Why so much MO hate? (semi-rant)

[Octopuss]

I'm sick to my stomach from all the crap certain individuals throw at MO. Yes I mean Arthmoor and his lackeys on AFK mods. Just WHY the f***ing hell can't they leave it alone? Noone is ridiculing THEM for using Wrye Bash, an abomination of a mod manager. Apparently there's a hidden hipster factor to Wrye noone else understands or I don't know what's the matter.

 

https://www.afkmods.com/index.php?/topic/4145-is-step-lying-about-mod-management/

What a pile of crap.

I really do respect Arthmoor and other people who contribute to the modding in similarly significant way, but this garbage is just way over the line.

 

because you can not create more than like a few dozens of files in virtualized Data folder without MO crashing. Add "BSA Management" in the mix that prevents reading of BSA archives by lodgen for extra headache bonus.

To quote just one of the pearls from that (there are more) thread.

MO is obviously wrong from the beginning and so bugged noone can use it properly, which must be why STEP is recommending it to hundreds or thousands of people. Oh wait, there's a conspiracy behind that:

That site DOES come across as nothing more than a promotional website for MO though.

Right.

 

Discuss.

(if you feel like it)

(no this is not meant as a trolling thread; slightly angry perhaps, but not trolling)

Edited April 16, 2015 by Octopuss

[hishutup]

Hmm, mod managers are really up to the user. I poked around with a few way back when and I disliked NMM and I had my own reasons which may or may not still be valid. Wrye Bash was okay but I didnt really get into it due to the lack of "Nexus API" and mods that lacked support for wizard.txt/bain installers. Mo is okay for skyrim but lacks features with other games, yet again, in my own opinion.

 

Mod managers can be helpful but they can only help you manage mods rather than do everything for you. I dont know, pick your poison.

 

As for STEP and MO, the site has to have some sort of standard without one, support will be lacking, in my opinion. The decision on switching to MO was before my time on this site but I believe the testers did fair comparisons from what was available at the time.

[zilav]

This is a statement of a fact - MO crashes when a lot of files being created in virtualized folder. It works for some people, and doesn't work for others. Why? I have no clue.

This was reported at MO bugtracker some time ago when I redirected another unfortunate user there, and considering it still crashes, not fixed to this day. It is also magnitudes slower when creating files. The output folder parameter was added to xEdit and xLODGen purely just because of MO. A lof of issues reported about malfunctioning of xEdit (and to some extent xLODGen) was tracked to MO usage, forcing us to even slap a label "We doesn't support MO" on TES5Edit description page in big red font.

 

I don't hate MO, I neither like or dislike it because not using it myself. What I dislike as a developer are false error reports not caused by developed applications, but rather 3rd party tools interfering in the normal functioning process and forcing me to spend *my personal* extra time making workarounds. I also dislike persons calling me "lackey" when they absolutely don't have an idea what they are talking about. If you install a new antivuris and it will prevent your modded Skyrim from launching, would you get angry at Bethesda?

 

This is a *troll* thread (you jumped on other people in the first 2 sentences without reason), better to close and delete it asap.

[Octopuss]

I didn't call you anything, get that straight. I didn't even mention any name except for Arthmoor's.

You don't hate MO, you don't even have any feelings about it, and yet you start your post with lenghty paragraph about how broken and wrong MO it is and continue to do so through the entire post only to conclude this IS a troll thread. Bravo.

You also completely ignore the fact most of the problems are user errors and user errors only. That does NOT make MO broken, malfunctioning or otherwise wrong.

 

Oh and can you give me the link to the bug report in MO's tracker? I'd be interested to read it. Maybe it's really there and was just forgotten. As far as I know, Tannin fixes most bugs he can reproduce.

 

edit: typos.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Octopuss

[Audley]

 

This is a *troll* thread (you jumped on other people in the first 2 sentences without reason), better to close and delete it asap.

There is a big difference between a troll post and a rant post. Octopuss states in the title: "(semi-rant)". Because you feel strongly one way or the other about something does not mean this post should be "deleted asap." I have had my problems with MO lately; I had to switch back to 1.2.18 due to the amount of issues I was encountering in 1.3.x. I understand Octopuss' frustration with the situation, however. My question to you is why do you want this thread closed ASAP? When you say things like that you only come across as aggressive and it causes people to want to be defensive. 

