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MysticDaedra

Ordinator - Perks of Skyrim (by Enai Siaion)

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Since T3ndo announced he is not currently planning on any further updates to Perkus Maximus due to RL issues, and his endorsement of this new perk overhaul... Any opinions on viability with SR:LE?

 

Finally got PerMa mostly working with my installation, and I love how everything gets rebalanced, including custom armors/weapons and the like. Don't have to manually edit custom armors to not be OP anymore, same for weapons. Ordinator doesn't do this, as it makes no use of SkyProccer. Even though that is a huge compatibility issue, and the process often breaks things and takes forever and a day (at least on my i5 2500K), it is still a great gameplay feature of PerMa once everything is working right.

 

Thoughts? Suggestions? 

 

Ordinator - Perks of Skyrim

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Looks interesting. Where'd the part that T3nd0 isn't doing any more updates to Perma come from, though?

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Hmmm, Bugger.

 

Well as it happens I'm in the process of doing a whole new mod list from fresh sheet of paper, SR:LE, REGS and was going to do Perma again, but might try Ordinator instead and see what comes of it.

 

Give SR:LE has a few difficulty raising mods like OBIS and High Level Enemies in it already, Ordinator should fit in nicely. 

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I'm playing a Ranger/Archer character. To be honest, after looking over the perks for archery, they make little to no sense when it comes to realism (I used to be in archery myself). However, on that note, some of Perma's changes to archery do not make any sense either.

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I'm using this and quite enjoying it. It really is very compatible: it conflicted even less than TTRSO for me, and I quite like the selection of perks available. Hopefully some of the larger packs consider using Ordinator, because I doubt it would be let in STEP Core or Extended. (I hope it's considered for Extended, at least!)

 

I'm playing a Ranger/Archer character. To be honest, after looking over the perks for archery, they make little to no sense when it comes to realism (I used to be in archery myself). However, on that note, some of Perma's changes to archery do not make any sense either.

To be fair, the perk trees in general would be really boring if they were realistic.

Edited by Harpalus

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To be fair, the perk trees in general would be really boring if they were realistic.

True. I'm specifically speaking of the augmentation and damage changes to the perks:

 

Archery

    0 - Archery Mastery (2) - Bows and crossbows deal 20/40% more damage. (Okay makes sense as you get better with the bows you'd be more skilled to hit vital spots.)

    20 - Wingstrike (2) - Bows and crossbows have 25/50% chance to/always deal 50% more damage to a target at full Health. (why? ...seems like cheating.)

    30 - Clean Kill (3) - Bows and crossbows have 25/50/75% chance to deal double damage to a target at full Health.  (same as above. The damage should be relatively the same regardless of NPC health. NPC health should have no relation to bow damage.)

    30 - Long Shot (3) - Bows and crossbows deal 10/20/30% more damage for each 25 feet beyond the first 50 feet, up to 40/80/120%. (Makes some sense as the arrow hits is terminal velocity as it travels, thus doing more damage but I don't think this should increase. Should be a one tier perk.)

    30 - Steady Hand (3) - Pressing Block while aiming will zoom in your view/ and slow time by 25/50%. (not real but in vanilla)

    40 - Arrow to the Knee - Shooting a target within 25 feet slows them by 10% for 20 seconds. This effect stacks. (makes sense that taking an arrow would slow an enemy...you try to run with an arrow in your side!)

    40 - Hunter's Discipline - Recover twice as many arrows from dead bodies. (vanilla)

    40 - Thread the Needle (2) - Bows and crossbows ignore 25/50% of enemy armor if the target is standing still. (okay. Makes sense as you'd be able to aim for a weak spot on the armor better)

    50 - Oath Shot - Shooting a target within 10 feet increases your damage with melee weapons against that target by 50% for 6 seconds. (what the....really? why? How is shooting a bow remotely connected to your melee damage with melee weapons?)

