Nearox

I had an interesting conversation with the mod author (lifestorock) with regards to ctds/freezes due to worldspace/cell edits. He says he and his testing team cannot find any reproducable issue with SIC worldspace/cell edits (nor when combined with SkyTEST, see below). Nevertheless, as many here are very much aware of, a Skyrim loaded up with texture packs and gameplay mods can in quite a number of cases become particularly unstable when spawns are added to the mix. While one can currently use the MCM menu to individually toggle off about 80% of worldspace/cell edits done by the mod, he said to me that he will know implement a collective toggle that disables any and all worldspace edits, as of version 7.0. Yay! Now SIC will stay in my mod list forever :) Putting some quotes here for your reference: Lifestorock also pointed me to a post he recently made on the SkyTEST forum, with regards to compatibilities between the 2 mods and with regards to false beliefs that some users hold:

If you did the following, then that would explain why you went from 60fps to 45fps in step 3. "Under Antialiasing, select 4 Samples, as the difference between 4 Samples and 8 Samples is very subtle and not worth the performance loss (per Tweakguides). Drop down to 2 Samples as a last-resort to improve performance. NOTE: If using SMAA, set this value to zero. This change is appropriate for all systems that meet or exceed the Minimum hardware specification." The reason you're running at 60fps again is most likely because your AA is disabled. You could try out SMAA injector as an alternative.

The 1.2 versions doesn't have that many conflicts anymore, though there are still some present. I made a patch for Dragonborn (about 15 conflicts or so) and for the USKP (which has only 1 conflict). If anyone wants to use them instead of dragging over the records yourself, I did a quick upload so feel free to grab them here. EDIT: Also made patches for DG (didn't touch any of the small conflicts, too much work for now), SkyRe and 'qotsafans Miscellaneous Reprocerrer + IA + Destruction Tweak Atronach 50 Patch' FYI: I put the AOS.esp at the bottom of the Sounds category in BUM. https://www.speedyshare.com/UZAZV/Audio-Overhaul-for-Skyrim-Patches.rar

Reading your comments, I think I will do just about that: remove some of the NPC's spells through tes5edit. The main enhancement this mod brings is to the bosses and unique enemies. With regards to Dawnguard requirement, one user said: It requires Dawnguard due to the Bat power added to vampires. The author says: I make dawnguard mandatory because I use many magic effects from this dlc. I suppose it is the latter, but it will most likely be limited to vampires so if you remove the records from that then dawnguard should no longer be required I think.

Sorry if I didn't explain it better, but modding is hard in the beginning and you'll need to learn what a lot of things mean - most of us had to go through that some point in time.You can identify STEP:Core mods by the green colored bar to the left of the mod name. Everything else can be considered extended. Also I would advise you to use Mod Organizer instead of NMM. For setting up Mod Organizer, you can follow the Skyrim Revisited guide parts "script extenders" as well as 3.1, 3.3, 3.4, 3.5 and 3.6. https://wiki.step-project.com/User:Neovalen/Skyrim_Revisited I agree with Aiyen. It's best you remove all mods and also reinstall skyrim so you can ensure it is clean. If you use MO and follow the SR guide directions as I mentioned then this will be the only time you'll have to do this as you will have a permanently clean Skyrim profile in MO to which you can always go back. EDIT: Also check this https://wiki.step-project.com/Guide:Mod_Organizer

At some point you must see improvement, unless your vanilla game has the same issues. You can obviously also do it the other way around, start with zero mods and then add them per category. Make sure you are running a default low/medium/high/ultra INI (made from launcher).

I'd be surprised if anyone would NOT have CTDs with that kind of modlist. You really need to reduce the amount of gameplay/scripted mods, starting first of all with warzones. Why don't you first do a STEP core install, follow it to the letter, and see if that works? Then add a non-STEP or STEP-extended mod one at a time. You didn't follow the STEP instructions properly, seeing as you have more than 20 secunda/masser esps whereas it should be one of each. You also didn't run BOSS or didn't run it properly. No offense but I doubt anyone can help you with a modlist like that, especially since you don't even have the basics setup in a proper manner. Start with STEP Core only, you won't regret it.

Enemy AI OverHaul---Revenge Of the Enemies---No Scripts Version Playing SkyRe + some other gameplay mods helps reduce the tedious combat of vanilla, but it does not fundamentally change enemy melee and magic skills. Found this mod today on the nexus and am wondering if anyone here is using it or has used it in the past. The mod basically adds certain spells, abilities and a specific AI to particular mobs - dungeon bosses, bandit leaders, dragon priests etc. I really like the fact that it does not use any scripts. It would require some patching with SkyRe and other mods, hence why I am am curious to hear what you guys think about it before I start doing the patching. Mod Author's description: Here's what one user reports after using the mod:

I'm using it as well, the falskaar DG patch is simply one FormID addition.