[Octopuss]

My posts rarely come up as pleasant to read. I often post controversial sh*t and I often don't have the friendliest attitude. BUT that does not automatically make anything I write false and wrong.

 

You guys over at AFK mods keep bashing MO at every f**king occasion and seemingly do so with borderline pleasure.

You keep repeating the same stupid mantra over and over, and completely ignore the fact most of the problems people bug you with are usually cases of PEBKAC. Yes it can get annoying I guess, but you are free to write an universal reply to point such people to these forums.

Bottom line is, just because you are great modders who did extremely useful and important things for the community doesn't mean you're a norm for anything. Remember that.

 

I clearly remember the crap I was told when I started this same discussion over at AFK mods (that was before I got banned for posting something utterly retarded that didn't even have anything to do with anything there - yes I do idiotic stuff from time to time). You just can't let go. Noone is constantly bashing you, so maybe get out of the closet and accept that there are other "solutions" you might not personally like, but which are perfectly fine. Just because something does something differently doesn't mean it's wrong.

 

P.S. This is still not a trolling post, but I am getting somewhat pissed, which means I need to take a break before posting anything else, because I do not want to look like a d*ck.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Octopuss

[Octopuss]

 

Wondered how long it would be before their resident hit squad member picked up on us having a frank discussion: https://forum.step-pr...hate-semi-rant/

 

I do get that a lot of what blows back from MO is the result of user error. That said, when you hand someone an automatic weapon and fail to instruct them in its proper use, you shouldn't be surprised when they fill your home and car full of holes. There are a lot of features in MO that simply shouldn't exist, not the least of which is the BSA management system that allows for subverting the way Skyrim is supposed to load files.

 

No, I'm not going to point people toward the marketing arm of MO either. I'm going to do what I feel is the right thing and advise them to use Wrye Bash or NMM instead. I don't honestly care if they can't respect that decision either. I don't think it's fair to expect mod authors to continue taking on the support burden that MO is causing.

 

Honestly, I think they just despise anyone who has the courage to stand up and speak the truth

 

I take everything back (unfortunately including the respect I had for Arthmoor). This discussion is friggin' pointless and was over before I even started it. But he is a true crusader.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Octopuss

[Spock]

I have been using BAIN fairly shortly after it's release. Wrye's tools are one of the great TES tools! Personally, I had my share problems with BAIN though, it always got wonky when hitting a lot of files and doing lots of installs/uninstalls. It was showing incomplete installs, missing files etc in the installer even though I didn't touch the data folder with another tool. Even reinstalling everything didn't solve it.

 

If you are doing a lot of testing with different mod setups, the MO system really is more convenient imho. As to how "bug free" it is (as far as software can be bug free) I cannot really tell for sure, until now it worked better for me.

 

Arthmoor is known for at times voicing oppinions in ways other people perceive as offensive. He does have a great deal of knowledge and did a great lot for the modding world of TES games. But that doesn't mean he is always right.

I just hope people can show personal strength, stop the attacks and start exchanging knowledge in a constructive way. The MO system is great, maybe it needs more work (I can't tell), so why not try to help make it work reliably for everyone?

Edited April 16, 2015 by Spock

[Nozzer66]

To be honest, I really don't care what others think. I use MO and it's working fine for me. Have yet to have a single issue, nor has it ever crashed. Until such time as it lets me down, I'll continue to use it.

 

When I was using NMM I had far more issues with crashes and corruption, so I switched. Simple. 

 

If and when MO ever causes me an issue we'll have a look at the new NMM maybe. No real issue as far as I'm concerned. People can think what they want. If we always all agreed on things it would be a dull world.

