Bethesda Plugin Manager for Mod Organizer (by Parapets)

[DoubleYou]

Discussion topic:
Bethesda Plugin Manager for Mod Organizer by Parapets
Wiki Link

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This looks very useful.

[z929669]

Indeed, this looks great. I wonder how LOOT sorting works with the grouping, but I suspect it's intuitive (i.e., sort by group or by LO but sorting by both is impossible). I also wonder if gouops are or can be related to xEdit Mod Groups. <--Rhetorical questions. I will get my answers when I add this in the unforeseeable future

EDIT: I posted on the Nexus Posts page with some findings. I can't link to the comment now that Nexus has uncoupled their forum integrations for Posts.

[ButchDiavolo]

17 hours ago, z929669 said:

Indeed, this looks great. I wonder how LOOT sorting works with the grouping, but I suspect it's intuitive (i.e., sort by group or by LO but sorting by both is impossible). I also wonder if gouops are or can be related to xEdit Mod Groups. <--Rhetorical questions. I will get my answers when I add this in the unforeseeable future

EDIT: I posted on the Nexus Posts page with some findings. I can't link to the comment now that Nexus has uncoupled their forum integrations for Posts.

I saw your comment on Nexus, after I came looking for information. I damn near had a heart attack when I ran LOOT stand alone for the first time since installing this mod. All the new categories...

But, as I posted on Nexus as well in response to your post: It seem the categories come from LOOT and not Nexus. I came to this conclusion because I have tons of mods in the "default" groups (scattered in the load order) and none in i.e. "Environment" or "Lighting" groups.

The LOOT sorting is exactly the same as before. The mods are just sorted in (LOOT) groups now.

[Greg]

I think using LOOT groups to categories plugins makes the most sense given plugins are ordered into these groups. I think using the separators in the left pane (or even Nexus categories) as the grouping for the plugins seems problematic to me because the plugins are not necessarily sorted by this order. Looking my Step Skyrim SE 2.0 setup as an example, plugins in the Foundation and Models & Textures sections are scattered throughout the right pane. There's also the issue with ESMs and ESLs at the top followed by the ESPs and ESP+FEs so you get an immediate split with Realistic Water Two - Resources.esm at the top and Realistic Water Two.esp close to the bottom.

[z929669]

10 minutes ago, Greg said:

I think using LOOT groups to categories plugins makes the most sense given plugins are ordered into these groups. I think using the separators in the left pane (or even Nexus categories) as the grouping for the plugins seems problematic to me because the plugins are not necessarily sorted by this order. Looking my Step Skyrim SE 2.0 setup as an example, plugins in the Foundation and Models & Textures sections are scattered throughout the right pane. There's also the issue with ESMs and ESLs at the top followed by the ESPs and ESP+FEs so you get an immediate split with Realistic Water Two - Resources.esm at the top and Realistic Water Two.esp close to the bottom.

I agree with you. It's the classic problem of 'logical' versus 'functional', which all gets really ILlogical when people make plugins that touch all sorts of record types (thus, the 'default', 'foundation', and 'misc' groups are born). It would all be simpler to manage logically if I myself were a computer ... but alas, I'm human and want to label and classify things logically AND functionally ... intuitively. It just can't be done without trade-offs. So many ways to skin the cat (sorry cat lovers, I am among your number and mean no offense to cats).

5 hours ago, ButchDiavolo said:

I saw your comment on Nexus, after I came looking for information. I damn near had a heart attack when I ran LOOT stand alone for the first time since installing this mod. All the new categories...

But, as I posted on Nexus as well in response to your post: It seem the categories come from LOOT and not Nexus. I came to this conclusion because I have tons of mods in the "default" groups (scattered in the load order) and none in i.e. "Environment" or "Lighting" groups.

The LOOT sorting is exactly the same as before. The mods are just sorted in (LOOT) groups now.

I replied to you and the helpful jc43081 (jc-numbers). This is becoming another rabbit hole, and I should take solace that this plugin provides useful insights hitherto unknown before

Then there's the whole argument that these game files should all be masters or light masters rather than ESPermanent ... too late! That would make sorting a bit more logical though.

[Mousetick]

I initially didn't fully understand what this mod does and was a bit skeptical of its overall usefulness. I haven't tried it, but following your conversations here and on Nexus, I got a much better picture - thanks  I have to admit, I'm now even more skeptical of its usefulness when used with standalone LOOT (where the plugin grouping is normally managed).