I completely agree with this and I will never make it a platform for mod-bashing or stating that a particular mod is bad. I'll always respect the mod authors and their intentions to improve upon the game. I'm thinking that I may start off by categorizing the mods according to their perceived risk to stability. For example in my MO, I have 3 categories for script mods: low risk, medium risk and high risk. The risk assesment is based on both subjective and objective factors, for instance script update frequency/overall intensity, amount of scripts, issue reports on nexus/step forums, whether additional NPC behaviour/content is added (through e.g. worldspace edits/spawns/NPC spells etc.) or whether it merely edits a vanilla skyrim script, etc. etc. I have already made notes for certain mods. To come back to Wet and Cold as an example, due to its modular nature it can be an extremely light-weight mod if you turn only 1 non-SKSE feature on and leave the rest disabled but it can be quite a high risk factor (as indicated by the author himself) if all the modules are turned on - in particular the SKSE dependent ones such as NPC clothing. Therefore, although a mod can be placed in the high (or I might name it 'higher' in order not to give the reader the idea that the mod is inherently unstable) risk category, I will attach my own notes, user's (i.e. your) notes and when available comments of the mod developer. To give some more indications, here's a small selection of my mods and how I have classified them: Lower risk: Appropriately Attired Jarls, Dual Wield Parrying, Auto Unequip Ammo, 101Bugs. Medium risk: Run for Your Lives, Lighting During Thunder Storms (papyrus log spamming errors for multiple users, otherwise works fine), Achieve That, Immersive Patrols (depending on which modules installed). Higher risk: Interesting NPCs, Skyrim Redone, SkyTEST, SIC (if additional spawns enabled, otherwise medium risk), AV, ASIS, Organized Bandits. Everything is open to discussion; what I put in the OP is my suggestion and I'll be glad to hear criticism about a particular mod's category. I'll have to further define the categories and the requirements. Another idea I have is to develop a conceptual package which serves as the framework for analysis. It can be assumed that most users have 1 perk overhaul/combat mod (SkyRe, SPERG, ACE , Duel etc.), 2-4 NPC-affecting mods (GDO, Run for your lives, Cloaks of Skyrim, Wet and Cold/Get Snowy, Banodlier for NPCS, Lanterns for Guards, SIC/SkyTest, Traps make Noise etc.) and another 2-4 miscellaneous mods (Dance of Death, Face to Face conversation, AutoPV, Gildergreen Regrown etc.). Any particular mod will then be judged based on how well it would potentially run within such a framework.Â

@Deathwing: Yeah I've read and known about those mods for some time. Removed BFS and DSI from mod list long ago. Never had Warzones because so many people report issues with it. The script latency feature is nice and I've been using it, but I am not entirely sure that latency by itself is a good indication of stability, though it can help. Some scripts conflict, overlap or simply apply too many different things to an npc causing the game to crash. What is nice about the CH function though, is that right after loading a game it display a high script latency (usualyl between 400 and 700ms on my install) from which I suppose one can derive the proper setting for the papyrus fPostLoadUpdateTimeMS=x setting. @Aiyen, indeed and like I said in the OP, a lot of these things are not new for you and many experienced others. But there is not 1 central point of information about this, even though script mods are the topic of a vast amount of issues here. I think it would be a good idea, for both the more experienced/knowledgable and the less, to have one topic with a compilation of known possible issues with a certain script mod or a combination of such mods. In my view, such a compilation would not try to portray absolute solutions or answers, but would rather be more like a collection of informed opinions/experiences/knowledge about running several script mods simultaneously. It would also extend to leveled lists and to cloaking feature stability issues. I would like to work on this thread and to continuously make changes to the OP, so that it gradually becomes more like a guide and/or base of reference for readers. I'll collect information in the next few days and add it to the OP.

May or may not be something new for all of you, but I am personally still trying to get a good estimate of the limits of the skyrim engine. Very hard to find useful information about this anywhere on the internet.  I therefore thought it would be a good idea to open a thread about script mods and to share our experiences with them, in particular how well a combination of mods plays out for you. What are your thoughts about Skyrim's scripting limitations? At which point do you believe that scripts start to cause unacceptable levels of ctds/freezes (as per your own definitions)? Which combination of script mods could you identify as a likely cause for stability/instability, and why? In what ways do you quantify your maximum allowed number of script mods? Instead of starting by sharing my own experiences, which only go back to about 2 months of Skyrim modding, I suppose one of the best sources to quote for opening this thread is a renowned script mod author himself. About a week ago, Isoku posted some interesting insights with regards to total script load of the skyrim engine. Copy/pasting some of the conversation here for easy reference. Check here for more: https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/844188-wet-and-cold/page-192&do=findComment&comment=9319199 observations by domw response by Isoku comments by ploeperpengel Edit: updated with correct Isoku post

Not sure if the following is useful information, but I'm using CoT + CoT Fog Rain Overcast prod80 + Supreme and Volumetric Fog. None carry fog textures with them, all changes are done through the .esp. There are 6 fog weather records (and six sub-fog records) in skyrim.esm as far as I remember, perhaps you can check there in tes5edit to see if they point to a certain texture file.

