Automatic STEP

[Smitty]

This started out as me complaining about how hard it was to install STEP, but the conversation is now mostly about an automatic STEP, involving talk about mod packs, torrent download, and etc tools.

 

[spoiler=Original Post]

Just spent the last week installing S.T.E.P. for Skyrim. Between my free time and using Teamviewer at work when it's dead (yay nightshifts), it took a long time.

 

Honestly, I was a bit disappointed when I finally finished installing hundreds of mods it linked me to. With the few dead links, removed mods, and slightly confusing download directions, I actually just used torrent to download them all for me. Which honestly, probably cut the work in half, and allowed me to download mods no longer on the Nexus. Don't worry, I've already downloaded and endorsed most of those mods (the ones that deserved it anyways) before I even tried out STEP. I'm not new to modding and most of those links were already purple, which also cut down on the reading (at least for the ones that haven't been updated since I've used them). I wish STEP was made into an installer, but due to authors loving their pointless permissions, that probably wont ever happen legally.

 

Back to STEP, the main reason I was probably disappointed is because with how much work it takes to get it running, I would expect more of a difference. I hopped in, beat the intro quest, and was honestly expecting more than a slightly enhanced Skyrim. Yes I know that's literally what the title says, and I know the whole project is centered around better vanilla gameplay, but it didn't even have player head tracking. Really the only things I noticed were better textures and a couple mechanics. I guess that's the point of STEP, but with 229 mods, 113 plugins, and a chunk of them that required compatibility patch options in their installers for mods I might want, I can't help but think STEP was a huge waste of time compared to work load, that probably made some mods I really want incompatible.

 

Just thought I'd vent that out so the creators could see it, people's opinions are important because they help build things into greatness. How else will they know the install time is something that turns a lot of people off unless a lot of people complain about it? I don't mean any disrespect by it, it's just how I feel after installing it, even after cheating the downloads. Now excuse me, I'm going to try and get Frostfall, 360 Walk and Run, Lots of HDT mods for tails weapons and maybe hair, RS Children, 3D NPCs, Epic Gameplay Overhaul, and either T3nn0s' new mod, or Requim (Haven't decided yet). Tips would be nice, I'd rather keep STEP installed because I already went through all the work, but I'll be searching the forums about these mods in the meantime.

 

 

Edited December 8, 2014 by Smitty

[TechAngel85]

Thanks for the feedback. Not understanding the disappointment, though, when you knew what STEP is and what it's about. Can't make an apple into an orange.

 

We are well aware of the time it takes to install STEP. Nothing can be done about it. Experienced modders with a good internet connection and who are familiar with the tools can install it in one day. I've done it in ~4hrs before and about 2/3 of that is downloading mods.

 

STEP:Core (just the mods marked green) will get you a base game that is "fixed" and that shouldn't have hardly any compatibility issues. It's a great foundation on which to build a personalized setup upon. STEP:Extended (the full Guide) is more of our vision for the game and may not be for everyone. Mod in Extended don't necessary have to fit the vanilla game as long as they make sense and don't cause issues; therefore, it includes several mods that may conflict with other mods.

 

Player Headtracking was in testing to be included in STEP at one point, but it caused some CTD on loading save games so it never made the cut: https://forum.step-project.com/topic/724-player-headtracking/

[Smitty]

Thanks for the reply, I think my issues came from installing STEP Extended, I noticed a few mods had options for compatibility for mods I was planning to install after STEP, however was not sure if it would be compatible or not. I'm going to go back and remove Extended and pinpoint which of those mods I had those options, so I'm just using STEP Core. That might solve any issues I have now that I think of it.

 

As for time to install, yeah that is the real downside. People like their permissions so you can't upload a modpack, and torrent takes away page views and endorsements from Nexus (however does help with server load). The real time comes from going to each page, and downloading the right file. Add up to the hundreds of mods downloaded, that does add a lot of time on top of the actual downloading. Installing it is the real time consumer, I spent a couple hours on it a day and it took me 3-6 days. I wish SASTEP was still being worked on, it'd be a lot easier with a single installer that rips the downloads from each individual page, and/or a tool that takes all the downloaded files and installs them with a few options for system ability and personal preference.