As for the other main features:

• The visual indication of (certain) record conflicts is nice, but redundant with checking for conflicts in xEdit.
• The visual indication of asset conflicts in BSAs is nice, but it's not a complete solution, as it doesn't take loose files into account.

The lack of visual indication of ESP/ESM and light/fat plugin type is a big omission and a step back IMHO.

In my case, I check for asset conflicts (BSAs + loose files combined) on the left side of MO2, I check for record conflicts in xEdit, and I do all the plugin sorting/grouping in standalone LOOT. This mod doesn't add anything I was missing, it doesn't make the tasks easier or more dependable, but it is removing important information I rely on. So I'll pass for the time being.

[z929669]

8 minutes ago, Mousetick said:

I initially didn't fully understand what this mod does and was a bit skeptical of its overall usefulness. I haven't tried it, but following your conversations here and on Nexus, I got a much better picture - thanks  I have to admit, I'm now even more skeptical of its usefulness when used with standalone LOOT (where the plugin grouping is normally managed).

As for the other main features:

• The visual indication of (certain) record conflicts is nice, but redundant with checking for conflicts in xEdit.
• The visual indication of asset conflicts in BSAs is nice, but it's not a complete solution, as it doesn't take loose files into account.

The lack of visual indication of ESP/ESM and light/fat plugin type is a big omission and a step back IMHO.

In my case, I check for asset conflicts (BSAs + loose files combined) on the left side of MO2, I check for record conflicts in xEdit, and I do all the plugin sorting/grouping in standalone LOOT. This mod doesn't add anything I was missing, it doesn't make the tasks easier or more dependable, but it is removing important information I rely on. So I'll pass for the time being.

In fairness, it's an early beta release likely awaiting this kind of feedback.

At the same time, I agree with your assessment, but I've always wanted the ability to see plugin conflicts in MO. For me, that's it's current usefulness ... just a quick snapshot of what's up in the Plugins tab without running xEdit. I also like the parallelism of conflict visualizations in the plugin context with that of the installed-mod context. Some of it is redundant, yes, but the contexts are quite different. I'm keenly aware that this seems to be reliant on LOOT metadata, which is curated and not real-time-factual (i.e., prone to human error and lag time for humans to add/correct it). Nevertheless, I like the insights it provides into LOOT logic.

It's the 'groups' functionality and seemingly variable outcomes with LOOT standalone versus MO's integrated LOOT instance (which I've always disliked in comparison, since the latter is barebones in terms of its UI). Butch seems to get groups from LOOT standalone, but I do not (I only get them using the integrated LOOT, which I immediately disabled when it blew up the custom groups I created via this extension). Given what I think I've learned, custom group creation via this extension seems nonsensical and conflicting with it's apparent reliance on LOOT metadata.

I've also been looking closely at the cyan/magenta "archive conflict" indicators and am seeing some inconsistencies for that. Some archive-conflict overrides trigger these indicators, while others do not, and I have yet to find the pattern that triggers it.

Triggered:

Not triggered:

[Mousetick]

6 hours ago, z929669 said:

I've also been looking closely at the cyan/magenta "archive conflict" indicators and am seeing some inconsistencies for that. Some archive-conflict overrides trigger these indicators, while others do not, and I have yet to find the pattern that triggers it.

I have no idea what the screenshots are supposed to show, but it's not your fault I hate the conflict highlighting of MO2 (the one which occurs on the left side). The constant colored flashing on/off like a Christmas tree as I click on different mods in the mod list, drives me nuts. I have learned not to pay attention to it and try to ignore it but it's still very distracting. So it's the same with this mod on the right side.

This is not useful information, especially in a long list that's only partially shown. The +/- conflict icons are much more interesting and useful to me. And they're a lot clearer/meaningful, compared to some colors like cyan or magenta.

 

[ButchDiavolo]

15 hours ago, Mousetick said:

As for the other main features:

• The visual indication of (certain) record conflicts is nice, but redundant with checking for conflicts in xEdit.
• The visual indication of asset conflicts in BSAs is nice, but it's not a complete solution, as it doesn't take loose files into account.

