plugin is to make edits to existing objects. The records I'm talking about are: The EDWR errors are just missing references to linked doors in the NavMesh Info Map, and my best guess is it might have to do with mismatched masters in the header, because the order doesn't match what I've got (BOSS-based at the moment). When I say mismatched, I mean what happens when the order of masters is manually changed by right-clicking and selecting Move up / Move down on a master while viewing the header in TES5Edit, instead of using the correct method of the Sort Masters contextual menu function on the plugin in the left-hand list view pane. Again, this is just a guess - I have no way of knowing.