 

Nice to know about headtracking, odd it would cause crashing. I never had issues with it, although I've heard a lot of people do.

 

Thanks for the reply, I guess I didn't realize STEP Core is the real version I wanted.

[phazer11]

Don't forget about the Packs. There are also spinoffs (STEP like guides) like Skyrim Revisited: Legendary Edition.

[Smile44]

Not Sure this chap / chapette is ready for packs yet dude - I sense some reading and practice is still ahead of this one. This is not a new opinion but modding without becoming a modder is pretty tricky. Reading and trying new ideas is part of what STEP is all about but the guide is very focused on improving the vanilla experience not catering to the wide variety of potential game play experience. To become a modder one needs to a) learn the craft and b) spend time looking at what you want it to be and make those changes.

 

STEP is and always has been a project that teaches the first and advises the second. The packs enhance this but in each case there is a limit on what can be prescribed when users install a variety of different mods expecting them to work together. This forum is a fantastic resource for a wide variety of information and help and the staff are aware of and trying to solve all of the issues that are involved in such a big undertaking and shortening it. Ultimately though it is on you the modder to learn how to mod before you get to the point where you can see what is needed to make packs and indeed mod guides.

 

Much love to all,

 

[hishutup]

none of the mods you mentioned are incompatible... you just need to know how to patch.

 

The whole point of STEP is a vanilla framework for packs to build off of.

-also what smile said :P

 

IDK about you but Smile44 requiem pack doesnt seem to be incompatible with STEP because it was built around it. Well, its outdated...

REGS, Morrowloot Overhaul, other packs?

 

If you want to customize your game to EXACTLY what you want then a guide isn't want you want to use...

 

There are a lot of popular mods that everyone loved but were found to cause CTDs and most of them were abandoned...

 

Dont get me wrong, I dont use STEP at all...

I dont even really play skyrim anymore because of hardware issues.

[GrantSP]

Not Sure this chap / chapette is ready for packs yet dude - I sense some reading and practice is still ahead of this one. This is not a new opinion but modding without becoming a modder is pretty tricky. Reading and trying new ideas is part of what STEP is all about but the guide is very focused on improving the vanilla experience not catering to the wide variety of potential game play experience. To become a modder one needs to a) learn the craft and b) spend time looking at what you want it to be and make those changes.

 

STEP is and always has been a project that teaches the first and advises the second. The packs enhance this but in each case there is a limit on what can be prescribed when users install a variety of different mods expecting them to work together. This forum is a fantastic resource for a wide variety of information and help and the staff are aware of and trying to solve all of the issues that are involved in such a big undertaking and shortening it. Ultimately though it is on you the modder to learn how to mod before you get to the point where you can see what is needed to make packs and indeed mod guides.

 

Much love to all,

 

This is exactly the right view to take. Couldn't agree more whole-heartedly.

Far too often users just blindly follow step-by-step guides without knowing WHY it is done that way.

Installing mods SHOULD be a learning experience, in my view, and STEP provides that as it is now.

[z929669]

@Smitty

Play the vanilla game at least until level 30. By vanilla I mean pure vanilla. Then come back and install STEP:Core and start over with same character and then tell us what you think. STEP does not postulate that it changes anything substantive. We are primarily focused on 'fixing' and 'correcting' and showing our users how to go about it in as simple a way as possible. We provide a relatively simple guide to modding Skyrim with all the resources and./or references you need to do it. It is actively maintained. Go try to mod Skyrim without referring to this site and let us know what we don't provide that we could provide ... or that others are doing a better job of providing --within the purview of the STEP Mandate. There just aren't any alternatives for modding Skyrim or any other game compared to what this site has to offer (+ other user guides like Skyrim Revisited)

 

More XP needed, or you just expect more than what we can manage. Complaining about the hassle of installing a bunch of mods indicates to me that you are not really into the game enough to care much about its shortcomings (or the challenges of overcoming them) ... most likely because you are not experienced enough with the vanilla game to notice the differences. If you have played the vanilla game and STEP:Core each through level 30-ish, then you have a unique perspective that deserves mention within the annals of the critical literature of the entire Bethesda modding paradigm.