    50 - Power Shot - Arrows briefly stagger all but the largest opponents 50% of the time. (vanilla)

    50 - Ranger - Can move at full speed with a drawn bow. (vanilla)

    60 - As The Wind - Move 5% faster for 20 seconds after shooting a fully drawn bow or crossbow in combat. This effect stacks. (again...why? makes no sense. If anything you'd be more tired from drawing the bow.)

    60 - Quick Shot - Can draw a bow or reload a crossbow 30% faster. (vanilla)

    70 - Hawk's Perch - After standing still for 6 seconds with a bow or crossbow out, it does 40% more damage until you move. (makes sense as your aim would be steadier than when in motion but 40% seems overpowered...maybe half that. Combine this with Long Shot and you're really getting overpowered!)

    70 - Raven ****** - Enemies within 25 feet are disarmed when shot during their power attack. (yes and no...should depend on the weight of the weapon the NPC is welding and if they were staggered or not during the shot because realistically a power attack would still follow through simply due to momentum unless the NPC is staggered during the attack.)

    80 - Hailstorm - Attack 15% faster with bows and crossbows for 15 seconds after shooting a fully drawn bow or crossbow in combat. This effect stacks. (huh? why? Drawing a bow in rapid succession if very tiring!)

    80 - Lead the Target - Bows and crossbows deal 15% more damage to walking targets, 25% more damage to running targets, and 50% more damage and a critical strike to sprinting targets. No effect on massive targets. (this makes no sense whatsoever! Moving targets are harder to hit so why would you be able to do more damage?)

    90 - Deadeye - Every fourth fully drawn shot in combat deals 250% more damage to a target beyond 25 feet. (.... :dry: )

    90 - Takedown - Shooting a staggered target within 10 feet is a critical strike and knocks the target down. (this makes sense as the target would be completely wide open for a critical hit)

    100 - Perfect Draw - Bows deal 25% more damage if the shot strikes a target within 2 seconds after the bow is fully drawn. Does not affect crossbows. (...why?)

 

All in all, this overhaul makes bows way overpowered, imo. Especially when you start stacking these perks. That's the problem with these perk overhauls and why none have ever been added to STEP. Instead of just fixing, adding in a few lore/vanilla-friendly options, and balancing them out, most of the overhauls tend to overpower the PC. Take Deadeye for example. Why in the world would every 4th arrow cause 250% more damage? What is so special about that shot over the first three?

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I don't think you should focus on realism so much tbh. I also don't believe that a single mod (except bug fixes) is 'vanilla-friendly' simply because.. its purpose is to change the vanilla game! As for lore-friendliness.. I don't think it applies that much to perk overhauls unless you get perks that summon guns or whatever.

 

I've played games like Guild Wars (1) where you are limited to a set of 8 skills at a time. Builds are very important and in pvp level does not matter at all. I feel a lot of ideas in this mod are inspired by other (MMO)RPGs and don't necessarily 'make sense' from a realistic point of view, and imo they do not have to. I think the idea is to supply a number of interesting and different perks, but it is up to the player how exactly he makes his 'build' and comes up with creative ways to make perks work with each other. This mod is made with the vanilla perk gaining system in mind (he stated he doesn't like using the Uncapper) so the amount of perks you'd get is pretty limited compared to SPERG for example (which gives you a ton of 'passive' perks without spending points). The idea is not so much that you just stack perk upon perk upon perk and get severely overpowered in the process (although I assume you have to take some perks in order to gain access to others(?)). Compared to online RPGs, Skyrim can easily be 'scummed' anyway if you choose to do so (save/load pickpocketing, abusing AI etc). Basically you have the choice to be as OP as you yourself want to be.

