Reading Is Good (SKSE) (by Parapets)

[z929669]

Discussion topic:
Reading Is Good (SKSE) by Parapets
Wiki Link

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I feel like @Mousetick or someone else previously recommended this, but I couldn't find it.

It looks like an immersion winner to me.

[Mousetick]

I don't think it was me, or I don't remember. But coincidentally I've been using this mod in my current playthrough.

It works as advertised. Or at least it appears to, going by the bonuses displayed in its MCM, but it's hard to tell for sure without looking at the actual before/after skill gain numbers and I have no idea how to do that. One thing is working for sure: reading a skill book no longer gives a skill point.

As per its description, it grants +4% per book and it's capped at 5 books per skill.

I patched it in xEdit to nerf the bonus per book (+2% instead of +4%) and to increase the book cap (10 instead of 5) because I have mods that add more skill books to the game, such as BCS - Lost Library (part of STEP). I also felt that the default +4% permanent bonus per book might be OP... +4% skill points x skill books over the course of an entire game seems to me like quite a lot of skill points compared to a one-time skill level per book. But I really don't know, it's just an impression.

Last, I can't tell how balanced it actually is with vanilla levelling mechanics, as my game is modded to decouple character XP and levels from skill XP and levels (i.e. gaining skill XP and levels has no effect on my character XP and level). I also modified the skill XP curves to be much harder at low levels (half of vanilla skill gain) and flatter than vanilla, using Skill Uncapper. So the little skill bonuses provided by this mod are very useful and valuable for my modded game - assuming that they do work.

[Mousetick]

Thinking more about this, we can roughly approximate the results of using this mod in a best case scenario.

Assuming one skill book is found very early in the game, its bonus will apply to the whole game. For example, in a pure vanilla play, there is an Archery skill book that can be found in Helgen Keep during the escape quest. There are 100 levels per skill, ignoring Legendary skills to simplify. Therefore a 4% bonus would result in gaining a total of 4 skill levels spread over the course of the game, by reading this one book early. Compared to 1 skill level gained by reading the book in vanilla.

That's not entirely correct, because skills levels start at 15 for a new character, and at 20 or 25 depending on race:

• 100 - 25 = 75 * 0.04 = 3 skill levels
• 100 - 20 = 80 * 0.04 = 3.2 skill levels
• 100 - 15 = 85 * 0.04 = 3.4 skill levels

It does seem like the bonuses provided by this mod can result in significantly more skills levels per book than in vanilla, depending on when the book is read.

But the previous calculations are an extreme example - not all skill books will be found simultaneously at the beginning. Let's see what happens with a skill book found later in the game, say when the current skill level is 50, with 50 levels remaining: 100 - 50 = 50 * 0.04 = 2 skill levels. That's still twice as many levels compared to vanilla.

It's hard to compare this mod with vanilla in terms of balance and power curve because the payoff is not immediate and varies based on timing, but as-is it looks in theory a little overpowered to me.

[DoubleYou]

I agree that this may be slightly overpowered. However, given that there are very few players like myself who will play their character until they beat the ebony warrior, it may not be as pronounced as calculated, and would ideally need to be tested during a playthrough. 

[Greg]

I found this from Parapets posted in the mod forum.

Quote

[3:39 PM] meh321: i'm doing a playthrough now where every book i read increases my skill learning speed by 1.01x (exponentially) but the catch is i start at 0x speed
[3:40 PM] meh321: apocrypha will be heaven when i reach there hehe
[3:41 PM] Parapets: 0*1.01 is 0
[3:41 PM] meh321: yes but the formula is:
multiplier = base + flat * read_count + (exp ^ read_count - 1)
base = 0
flat = 0
exp = 1.01

 

[z929669]

8 hours ago, Mousetick said:

Thinking more about this, we can roughly approximate the results of using this mod in a best case scenario.

Assuming one skill book is found very early in the game, its bonus will apply to the whole game. For example, in a pure vanilla play, there is an Archery skill book that can be found in Helgen Keep during the escape quest. There are 100 levels per skill, ignoring Legendary skills to simplify. Therefore a 4% bonus would result in gaining a total of 4 skill levels spread over the course of the game, by reading this one book early. Compared to 1 skill level gained by reading the book in vanilla.

That's not entirely correct, because skills levels start at 15 for a new character, and at 20 or 25 depending on race:

• 100 - 25 = 75 * 0.04 = 3 skill levels
• 100 - 20 = 80 * 0.04 = 3.2 skill levels
• 100 - 15 = 85 * 0.04 = 3.4 skill levels

It does seem like the bonuses provided by this mod can result in significantly more skills levels per book than in vanilla, depending on when the book is read.

But the previous calculations are an extreme example - not all skill books will be found simultaneously at the beginning. Let's see what happens with a skill book found later in the game, say when the current skill level is 50, with 50 levels remaining: 100 - 50 = 50 * 0.04 = 2 skill levels. That's still twice as many levels compared to vanilla.

It's hard to compare this mod with vanilla in terms of balance and power curve because the payoff is not immediate and varies based on timing, but as-is it looks in theory a little overpowered to me.

All good observations, but the reason I like it is that it changes learning from books to be taking effect over time of gameplay after reading a book rather than all at once in terms of leveling. With 'good' settings, this is more immersive and fluid, IMO.

So I like this one out of the box but do see value in possibly tweaking the config a bit.

[Mousetick]

2 hours ago, Greg said:

I found this from Parapets posted in the mod forum.

[...]