[zilav]

Oh and can you give me the link to the bug report in MO's tracker? I'd be interested to read it. Maybe it's really there and was just forgotten. As far as I know, Tannin fixes most bugs he can reproduce.

https://forum.step-project.com/topic/3481-mo-for-oblivion-tes4lodgen-memory-use-issues/

https://issue.tannin.eu/tbg/modorganizer/issues/1037

 

Maybe there were something else, I don't know. As I said, I don't use MO and issues were opened by users I sent there. Or maybe they didn't open anything, can't say for others. What I know for sure is that a lot of issues reported to TES5Edit/TES5LODGen (and some in DynDOLOD thread here) was caused by MO, you can check respective threads on nexus (comments section).

No need to get agressive if you want a constructive discussion. You asked "WHY", I answered.

 

Again I'm not against MO, I respect the work of anyone who spent their personal time improving the game(s) I like, making mods and writing tools for them. It is just MO's wide acceptance that caused a lot of troubles to modders and developers in the last year or two, and this is undeniable fact I experienced myself as a developer. Part of them are "PEBKAC" as you say, another part are caused by genuine MO bugs. Bugs are inevitable in any application being actively developed, that's the nature of programming.

 

I also admit that MO made modding much easier for a lot of users who actually can read and follow provided instructions like you for example. And they like it and praise it.

AFKMods just happened to be the place mostly for mod makers and developers, and their opinion might be different from the "common" one on the user oriented sites like STEP. They are free to say what they want. This whole issue of discussing what happens on some another site in the internet reminds me of this

 

 

That's why I expressed my opinion to close this discussion. It will lead nowhere.

[DoubleYou]

The only problem I have with what I am reading is that of you being part of our nonexistent "hit squad."

[hellanios]

It's irritating to see people who don't respect the work and time Tannin has put into this project while having no financial gains from it. Sure there'll be bugs here and there but they will be solved. Skyrim has been out for almost 3,5 years and some people are still creating mods,fixes and tools since day one. Patience is a virtue that many people haven't developed yet.

[Octopuss]

The only problem I have with what I am reading is that of you being part of our nonexistent "hit squad."

I'm not even a hit squad by myself... I'm not even a popular user around here, so... wtf.

[kryptopyr]

As a mod maker and developer, I can say that I've never experienced any problems or user reported issues I could directly relate to MO other than the occasional question about conflicts reported by MO (and I get a lot more of those questions from users of NMM).

 

I held off switching to MO for a long time because I was worried about how it would interact with the CK, TES5Edit and my other modding tools.  I'm incredibly glad that I made the switch and have never had any cause to regret it.  As a mod maker, I've found MO to be a great tool that saves me time and actually simplifies my workflow.  It's never crashed on me or caused me any other problems. 

 

My experience with MO as both a mod maker and a mod user has been extremely positive.

[Aiyen]

Every single tool cause issues to the users.... They will also cause issues to each other since they are programs that where never written with the intent of working with other tools. This does not make any single tool bad or an issue. 

 

Part of the reason STEP decided on MO and to advocate it was the profile system that no other mod manager had at the time! It was simply too good to not use.

I personally also found the loose file approach a god send, because frankly I hate BSA´s, I do not want all my modded game assets hidden away in a silly archive format that I would then have to extract and re-compress every single time I have to do anything. But there is the option for using them the same way that all the other mod maangers do so there is not really much more to that debate...It is not MO´s fault that a user decides to use an advanced feature without understanding it. 

If that was the case it would also be tes5edits fault that a user ignores the HUGE "ARE YOU SURE!!!!" message it come with before making a change. 

 

Another point that was made was the user friendliness of MO.. assuming the user just want to play the game. The user cannot mess up their data dir, having to reinstall the entire game which for quite a few people would mean a day or more of downloading the game from steam again. 

Also points where made to the UI of MO being far more intutitive then that of WB... I know veterans of the modding community will disagree, but I am also of the opinion that MO is just sleeker and present the information in a better way. However the UI is ofc. a minor thing, the main point was the whole "you cannot mess up your data dir". 

 

There where other points, but overall those two where the main ones. Like krypt I have not had any issues (That was not caused by myself) either and when I create mods I also prefer MO, since the whole convenient extraction of assets is so powerful. Also the ability to have multiple profiles is really essential when I have to provide support for multiple different ENB setups... If I was just using WB I would never been able to expand beyond a single mod setup, which would be a shame. 

 

Edit: as a final note.. I also would like to know what this hit squad is?