 

If you are convinced that you are experienced enough to supply a truly definitive critique, then there is really not much STEP or modding has to offer you at this time.

 

    ~ Strength & Honor                               ... (name the movie)

[Smitty]

Don't forget about the Packs. There are also spinoffs (STEP like guides) like Skyrim Revisited: Legendary Edition.

I looked at a few of them, but none really suit my tastes, and I don't have as much trust in the compatibility in them as STEP. Also, Skyrim Revisited is WIP as far as I know?

 

Not Sure this chap / chapette is ready for packs yet dude - I sense some reading and practice is still ahead of this one.

I've been modding since Fallout 3. Back before I had a life, I did nothing but sit there, and add hundreds of plugins, spending all day on it, even making my own patches for them. That was years ago, I did something similar with FNV, but around when I finally got a job and bought Skyrim was around when I started to get impatient and busy with life. BOSS, when I discovered it, (around FNV times for me) was amazing for me, it made installing tons of mods easier and less time consuming. I love how LOOT is a thing now, and NMM made packages easier. However not all mod authors used proper structure, and before I used NMM, I always downloaded the mods and remade my own packages for FOMM. Never used WyreBash until STEP, it was always download, make package, install, BOSS, FO3edit (Or now it's more NMM download, install, LOOT, TES5Edit).

 

Now, however, I have reached the point where I start to download a ton of mods, and maybe install 10-20 of them before I just get bored and stop. I see a lot of work trying to get them all working, I moan, and I spend a while looking for shortcuts, then clean install, give up and go to bed. Spending hours making everything work together is not how I imagined spending my free time, as rare as it is. Sometimes I'll have more than usual freetime, and I might actually get a large sum of mods working. I'll play a bit not bothering with any quests, and then I'll see a pretty new mod on the Nexus that requires a fresh start, or notice something got updated and end up ripping out all the mods and starting over.

 

At least with MO, I think I can save my old setups and just make a new profile, and download/install a different combination of mods. I'm not sure, I'm not used to this program yet. Installing STEP did, however, teach me how to use it. Like some cheaply made highschool class who's teach tells you to do the tutorial, make a project, and gives you a bad grade because you jacked around even though you did all the work.... No, but I will keep STEP installed for as long as possible, I wont let all that work go for nothing, and it did actually show me some ropes about MO and Wyre, so there's that.

[Smitty]

@Smitty

Play the vanilla game at least until level 30.

I try to beat any game I play before I install mods. DLC is a different story, because by the time they come out I'm already sitting on a new game with the same name.

 

However, I did run pure vanilla (THANK YOU MO FOR NOT INSTALLING ANYTHING INTO THE ACTUAL GAME DIRECTORY!!!!), and suddenly I felt like I was playing Oblivion with the graphical drop. Ok, so there is a larger difference than I initially thought (I mean, I haven't played vanilla Skyrim since I beat it a couple years ago), I'll admit that, and I was probably too harsh on not seeing as big as a difference than I was expecting with how long it took my to install, but the only actual critique I have is something I'm sure the community is already trying to do; find a way to install it faster with fewer clicks, while also making the mod authors (and Nexus.com) happy.

[TechAngel85]

I try to beat any game I play before I install mods. DLC is a different story, because by the time they come out I'm already sitting on a new game with the same name.

 

However, I did run pure vanilla (THANK YOU MO FOR NOT INSTALLING ANYTHING INTO THE ACTUAL GAME DIRECTORY!!!!), and suddenly I felt like I was playing Oblivion with the graphical drop. Ok, so there is a larger difference than I initially thought (I mean, I haven't played vanilla Skyrim since I beat it a couple years ago), I'll admit that, and I was probably too harsh on not seeing as big as a difference than I was expecting with how long it took my to install, but the only actual critique I have is something I'm sure the community is already trying to do; find a way to install it faster with fewer clicks, while also making the mod authors (and Nexus.com) happy.