 

As The Wind plus Cripple for example can result in a hit and kite kind of play (with perhaps light armor perks). With Hawk's Perch plus Oath Shot you can weaken opponents before finishing them off in melee combat (so you can invest in some melee skill trees and possible in blocking/heavy armor). Powershot + Takedown seem perfect for making builds that aim for critical hits (perhaps they synergize well with perks from other trees). I have not played as an archer with this mod myself but to me it all looks very interesting.

 

That said, I have to agree with you on the increased damage when the target is at full health. When playing as an archer without any followers, your targets have no reason not to be at full health until you shoot them.. Seems a bit too strong. Again, I have not playtested it. But I'd think a nice replacement perk would be an increased critical chance/extra damage when their hp is below 25 or 50% (some sort of finishing move). Deadeye also seems a bit weird unless maybe your previous three shots have succesfully hit a target beyond 25 feet. Perfect Draw is the only one that really doesn't make sense to me.

 

So yeah in conclusion I love the potential of these perks compared to vanilla. There are also two options available now: version 1.04 (a general nerf because of people complaining about it being OP) and version 1.02x (not nerfed, but has the bugfixes included in 1.04). I think both will be maintained in future updates. You can pick one and try to balance your own game, be it through global difficulty, SIC, ASIS, High Level Enemies, OBIS, Combat Evolved, Deadly Combat, Action Combat etc. I understand that it is tough to recommend this for inclusion in STEP, but I can see it being a potential candidate for packs that go beyond STEP:Extended

Edited by Pretendeavor

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Enai addressed the "OP"-ness of the first few versions of the mod. 1.04 nerfed everything apparently, with the result that everyone started complaining that it is now Under Powered lol. The mod is brand new, only a few days old, so I suspect there will be a lot of changes coming. Balance seems to always be a tricky thing in games, perk overhauls being no exception. T3ndo had an advantage, as he'd already been balancing SkyRe for the last few years. He could draw from that to make PerMa balanced from the get-go.

 

My question would be this: which version would people recommend to download? Any additional mods that should be used in conjunction with Ordinator that might not be in SR:LE or any of the other guides on STEP?

 

Assuming one wanted an experience similar to Perkus Maximus, I would recommend downloading Wintermyst. PerMa came with a custom version of it, but Ordinator doesn't, you have to get it similarly. For all your additional epic enchantments.

Edited by MysticDaedra

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One thing you should keep in mind is that Skyrim is not realistic.
No amount of mods is going to make it realistic - with the exception of the mod that gives both players and enemies 10 times as much damage. Health bars are not realistic. Hitting people on the head with a greatsword and them not dying in a gnarly pool of brain jam that converts you into a peace activist for life is not realistic. What would archery look like in a realistic setting? You deal more damage when shooting enemies in the face at point blank range, and your "reward" for pulling off a crazy sniper shot is less damage because the arrow slows down due to air resistance. Do we want to encourage dumb easy shots and discourage hard ones in a video game? No.

 

Since combat is not realistic, and trying to make it more realistic makes it boring, it is better to go for METAL instead.
Why do you deal more damage when shooting across very large distances, or with only half a second to aim? Because it's hard to do, and feels awesome when you do it, therefore these perks encourage you to do it.

 

---

 

I have a sticky post asking for feedback about balance so I can fix it. Instead of doing this, the vast majority of initial balance comments on the internet were along the lines of "meh, looks OP". There was little to no feedback about what the problem perks were, and some of the feedback I did get was baffling ("unbreakable lockpicks") or not actionable ("everything").

 

In response, I did indeed nerf everything. The patch log looked more like a League of Legends patch log under "Irelia" after she's been picked in a tournament.

 

The community complained, but it is probably for the better. The vanilla game itself is surprisingly underpowered - the only damage perks you can get are the basic skill perks, and most perks are useless filler, so giving players a wide selection of good perks is already a power boost (same argument goes for Apocalypse. More options = more power). Additional patches may be needed, but my request for feedback about balance still stands and I still make patches when people report balance issues.