I'd recommended to make a new profile in MO just for testing. Copy your current one. Then disable gameplay mods. Check FPS. Disable Sound mods. Check FPS. Disable Clutter & Miscellaeous, check FPS. You should use the coc riverwood console command. When ingame type: player.setav speedmult 500. Also type: tgm. Then do test runs to where you had your issues. This way you can find where the (biggest) culprit is, and can limit down the range of mods that can pssibly cause this issue. If it happens to be grass, you could check out Grass on Steroids and put iMinGrassSize=100 or higher for a noticable performance gain. Also, while the 7970M is the most powerful mobile gpu, it's score is roughly equivalent to my HD6950 2GB. I can tell you that full STEP consumes about 80-90% of my vram, with spikes to 100% - i.e. if I do not DDSopt some of the texture packs. FPS can surely drop to about 40-50fps in some areas if I have 4x AA on. You can check out how your GPU compares at https://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2300495 . 7970M has pretty much similar horse power to 'Tier E Mid-Upper Mid-Range'

Vurt, I didn't get back to you yet on nexus about the transparent trees. Your optional file solved the issue for those 2 trees, so thanks a lot for that!

I would start by disabling all the distance terrain & LOD mods, see if that resolves the fps issue. Also make sure you did the SFO tweaks as per https://wiki.step-project.com/Skyrim_Flora_Overhaul#Recommendations

No problem. Thanks for the fix. Now I'm getting curious as to what exactly this setting does. I know it affects game stability when entering large interiors/interiors with many modded textures but what exactly are the mechanics behind this setting? Why 131072, what does the number represent? Is it measured in bytes, seeing as it is equivalent to 128mb? What is the default setting?

Not sure whether to put this question in this thread, in the 2.2.7 development thread or to make a new thread. In version 2.2.6 and earlier, there used to be 'iLargeIntRefCount=131072' in the INI tweaks section. In version 2.2.7 this entry no longer exists. This removal is not mentioned in the changelog and a forum search produces no results. I'm wondering what your reason is to leave it out, because if it is no longer recommended then I'll remove it from my INI settings.

I thought 128 was the minimum :P

What you describe is usually a nexus server issue. I have this quite often. Wait a few minutes or do the manual download and put it in your folder.

The author has made several attempts during the last weeks to fix the tool. I;m using the latest WIP and I no longer experience issues with it. Works flawlessly on my system. Using BW plugin version 1.x in the ini (which is now the default, i guess having BW plugin 2.x as previous default is what caused a lot of issues for people, now there is at least a choice in the ini). Overall works smoother for me than using the seperate plugins. The original Borderless Window often causes a freeze at the end of loading screens, hasn't happened with the latest WIP of OneTweak yet. You can find this version here: https://www.virusdev.zz.mu/virusdev/OneTweak%20WIP/OneTweak.zip

Sure... But I think you really are mor experienced than I am with all this. You will probaly find there really is not much special about it. Perhaps that is the key to a stable modded skyrim, I don't know. Highest vram use I ever got was 1950 vram (with 4x aa). My card is a HD6950 2GB so I'm happy to be tweaked right under the limit. When I get to level 50 and if I am still stable by then, I will start to add in more script-based mods again to test it out. My papyrus log has been remarkably clean so far. Either way, can really recommend to seperate textures/meshes from scripts or simply add all script mods to the end of MO install order. They hardly overwrite anything anyways so it's good to have all scripted mods grouped up in one place to keep an overview. Also not allowing any added spawns in the exterior world. Manually deleted worldspace edits of mods doing that (e.g. SIC). MO Install list (unfortunately I can't get it sorted to the right install order. Think MO just lists exports them to csv alphabetically): . BOSS log

I was in the same boat as you Aiyen. Recently I took a modding approach which is slightly different from STEP or SR. I decided to make two test profiles in MO. One which has only textures & meshes & as few esps as possible but which excludes any and all scripted mods, while the second has (almost) no textures and meshes but is largely focused on scripted or other gameplay-related mods. This way, I could test whether both were stable seperately. Took a minimal approach to the scripted part first, focusing on SkyRe and compatibility. Then I merged both parts, ran into some instabilities, shaved off a few more things, got stable, then gradually added back things in again. And now I'm finally playing. :)

Nice list rootsrat. Kinda excited about JDR as I find that FMO just adds way too many tracks which makes it less immersive rather than more. Gonna replace it with JDR now and see :)

Haha what you just described rootsrat sounds exactly what I've been through. And while my game is stable and I am enjoying it, I am already contemplating to install this and that mod, make an additional compatibility patch for some minor stuff and to start ove again using sperg or something else... argh!