Actually, we are working on a compilation of mods with mod author permissions to reduce the workload. So, you're right...something is in the works, but it's going to be a while yet. We mainly have the list of mods that can be combined; however, combining them properly so that resource conflicts with other mods in STEP but not in the compilation is the tricky part. Placement in the install order will be key to such a thing working properly.

 

If all works out, we'll hopefully reduce the mod list by 15-20 mods or so.

[Aiyen]

What is all this "playing the game" of which you speak.... you can actually play skyrim! Guess you learn something new every day! :) 

[Nozzer66]

I'm actually glad STEP's not an installer. I'm actually glad that I HAVE to take the time and learn how things work and go together. 

 

If STEP ever gets made an installer, I'd STILL take the time to download every mode one at a time. And I wouldn't use Torrents. *shudders*

 

Not sure that line about 'pointless permissions' is quite kosher. In fact I think it's pretty insulting.

[Smitty]

I'm actually glad STEP's not an installer. I'm actually glad that I HAVE to take the time and learn how things work and go together. 

 

If STEP ever gets made an installer, I'd STILL take the time to download every mode one at a time. And I wouldn't use Torrents. *shudders*

 

Not sure that line about 'pointless permissions' is quite kosher. In fact I think it's pretty insulting.

I would use the "but I already know how it works" line, but I did learn how to use MO and WB thanks to STEP.

 

Torrents take a huge load off of the Nexus servers, and for someone who's already downloaded and endorsed those mods, it's does no harm. It'd be cool if Nexus made it's own Torrent tracker and client, having downloaders upload files to other downloaders (seeding) is genius, and still runs even if the servers go down. I say Nexus should have it's own client so they can track downloads, support clientside endorsing like NMM, and only allow Nexus files to be torrented. And just to be clear, yes I paid for all of my game regardless of my support for torrent. I can PM you my steam ID if you don't believe me.

 

I know it does sound a bit rude, but for freeware, permissions are a bit pointless IMO. I think the same about art, although people stealing art is a thing, and art can be sold for money, so I know why it exists. Even if it was a front page mod that's deemed as necessary by the community, I still personally wouldn't care if a mod I made was used in a package without my permission. Hell, I'd take it as a compliment. My name is already on it and everyone knows I made it, good enough for me. Now if they didn't use my name, or even tried slapping their own name on it, then I might have an issue if it was a hard mod to make. That's how it was in other modding communities, and I loved it.

 

However with that said, I do apologize if I have insulted you. That is my opinion, and as much as I believe in it, I won't force or coerce you to see it my way. Your own free will is your own, and I respect your opinion to want to be that way with mods and permissions, even if I don't agree with it. 

Edited December 6, 2014 by Smitty

[Aiyen]

Ah yes the permissions issue and torrent debate. This is as old as the STEP forums and perhaps even the nexus forums. There are plenty of arguments for and against in that, but at the end of the day then it is the policy setup by the nexus, at the request of quite a few mod developers so that is what we have to work with. 

 

Personally I think that is why nexus is actually working as well as it does... all things considered. Compared to many other modding communities I have visited and used in my time then I still like nexus the most. Quite a few people have plenty of issues with nexus´s way of doing and handling stuff like that, and quite a few large debates, and bans have been thrown into the mix over the years. And common for all of them is that at the end of the day the mods are the authors property. 

 

In relation to STEP then the issue also is if we somehow had a pack easily made into a single installer, then we would also have to keep track of permissions and what not in case the author suddenly does not want his/her work to be part of it. Just because you would see it as a good thing your work is in a pack, does not mean that everyone see it that way. 

 

Another issue is support. If a mod suddenly does not work and it is in a pack.. is it then the pack authors or the mod authors "responsibility" to provide support? There are plenty of cases where the solutions to problems means altering mods by removing parts of them etc. How much of one mod can you remove and still give credit to the original author ? When it comes to .esp only based mods this gets even more tricky. 

 

It is a tricky debate that most likely is not going to change much until the coming of the next TES title. Who knows.. bethesda might go the same way as valve and make modding into something that can be bought as DLC/cosmetic content.