That comment was from meh321 (the MA of SSE Gameplay Tweaks) explaining to Parapets (the MA of this mod) how SSE Gameplay Tweaks' reading bonus works. SSE Gameplay Tweaks has a similar but more general and configurable feature whereby reading a book (potentially ANY book depending on configuration) gives a bonus to ALL skills learning, using a complex exponential formula:

AllSkillsBonus = Base + (AmountFlat * BookReadCount) + (AmountExponent ^ (BookReadCount - 1))

Whereas this mod's formula is unknown and undocumented, but based on its description and behavior is assumed to be a flat multiplier: SkillBonus = 4 * SkillBookReadCount

[Mousetick]

Don't get me wrong, I like this mod quite a bit too. Otherwise I wouldn't be playing with it  It's an SKSE plugin + some magic effects + some scripts, easy to uninstall if desired.

I just like it better nerfed a bit.

I agree with DY that this is probably not a big issue for most players. I'm not sure it can be tested during a playthrough, though: how would you characterize and reproduce an average or typical playthrough?

Edit: not simply an SKSE plugin.

[DoubleYou]

I mean that if you play for awhile, does it seem like it was too easy too quickly? Skyrim doesn't level well, so you generally find enemies become too easy the faster you level up. Did this point happen earlier than desired.

I do like the immersion factor to this.

[TechAngel85]

14 hours ago, Mousetick said:

I patched it in xEdit to nerf the bonus per book (+2% instead of +4%) and to increase the book cap (10 instead of 5) because I have mods that add more skill books to the game, such as BCS - Lost Library (part of STEP). I also felt that the default +4% permanent bonus per book might be OP... +4% skill points x skill books over the course of an entire game seems to me like quite a lot of skill points compared to a one-time skill level per book. But I really don't know, it's just an impression.

My concern when I read the mod description. I thought it would be OP, but ~3 points over the course of the game isn't bad.

1 hour ago, DoubleYou said:

I mean that if you play for awhile, does it seem like it was too easy too quickly? Skyrim doesn't level well, so you generally find enemies become too easy the faster you level up. Did this point happen earlier than desired.

I do like the immersion factor to this.

This is what I would look for as well. Not only that, but also does it fit and is it too much of a jarring change? Users have been used to getting the skill point immediately for 10 years and you're wanting to change that behavior. I collect books and am also on the hunt for skill books.

One thing I will say it this mod makes more sense because it takes time to learn a new skill.

[Mousetick]

1 hour ago, DoubleYou said:

I mean that if you play for awhile, does it seem like it was too easy too quickly? Skyrim doesn't level well, so you generally find enemies become too easy the faster you level up. Did this point happen earlier than desired.

Not sure if this was a rhetorical question or you were asking me, but I can't answer. Like I said previously, my modded game deviates too much from vanilla levelling mechanics and formulae, for my particular gameplay experience with this mod to be meaningful to others.

What is almost certain is that the longer you play and the more skill books you read, the faster your skills (and thereby your character) will level, at the same time potentially giving access to more perks faster. If multiple skills grow faster, and therefore level faster, in parallel, mechanically the character levels faster.

Keep in mind the cap is 5 skill books (up to +20% bonus) per skill. Not 5 books total.

It's relatively easy to find 2 skill books for a skill, giving +8% bonus - not too shabby. Combined with a standing stone bonus, this can be a huge boost.

Please take my opinion with a large pinch of salt - it's very biased in this regard, and it's unsubstantiated.

If you want to do all the math, and predict the skill and level progression with/out the bonus(es), there are some formulae available on UESP.

Rough approximation with a +8% bonus, rounded to 10% to simplify: every 10 skill levels increase relative to any given starting skill level, the player with this mod will be one more skill level ahead of a player without this mod. Since reading the skill book in vanilla grants one skill level, the first 10 skill levels increase is a draw. The difference will become apparent starting at the 20th skill level increase: +1 level ahead compared to vanilla. Then at the 30th skill level increase: +2 levels ahead. And so on. I hope this looks about right, if not please correct me.

[DoubleYou]

It was rhetorical. This is just the thought process I would have evaluating it.

[z929669]

9 hours ago, Mousetick said:

Not sure if this was a rhetorical question or you were asking me, but I can't answer. Like I said previously, my modded game deviates too much from vanilla levelling mechanics and formulae, for my particular gameplay experience with this mod to be meaningful to others.

What is almost certain is that the longer you play and the more skill books you read, the faster your skills (and thereby your character) will level, at the same time potentially giving access to more perks faster. If multiple skills grow faster, and therefore level faster, in parallel, mechanically the character levels faster.

Keep in mind the cap is 5 skill books (up to +20% bonus) per skill. Not 5 books total.

It's relatively easy to find 2 skill books for a skill, giving +8% bonus - not too shabby. Combined with a standing stone bonus, this can be a huge boost.

Please take my opinion with a large pinch of salt - it's very biased in this regard, and it's unsubstantiated.

If you want to do all the math, and predict the skill and level progression with/out the bonus(es), there are some formulae available on UESP.

Rough approximation with a +8% bonus, rounded to 10% to simplify: every 10 skill levels increase relative to any given starting skill level, the player with this mod will be one more skill level ahead of a player without this mod. Since reading the skill book in vanilla grants one skill level, the first 10 skill levels increase is a draw. The difference will become apparent starting at the 20th skill level increase: +1 level ahead compared to vanilla. Then at the 30th skill level increase: +2 levels ahead. And so on. I hope this looks about right, if not please correct me.

I don't have the time or inclination to check your math/logic The assessment rings true and is inherently logical, so I think this mod would be a nice addition with some modest nerfing to map ideally to vanilla (in which case I will need to look at the logic more closely). From your assessments from researching an using it, I am all the more interested in advocating it for myself and for Step