TESTING ERM - Enhanced Rocks and Mountains (by SparrowPrince)

[ButchDiavolo]

5 hours ago, Mercury71 said:

Just finished reinstalling STEP (with MM ofc) and remembered this thread. Has anyone looked into this mod since?

Again, not a typical STEP setup, but I have been using this since it came out (see my previous post about parallax combinations).

I decided to do away with MM and use ERM + ERM textures, 8K 4K Nordic Mountains and The Omnibus Terrain AIO, with ERM overwriting everything, which looks absolutely stunning. I did try the rough option, but the regular version of ERM has my personal preference.

I wish I was any good at taking pics of things in game. I apparently have the "artistic eye of a cave fish" and pics never turn out resembling what it looks like in game.

Hope this helps at least a bit.

[z929669]

10 hours ago, Mercury71 said:

Just finished reinstalling STEP (with MM ofc) and remembered this thread. Has anyone looked into this mod since?

I have not tested ERM since the rough option was made available

[S-Matrix]

It seems like this mod isn't actively being discussed at the moment, and I'm not exactly a "forum regular", so take my opinion with a healthy portion of salt. That being said, drawing from my own experiences and (numerous) claims from others which echo my own... this mod probably needs a good deal of work before it's ready for inclusion in an official guide. If you walk far enough along the length almost any prominent mountain ridge with the ERM Parallax meshes installed, you will pretty reliably find at least one instance (or usually, multiple) of stretched/warped mountain visuals. I will be the first to admit I'm not super experienced with these kinds of mods and their mutual interactions, so I started out by ensuring it wasn't a problem with the textures being used - the fact that I had been using the ones provided in the optional files section of ERM's mod page, with those files winning any and all conflicts with my load order, should have clued me in to the fact that the problem was local to the mod itself. Even after coming to that realization I ended up taking some pretty obscene and time-consuming measures to try and resolve the problems (which may sound odd considering these are pretty much just loose meshes, and so overwriting everything should be a fairly straightforward solution), and see if it was by any chance user error, to no avail. In my own encounters with the problematic visuals, they seem to crop up with the highest frequency along mountain ridge "saddle points", ie places where the stone surfaces inflect.

It's left me - an uninformed amateur in the texture/mesh/landscape visuals modding space - a bit lost with respect to choosing a mountain mod at this point. Majestic Mountains doesn't really offer great terrain blending on its own (maybe the Terrain Parallax Blending Fix could help with this though, haven't really explored that yet), which is why I sought a solution in ERM. Then, after trying and failing to grapple with the issues detailed above, I moved to Majestic Mountains Complex Material. However, MMCM necessitates the simultaneous use of either Majestic Landscapes. or the corresponding version of Atlatean Landscapes (the "Majestic" variant) in order to achieve comparable blending; I don't really like the aesthetic of the former, and the latter still has very jarring blending issues in a lot of places. As a last resort, I tried out the base version of Atlantean, which comes with its own mountain meshes and textures, specifically geared towards terrain blending with the help of Terrain Parallax Blending Fix, and that's the closest I've come to an "unproblematic" solution... unfortunately, I could not for the life of me get mountain LODs to look anything close to my preference while using it.

So, I have come to stand before the almighty Lords of STEP, hat in hand, seeking your profane knowledge: this likely isn't the right place to ask (if I need to move this to a separate thread, lmk, and I'll do so) what mountain setup do you guys use/suggest?