 

STEP did find a few balance issues and instead of reporting its concerns, STEP chose to post this on my forum:

My Gawd, archery is so OP and senseless I don't even know where to begin.
OP and boring
pretty dumb excuses for gaining more power

 

Again it is assumed that balance issues exist on purpose because I am stupid and/or like godmode characters, despite the fact that I practically begged for feedback several times. It is not realistic to thoroughly test 418 perks with a variety of characters and popular difficulty mods while working a real job and Witanlore and the Fallout 4 deadline rapidly approaching, so I did the sensible thing and relied on initial balance feedback from the community and acted on it by releasing a large balance update within 3 days. Does the mod still have balance issues 4 days after release? Probably.

 

And therefore it has been decided by STEP that the mod is senseless, boring and dumb.

 

And you will never change your opinion, no matter how much I patch the mod. This is obvious, because you decided that reporting issues and waiting for a (fairly immediate) update was a lost cause, even though you would report bugs in the USKP instead of trashing it as a bugged piece of ****.

 

---

 

Anyway. METAL.

 

(Makes some sense as the arrow hits is terminal velocity as it travels, thus doing more damage but I don't think this should increase. Should be a one tier perk.)

 

 

Perks with multiple tiers are low level perks that could conceivably serve as a build backbone. You get them early on your way to something else, or you could choose to focus into them. One tier perks are taken "in addition" to other perks and therefore cannot be core perks. Most other trees just hide it by having high level perks upgrade low level perks, like World in Flames and War of the Elements in destruction.

 

Also nerfed in 1.05, thanks for the feedback.

 

(what the....really? why? How is shooting a bow remotely connected to your melee damage with melee weapons?)

 

 

Because Legolas and your GW2 ranger switch weapons in mid-fight. Since "damage" and "hit points" are meaningless and do not translate into real life, I chose to reward you with a higher meaningless number that helps you fight better for doing something that looks cool and is somewhat tricky to pull off.

 

(makes sense as your aim would be steadier than when in motion but 40% seems overpowered...maybe half that. Combine this with Long Shot and you're really getting overpowered!)

 

 

Actual feedback. Irrelevant feedback because clearly the mod is OP boring crap and I refuse to fix anything, but still, I just nerfed it in 1.05, thanks for the feedback. I skipped over this perk and Long Shot while performing those 82 nerfs because someone else told me that the archery tree was useless and I didn't want to accidentally overnerf it just yet. I was going to watch user feedback for a day or two and see what happens. My fault.

 

(yes and no...should depend on the weight of the weapon the NPC is welding and if they were staggered or not during the shot because realistically a power attack would still follow through simply due to momentum unless the NPC is staggered during the attack.)

 

 

Realistically you shoot an NPC and he dies.

 

Take Deadeye for example. Why in the world would every 4th arrow cause 250% more damage? What is so special about that shot over the first three?

 

 

The fact that you can't afford to miss it. Also nerfed in 1.05.

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STEP did find a few balance issues and instead of reporting its concerns, STEP chose to post this on my forum:
 
...

Not trying to fuel things up here but you should be careful with your wording.. anyone is free to join these forums and such comments don't represent 'STEP' as a whole, they're just opinions of individuals.. Much like any comment in this thread. If you read the rest of this thread not much has been said or decided at all, apart from TechAngel's ideas about adding perk mods to STEP in general. Don't assume everyone is against you man!

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Not sure who the snoozyboy who made that comment on your forum is. Checking the member list shows there's no-one called snoozyboy registered. Of course he could use a different name here.

 

Anyway, Enai, I'm fully intending on giving this a test run. Anything I find I'll report on and let you know.

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I'm also planning on installing this afternoon, restarting a character due to stutters likely because of too many high-res textures (curse you Neovalen and your god-machine lol). 2GB of VRAM doesn't cut it anymore!

 

Anyways, I will report back both here AND on your forum on the Skyrim Nexus after derping around with it in-game. Let you know my opinions.

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