v2.2.8 Development

[EssArrBee]

What type of things do you need z? I'm in the middle of updating the ENB Guide, but I can do that after since Tech is gone and that only leaves Will and you to get the next release out.

 

Also, are we going to officially start asking mod authors if we can include their mods in our Patch/Compilation (whatever we call it)? I can start PMing authors for permission to use mods can be merged, but I don't actually have a nexus account, I just use my brother's account.

[z929669]

What type of things do you need z? I'm in the middle of updating the ENB Guide, but I can do that after since Tech is gone and that only leaves Will and you to get the next release out.

 

Also, are we going to officially start asking mod authors if we can include their mods in our Patch/Compilation (whatever we call it)? I can start PMing authors for permission to use mods can be merged, but I don't actually have a nexus account, I just use my brother's account.

That would be great (PMing mod authors that we truly need to notify based on their mod-use instructions). Also, if you want to prepare the patch for the 2.2.8 STEP:Cor and Extended mod list, given the changes we are aware of for 2.2.8 (including the recent changes to 2.2.7), that would also be great.

 

I mostly need Nvidia people to verify the Nvidia-setup blurb on the 2.2.8 Guide and the Nvidia Inspector Guide itself. The AMD guide needs a bit of an update (which I am handling), and the Nvidia Inspector guide needs to be validated by an 'expert' user and stripped down to the bare STEP/Skyrim-relevant essentials, keeping in mind that the application developer has created a definitive guide already (see links in STEP:2.2.8). We also need an Nvidia Control Center pictorial setup guide like we have for AMD.

 

A key change to 2.2.8 is streamlining the guide to simplify a rock-solid and performance-friendly setup, and these graphics-related guides are not suitable for linking to at the moment, so that guide section is way too long at the moment.

[EssArrBee]

Nvidia Inspector setup:

 

For the AF settings, I don't think there is a higher setting for Skyrim than 16x, is there? You wouldn't want to raise the LOD Bias number, instead just lower AF. Probably a better performance increase and if you can't run 16x AF then you couldn't tell the difference between 16x and 8x on your system anyways.

 

The author's guide to Inspector is not that in depth after looking it over. The pictures are from drivers v260, were on v331 at the moment. Does not mention every setting or what it does. I will go through the Inspector guide, but instead of scraping it all, I'll just move a lot of it to an Advanced tab and leave the pertinent info since wasting all that would be a shame.

 

Will do the Nvidia Control Panel pics if I can get my desktop up and running, kinda doing a rebuild at the moment and my laptop only has a stripped down version since Intel Media Control Panel handles a lot of the shared stuff. The Inspector does all the same things for GPU settings AFAIK. Didn't think you'd actually ask me to do something I couldn't do. :p

 

Also I'll start asking for permissions in when I look over the mod list for 2.2.8 in TES5Edit and determine what we can merge.

[z929669]

Many thanks SRB, All of that would be a great help. Also, please read over the new Guide and any comments you find from me and vet them as you can if you are willing/able. I have some theories on AA, and I am not sure if they hold true for Nvidia.

 

Generally also need to vet the new guide and behavior of links and ease of following the new guide format.

[EssArrBee]

In my testing, I could get SSAA through Override settings with Inspector, but setting it to application controlled would only use the MSAA.

 

MSAA is better quality than something like SMAA injector, but not as good as SSAA. Just coc riverwood from the main menu and walk toward the fence that is around the inn and you will see right away the how big a different there is. SMAA there is texture shimmer that is really noticable, MSAA has a slight shimmer, and SSAA it is non-existent. As for performance I could barely get FPS in the 30s with SSAA, MSAA was much higher in the 50s and same for SMAA. Using the Override settings for 4x4SSAA and 8x MSAA gave me about 10-20 FPS, but wow did it look good just standing still.

 

So with application controlled AA set in Inspector I think the method is still MSAA until Override is used. I couldn't get other AA methods to be controlled by the launcher or INI until I selected Override in Inspector. Also, the Enhance application settings tries to stack AA, but it doesn't work for everyone, didn't for me. I would just get the same performance. The base AA method is MSAA so trying to change that to MSAA in inspector may work, but it is swapping the same method out, even though the Nvidia method may be a newer version. The two settings for Transparency worked on top of any method I tried. The SGSSAA 8x method looked really good and if you can handle it, go with SGSSAA so that things like fences don't have shimmer. That would go on top of the games AA or SMAA injector, but not with ENB since that stuff doesn't work together.

[Spock]

MSAA is better quality than something like SMAA injector, but not as good as SSAA.

 

That totally depends on what image property you refer to by quality. MSAA cannot do transparency AA and costs more performance for the same effect then SMAA. SSAA costs even more performance but can do transparency AA. SMAA like all generally available post processing AA methods slightly "smudges" the image though (Boris' TAA was a little different, there seem to be post processing AA methods using z-buffer that nearly nullify this problem but none that I know of work for Skyrim, using the z-buffer is game specific).

That's why I don't see the point in combining AA methods, especially SSAA and SMAA. You will just pay more performance and still get the "smudging" effect of SMAA.