Edited November 21, 2023 by S-Matrix

[z929669]

7 hours ago, S-Matrix said:

It seems like this mod isn't actively being discussed at the moment, and I'm not exactly a "forum regular", so take my opinion with a healthy portion of salt. That being said, drawing from my own experiences and (numerous) claims from others which echo my own... this mod probably needs a good deal of work before it's ready for inclusion in an official guide. If you walk far enough along the length almost any prominent mountain ridge with the ERM Parallax meshes installed, you will pretty reliably find at least one instance (or usually, multiple) of stretched/warped mountain visuals. I will be the first to admit I'm not super experienced with these kinds of mods and their mutual interactions, so I started out by ensuring it wasn't a problem with the textures being used - the fact that I had been using the ones provided in the optional files section of ERM's mod page, with those files winning any and all conflicts with my load order, should have clued me in to the fact that the problem was local to the mod itself. Even after coming to that realization I ended up taking some pretty obscene and time-consuming measures to try and resolve the problems (which may sound odd considering these are pretty much just loose meshes, and so overwriting everything should be a fairly straightforward solution), and see if it was by any chance user error, to no avail. In my own encounters with the problematic visuals, they seem to crop up with the highest frequency along mountain ridge "saddle points", ie places where the stone surfaces inflect.

It's left me - an uninformed amateur in the texture/mesh/landscape visuals modding space - a bit lost with respect to choosing a mountain mod at this point. Majestic Mountains doesn't really offer great terrain blending on its own (maybe the Terrain Parallax Blending Fix could help with this though, haven't really explored that yet), which is why I sought a solution in ERM. Then, after trying and failing to grapple with the issues detailed above, I moved to Majestic Mountains Complex Material. However, MMCM necessitates the simultaneous use of either Majestic Landscapes. or the corresponding version of Atlatean Landscapes (the "Majestic" variant) in order to achieve comparable blending; I don't really like the aesthetic of the former, and the latter still has very jarring blending issues in a lot of places. As a last resort, I tried out the base version of Atlantean, which comes with its own mountain meshes and textures, specifically geared towards terrain blending with the help of Terrain Parallax Blending Fix, and that's the closest I've come to an "unproblematic" solution... unfortunately, I could not for the life of me get mountain LODs to look anything close to my preference while using it.

So, I have come to stand before the almighty Lords of STEP, hat in hand, seeking your profane knowledge: this likely isn't the right place to ask (if I need to move this to a separate thread, lmk, and I'll do so) what mountain setup do you guys use/suggest?

This mod wasn't originally designed with parallax in mind, and parallax exacerbates the texture-stretching effect by design. I don't use parallax, due to its unrealistic look (IMO) for this reason. Any texture stretching is due to the UV layout on the mesh, which will happen with any texture with more/less apparent impact. I'm fairly certain that all mountains in this game have some degree of stretching here and there.

Can you capture some screen shots showing the issue with More Informative Console? Maybe it will be helpful for @CaptainKumquat to address if he so chooses. I wouldn't expect him to comment on this, but he may find the info useful.

[S-Matrix]

2 minutes ago, z929669 said:

This mod wasn't originally designed with parallax in mind, and parallax exacerbates the texture-stretching effect by design. I don't use parallax, due to its unrealistic look (IMO) for this reason. Any texture stretching is due to the UV layout on the mesh, which will happen with any texture with more/less apparent impact. I'm fairly certain that all mountains in this game have some degree of stretching here and there.

Can you capture some screen shots showing the issue with More Informative Console? Maybe it will be helpful for @CaptainKumquat to address if he so chooses. I wouldn't expect him to comment on this, but he may find the info useful.

That makes sense - creating the illusion of depth for uneven surfaces, subject to illumination by different and overlapping light sources with differing angles of incidence does seem like it could very plausibly lead to wonky visuals, especially with respect to shadowing. To be more explicit, I think the issue is related to parallax implementation, rather than parallax function - the texture stretching looks pretty otherworldly, for lack of a better term, not just mildly jarring. I can and will grab screenshots later (I actually took down a short record of the places with the highest densities of warping/stretching), but until I can, I guess a decent comparison would be like... seeing a part of the mountain if viewed through some source of gravitational lensing?

As an aside: would you happen to have any recommendations for nice non-parallax mountain mesh/texture combos? It's of course super subjective, but If I end up exhausting available parallax options, and proving less than equal to the task of fixing these issues, I'm super interested in trying out versions of maybe MM or ERM without the feature.