 

Speculation on my part, based on comments on the mod page and general mod description: I think the visual indicators are meant to show conflicts in the MO2 UI, so you can see conflicts immediately, without having to open xEdit. You can then right-click the mod and see which assets are conflicting. If they need patching, you can then use xEdit to correct the conflicts.

I have stopped using it for now, because it looks too different from what I am used to. Despite it being handy, I am too busy with my modlist to learn a new way right now. When I have settled on a mod list for a while (yeah right... HA!) I will put it back and try again.

[GSDFan]

This got updated today, Bethesda Plugin Manager for Mod Organizer.

It is a MO2 plugin that gives the plugins pane a face lift and new functionality:

Notable changes from the vanilla plugin list:

• Record conflicts are indexed and shown with icons and green/red highlights
• Archive conflicts are also shown with cyan/magenta highlights
• Plugins can be grouped together manually or imported from LOOT groups
• Less use of font styles (bold, italic, etc.) on plugin names
• Better visual feedback when attempting to drag plugins to invalid positions

It was built with primary support for Skyrim Special Edition, Skyrim VR and Enderal Special Edition, but will also work with the following games:

Oblivion
Fallout 3
Fallout New Vegas
Skyrim
Enderal
Fallout 4
Fallout 4 VR
Starfield

Future  improvements are planned for these games along with basis Morrowind support.

Check the page out for more information.

[z929669]

I started a forum discussion last week under the mod's Forum tab on Nexus, and the MA responded with some useful info that's not in the Description.

Evidently, Parapets made this mod primarily as an alternative to LOOT even though there is some LOOT integration. Group creation via this extension seems nonsensical to me, given that one can create a group but cannot drag or otherwise move plugins among existing groups. One must right click a plugin and "Create group" with the same name as an existing group to effectively add that plugin. This seems unintuitive and unnecessarily limited.

There's also no way I have found to add/remove plugins from a group aside from using CTRL to select plugins, right click, and "Create group". One must right click the group, select "Remove group", and start over. Additionally, LOOT (integrated or standalone) will destroy any groups you create on first sort or on sort when the LO changes. I think group maintenance features of this extension need a rework. Otherwise, the LOOT integration seems rather iffy to me, and I don't really see any use for it.

So ignoring groups, I like this extension for the fast insights it provides without having to run xEdit, but I've yet to use it fully until I get back into guide development (once the 1170 mod support is more established).

[GSDFan]

2 hours ago, z929669 said:

So ignoring groups, I like this extension for the fast insights it provides without having to run xEdit, but I've yet to use it fully until I get back into guide development (once the 1170 mod support is more established).

In Starfield LOOT is non-functional and I wish I can disable the Sort button, but that being said dragging an ESM into another group works for me as well as right click/ send to group.  If that is the only ESM in a group then that group will go away, so persistent groups would be nice.

I have been using the "Open Plugin info" to see a quick representation of the mods conflicts. My use case is to start xEdit and then unlock MO2 and view conflicts. I then make a decision as to what mods should win the conflict, close down xEdit and adjust load order of the ESM.

I lost track of this plugin for a while, so I have not really tried it until this update.

[z929669]

23 minutes ago, GSDFan said:

In Starfield LOOT is non-functional and I wish I can disable the Sort button, but that being said dragging an ESM into another group works for me as well as right click/ send to group.  If that is the only ESM in a group then that group will go away, so persistent groups would be nice.

Hmmm, I don't see that, and I have the latest version:

the only 'group' function I see is "Create group", no matter what plugin I choose.

I do have "Remove group" if I right click on a group name though:

Well, now I do see a "Send to" > Group function, which wasn't there previously, but I still see no way to modify an existing group outside of remove/recreate. It only works on a non-group-affiliated plugin though. Maybe Parapets added some functions based upon my or others' feedback.

[GSDFan]

It appears that the right click menu will change depending on what is selected. I see a difference between the official files, a separator and a regular plugin.

[z929669]

2 hours ago, GSDFan said:

It appears that the right click menu will change depending on what is selected. I see a difference between the official files, a separator and a regular plugin.

OK, so we can move around mod plugins by dragging or using "Send to">Group, but this cannot be done with official plugins. This is making more sense to me now. I swear I couldn't drag anything in my previous version ... 1.1 or 1.2 I think. Perhaps I failed to test it though.