[z929669]

OK, thanks for verifying that. I still have some questions for clarity though. Following is my rewrite of the relevant settings that you modified based on your findings. I am trying to make the wording as clear as possible in order to understand it myself (and for others, of course):

---

NVIDIA Inspector AA settings:

 

Antialiasing - Mode

Mode should be set to "Application-controlled". Apparently, SkyrimPrefs.ini dictates the level of AA, but the video card drivers can dictate the ''method'' of AA, but this is not so for all video cards (see Antialiasing - Setting in the next note). The default Skyrim-engine-driven AA is Multisampling (MSAA), so "Application-controlled" yields MSAA. If set to "Override", AA will be turned off in Skyrim, regardless of the Skyrim INI setting!

 

Antialiasing - Setting

In general, this should also be set to "Application-controlled / Off" (for better performance), or set to use Sparse Grid Supersampling (SSAA) if the video graphics can override the default Skyrim MSAA and subsequently handle it without a debilitating frame drop. SSAA will ultimately yield superior quality and is recommended if it is able to override Skyrim's native MSAA.

---

 

So, in my own AMD setup, AA MODE has no effect on Skyrim at all. Only AA SETTING affects Skyrim, and only if MODE is set to "Application Controlled". If MODE is set to "Override Application", then AA does not work at all from either source. Is the same true for Nvidia, and if so, what MODE/SETTING/iMultiSample settings yields the best performance/quality result (for AMD, it is MSAA="App Controlled"/SSAA set to "override"/iMultiSample=4)?

 

It sounds like what you are saying is that the same is true for Nvidia cards, but not all of the time (how do you know if you did not test more than one card?); however, it is not clear to me when you are referring to AA MODE AA SETTING and what impacts and what does not.

 

I'd like to make the wording above explicit.

 

TIA

[EssArrBee]

I was referring directly to the Nvidia driver AA methods vs the Skyrim default MSAA, and SMAA injector. I know there are lots of other ways that people tweak AA and create new techniques.

 

And of course there is transparency multisampling AA. Multisampling is a type of supersampling where you only supersample parts of an image. Otherwise there wouldn't be a Transparency Multisampling option in the AA section of Nvidia Inspector. There are bugs involved when using it, many transparent textures, but that is just a bug.

 

EDIT: Z ninja'd me.

 

For AA - Setting:

Override works with Nvidia, but the Enhanced option did not work for me, but I do think the enhanced option works for some people. I could not get any method to work with the Application Controlled method was chosen except for the Skyrim default MSAA.

 

For AA - Mode:

I could not get Nvidia Inspector to change the method if setting was application controlled or enhanced (enhanced is for stacking). I could get the method to change when set to Override and of course the SSAA 4x4 + MSAA x8 was the best, but performance is unbearable unless standing still. I would suggest the SGSSAA like you said. Some people do get enhanced to work, but I'd like to here a confirmation.

 

Transparency options:

The SSAA worked the best and got rid of shimmering completely with x8 sparse grid. I wouldn't recommend these and I will add something to the Inspector guide about it.

[z929669]

OK, so leaving out transparency sampling methods:

 

What Nvidia Inspector MODE/SETTING/iMultiSample settings yields the best performance/quality result (for AMD, it is MSAA="App Controlled"/SSAA set to "override"/iMultiSample=4)?

 

I want to recommend two settings for best performance/quality tradeoff (one for better performance and one for better quality).

 

Performance is setting App-controlled for all AA, but want to nail down quality and the exact SSAA method to use under SETTING:

 

Antialiasing - Mode = Appllication-controlled

Antialiasing - Setting = ?

iMultiSample = 4

[EssArrBee]

I'd go with x2 I guess. x4 is really performance heavy with SS.

 

Here's a breakdown of the available stuff for my laptop, probably more options for desktops, but I don't have access ATM:

[z929669]

Actually, this is not about Transparency AA ... rather I am talking about AA Mode and AA setting (and not AF at all). AA mode is "app-controlled" but AA Setting should be some form of SSAA. Just want to confirm this:

 

in my own AMD setup' date=' AA MODE has no effect on Skyrim at all. Only AA SETTING affects Skyrim, and only if MODE is set to "Application Controlled". If MODE is set to "Override Application", then AA does not work at all from either source. [/quote']

[EssArrBee]

No no, that is just how the screenshot looked. The drop down is actually from the AA - Setting.

 

AA - mode has three options: Application controlled (performance for guide), Enhance application setting (ignore), and Override application settings (quality for guide).

 

For AA - Setting: Probably go with ssaa x2 or x4 if they can handle it.

[z929669]

OK, now I see what you mean :P

 

Still, there is no simple 2x or 4x SSAA setting. there are lots of variants, including 'combined'. Just want someone to tell me what the best quality/performance tradeoff is. No hurry, just want to add the correct verbatim choice to the guide.

[EssArrBee]

2x2, 3x3, or 4x4 Supersampling (D3D) are the ones I was talking about. I'd say 2x2 or 4x4 for the good systems, depending how high quality the recommendation is. The combined methods straight up murdered my performance, but damn if they weren't pretty.

[z929669]

OK, got it!