[ButchDiavolo]

Some "wisdom" from my experience modding Skyrim/STEP with ENB Parallax:

I have been using the new ENB version of parallax (and later additions to ENB) since mods have been coming out for it. Adding ENB parallax to pure STEP install is pretty much impossible. There are only a few mods on the list that even have a version with parallax meshes and textures. Because of that lack of mods for it, you WILL have visual glitches. Not "might get", but a very firm WILL. ERM is only a minor part of it. The main issue with ERM is that, as far as I can tell, it doesn't include all meshes/ textures that are used by mountains. And this is pretty much the case with most mods that use ENB Parallax. Auto Parallax does a decent job of "forcing" parallax on meshes that doesn't have it, but if you don't have appropriate textures for it, it will still look weird. Like for example "melting landscapes" because of unadjusted normal maps, and weird shimmering effects when your view changes (which is probably what S-Matrix experienced).

It also doesn't really help the ENB parallax case that ENB for SE/AE is updated without version changes, while adding key new features, so it is easy to have  previous version that doesn't have the proper mechanics. It is still version 0.494 (last update November 3rd) and has been for months. So always check if there is a new updated and adjust the enbseries.ini.

Another "pitfall" is mods that have "parallax" in the mod description, but are in fact the "old version" of parallax. These will also cause graphic anomalies, because they implement parallax differently. So it is very important to double check which kind of parallax they are to be used for.

Thankfully, more and more ENB parallax mods are slowly coming out now. But using them means you will have to step (see what I did there?) boundaries of a pure STEP installation. I call my installation a "STEP +" installation. This means that the curators most likely will not be able to help in case of problems, since it is not a core step install. You can always ask of course.

I will use my install as an example. To get ENB parallax mostly covered, I have had to install and extra 79 (?!) mods just to get the ENB parallax effect. And I still run into areas where it doesn't work. This mean Skyrim doesn't look anything like a normal STEP install, which is inevitable. You need to first get a good base with mods like Pfuscher's Skyrim 202x and Skurkbro's SRP series. These together will cover a lot of the base game. Then you will need to pick a look/ style: Pfuscher's or Skurkbro's "vision" (load order). Then you will have to build on top of this. Ending up with probably 79 extra mods, like I have.

Final word on ENB parallax (for now): for ME it is worth it. I really does make the game spectacular. But to get to that point, it is a A LOT of work, weeks or even months. You will get sick of having to run xLODGEN, TexGen and DynDOLOD after left pane load order changes in MO2. I have the time for all this, because sadly I am unable to work. So it gives me something to do. For the average user, I think ENB Parallax will have to mature more to be a viable option.

Having said all this, back to the actual conversation: for me ERM is the best mountain/ rock mod out there with parallax, with minimal conflicts. But the parallax version on it's own is not a good option.

Edited November 21, 2023 by ButchDiavolo
bad typos

[S-Matrix]

On 11/21/2023 at 7:58 AM, z929669 said:

This mod wasn't originally designed with parallax in mind, and parallax exacerbates the texture-stretching effect by design. I don't use parallax, due to its unrealistic look (IMO) for this reason. Any texture stretching is due to the UV layout on the mesh, which will happen with any texture with more/less apparent impact. I'm fairly certain that all mountains in this game have some degree of stretching here and there.

Can you capture some screen shots showing the issue with More Informative Console? Maybe it will be helpful for @CaptainKumquat to address if he so chooses. I wouldn't expect him to comment on this, but he may find the info useful.

Here's one video demonstrating the issue, btw, in case the author does take notice - along with shots of the More Informative Console window pertaining to the problem model.

P.S. I have no idea if the streamable link I posted is going to expire in the near future, I'm not really familiar with using that site. I have the video saved on my PC, so if it needs to be reuploaded at any point, lmk.


 

Edited November 25, 2023 by S-Matrix

[ButchDiavolo]

3 hours ago, S-Matrix said:

Here's one video demonstrating the issue, btw, in case the author does take notice - along with shots of the More Informative Console window pertaining to the problem model.
 

Yes that is the "weird shimmering effect" I mentioned. Your screen shots also indicates what is causing it though: COTN - Falkreath is overwriting ERM.

If you want to start using ENB Parallax, you might want to create a new section of mods and call it something like Parallax. Install the original mods in the normal STEP section (i.e. Models & Textures), and the Parallax enabled versions in this new "Parallax" section. Put this new section just before the "Post-Procession" section, to make sure that the parallax versions will always overwrite what needs to be overwritten, while still getting the benefits of the Post-Processing additions.

tl;dr: parallax enabled mods should ALWAYS overwrite all other models and textures, so install them as low as possible in the right MO2 column.

Edited November 25, 2023 by ButchDiavolo

[S-Matrix]

On 11/25/2023 at 10:05 AM, ButchDiavolo said:

Yes that is the "weird shimmering effect" I mentioned. Your screen shots also indicates what is causing it though: COTN - Falkreath is overwriting ERM.

If you want to start using ENB Parallax, you might want to create a new section of mods and call it something like Parallax. Install the original mods in the normal STEP section (i.e. Models & Textures), and the Parallax enabled versions in this new "Parallax" section. Put this new section just before the "Post-Procession" section, to make sure that the parallax versions will always overwrite what needs to be overwritten, while still getting the benefits of the Post-Processing additions.

tl;dr: parallax enabled mods should ALWAYS overwrite all other models and textures, so install them as low as possible in the right MO2 column.

I wish it were that clear-cut, but unfortunately, the reason "COTN - Falkreath" appears to be the last overwriting mod is because ERM has no ESP file. More Informative Console only detects plugin priority, not accounting for loose meshes or textures. Your suggestion is a good one, nonetheless.

[ButchDiavolo]

4 hours ago, S-Matrix said:

I wish it were that clear-cut, but unfortunately, the reason "COTN - Falkreath" appears to be the last overwriting mod is because ERM has no ESP file. More Informative Console only detects plugin priority, not accounting for loose meshes or textures. Your suggestion is a good one, nonetheless.

I think it is that clear cut though. if you place COTN above ERM in the left column, ERM will overwrite, plugin or not. I think (not sure though) that more informative console names the last changed reference "unknown" in that case. I am getting a lot of "unknown" reference in my console, which I attribute to that. But, again, I am not sure if that is the case.

[S-Matrix]

2 hours ago, ButchDiavolo said:

I think it is that clear cut though. if you place COTN above ERM in the left column, ERM will overwrite, plugin or not. I think (not sure though) that more informative console names the last changed reference "unknown" in that case. I am getting a lot of "unknown" reference in my console, which I attribute to that. But, again, I am not sure if that is the case.

I'm not sure if that's the case either, but I do know that ERM has, for the longest time, pretty much sat in the lowest part of the left pane of MO2 (followed only by Icy Mesh Remaster, along with DynDOLOD Add-ons and outputs). I also found that, in returning to the same mountain ridge while using the NON-parallax ERM meshes and the same ERM texture pack I'd already been using, the problem was no longer present. This, along with the fact that the warping appears all over Skyrim (not just outside of Falkreath) is pretty much enough to convince me it's a parallax issue, not an issue with COTN - Falkreath specifically.

Edited November 28, 2023 by S-Matrix

[Mousetick]

2 hours ago, ButchDiavolo said:

I am getting a lot of "unknown" reference in my console, which I attribute to that. But, again, I am not sure if that is the case.

Defined in / Last changed by "Unknown" indicates the entity was not statically defined or overridden by a plugin, but was dynamically created or modified at runtime, by a Papyrus script, or by the engine itself. Or possibly by a SKSE plugin (such as Base Object Swapper) but I'm not sure about that.

MIC has some bugs where it erroneously reports "Unknown" in some cases while it should not, but according to the MIC MA it only affects NPCs.

You can always tell an entity was created at runtime because the load order index of its Form ID is FF. Hence there can only be up to 253 "fat" plugins in the load order: index 00 is Skyrim.esm, index FE is reserved for "light" plugins, and index FF is reserved for the engine. 256 max theoretical limit - 3 always reserved = 253 available.

In any case, the engine is completely oblivious to overwritten DDS texture files or NIF mesh files, so changing the overwrite order of those files cannot be detected by the console and reported as "Unknown". If you're seeing "Unknown", it's caused by something else.

[ButchDiavolo]

10 hours ago, Mousetick said:

Defined in / Last changed by "Unknown" indicates the entity was not statically defined or overridden by a plugin, but was dynamically created or modified at runtime, by a Papyrus script, or by the engine itself. Or possibly by a SKSE plugin (such as Base Object Swapper) but I'm not sure about that.

MIC has some bugs where it erroneously reports "Unknown" in some cases while it should not, but according to the MIC MA it only affects NPCs.

You can always tell an entity was created at runtime because the load order index of its Form ID is FF. Hence there can only be up to 253 "fat" plugins in the load order: index 00 is Skyrim.esm, index FE is reserved for "light" plugins, and index FF is reserved for the engine. 256 max theoretical limit - 3 always reserved = 253 available.

In any case, the engine is completely oblivious to overwritten DDS texture files or NIF mesh files, so changing the overwrite order of those files cannot be detected by the console and reported as "Unknown". If you're seeing "Unknown", it's caused by something else.

Thanks for that! I always assumed that it was caused by "mesh only" mods. And come to think of it now, I do get a lot more "unknowns" since I started using BOS, so that would make sense. That is my "theory" taken care of then.

@S-Matrix I checked the specific mesh in your screenshots in my loadorder to see if I could find an issues. In my game MountainRidge01 comes from ERM. But it is also present in Skyrim Landscape and Water fixes and SMIM, both not parallax. Have you checked in MO2, (left column, data tab, typing in the mesh name) which mods wins in your loadorder? I use that a lot to fix/ find issues.

[z929669]

3 minutes ago, ButchDiavolo said:

Thanks for that! I always assumed that it was caused by "mesh only" mods. And come to think of it now, I do get a lot more "unknowns" since I started using BOS, so that would make sense. That is my "theory" taken care of then.

@S-Matrix I checked the specific mesh in your screenshots in my loadorder to see if I could find an issues. In my game MountainRidge01 comes from ERM. But it is also present in Skyrim Landscape and Water fixes and SMIM, both not parallax. Have you checked in MO2, (left column, data tab, typing in the mesh name) which mods wins in your loadorder? I use that a lot to fix/ find issues.

Just to clarify, the simplest way to view asset conflicts in MO is to double click the mod name in the left pane to open the Information dialog, Go to the Conflicts tab and use those filters. You can also go to the Data tab in the MO right pane and use the filter at the bottom of that to type/paste the file name to see what mod provides it.

[CaptainKumquat]

Hello, author here with a weird random name, lol. I apologise that I'm forgetting to check when I'm tagged in a post.

I don't personally like parallax on anything other than flat-ish vertical geometry and floors/terrain in this game. Parallax does have a number of implementations though, and the more expensive ones, like cone stepping, are better than the older parallax methods authors' have implemented into Skyrim - offset and occlusion mapping. Still, all of these methods can't really do much with texture edges/seams on a model because parallax is still only faking 3D. Reducing the effect strength across the board is going to be the only fix I can think of, other than not using it on certain meshes.

Anyway, why am I offering it then? Well, because I will get spammed with requests. Parallax = hotness. Really though, it's not up to me to push my tastes on others. I could mention my tastes and suggest the base option, but then you will get whispers that the parallax version is "broken" and to use something else. This would be unfair when there are many external variables at play - texture packs, ENB settings, user error ect.

You can also visually check out the many implementations of parallax on this old program here: http://www.brunoevangelista.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/detailed_surfaces.zip