TechAngel85 Posted April 16, 2015 Posted April 16, 2015 https://forum.step-project.com/topic/3481-mo-for-oblivion-tes4lodgen-memory-use-issues/https://issue.tannin.eu/tbg/modorganizer/issues/1037 Maybe there were something else, I don't know. As I said, I don't use MO and issues were opened by users I sent there. Or maybe they didn't open anything, can't say for others. What I know for sure is that a lot of issues reported to TES5Edit/TES5LODGen (and some in DynDOLOD thread here) was caused by MO, you can check respective threads on nexus (comments section).No need to get agressive if you want a constructive discussion. You asked "WHY", I answered. Again I'm not against MO, I respect the work of anyone who spent their personal time improving the game(s) I like, making mods and writing tools for them. It is just MO's wide acceptance that caused a lot of troubles to modders and developers in the last year or two, and this is undeniable fact I experienced myself as a developer. Part of them are "PEBKAC" as you say, another part are caused by genuine MO bugs. Bugs are inevitable in any application being actively developed, that's the nature of programming. I also admit that MO made modding much easier for a lot of users who actually can read and follow provided instructions like you for example. And they like it and praise it.AFKMods just happened to be the place mostly for mod makers and developers, and their opinion might be different from the "common" one on the user oriented sites like STEP. They are free to say what they want. This whole issue of discussing what happens on some another site in the internet reminds me of this That's why I expressed my opinion to close this discussion. It will lead nowhere.If there are truly issues with your programs and MO, I would highly encourage you to work with Tannin to help resolve them instead of you two just trying to make workarounds for the issues. It would benefit the entire modding community! If any STEP member posts on that thread, I hope that you will be as civil and respectful as Spock was. We have nothing against the UP Team or the AFK Mods site. They are free to their own opinions and it doesn't effect us in any way. I posted in regardless to the first post and thread title to help clarify why STEP uses MO and to a few comments that came up in discussion to that. I don't need any members backing me up on this as it could get out of hand if STEP members that are a little too passionate start ranting away. As for this thread on the STEP Forums, keep it civil! I don't want any warnings handed out because things get out of hand. If you discuss, be mature about it!
Octopuss Posted April 16, 2015 Author Posted April 16, 2015 (edited) Nice reply there Tech. I admire your patience. But also thanks for describing me as the rotten apple (that's exactly how it sounds) of STEP. I didn't expect such thing from you. Edited April 16, 2015 by Octopuss
Neovalen Posted April 16, 2015 Posted April 16, 2015 As a mod maker and developer, I can say that I've never experienced any problems or user reported issues I could directly relate to MO other than the occasional question about conflicts reported by MO (and I get a lot more of those questions from users of NMM). I held off switching to MO for a long time because I was worried about how it would interact with the CK, TES5Edit and my other modding tools. I'm incredibly glad that I made the switch and have never had any cause to regret it. As a mod maker, I've found MO to be a great tool that saves me time and actually simplifies my workflow. It's never crashed on me or caused me any other problems. My experience with MO as both a mod maker and a mod user has been extremely positive.Being a mod maker, guide writer (SR:LE), and general user I completely agree with Kry here. MO is invaluable for testing new mods, creating mods (I have a development profile), and more without having 3 or more game installs. I will admit that some of my mods comment threads were flooded with MO questions but it has calmed down significantly in recent months. In the end, 99% of it was RTFM moments the user figured out shortly after posting. I believe due to the work here on STEP, plus the dedicated work of some youtubers MO is becoming more mainstream and I view this as a good thing. As for other mod management tools, I can't even count how many times I needed to reinstall the game due to nmm or wrye leaving files behind in the data folder, getting corrupted, etc. In the end, ALL tools have their quirks and bugs but at least with MO I don't have to reinstall when something goes wrong. Not to mention it is a lot less wear on my hard drive to not physically copy/move files when I change install order. I do take offense at the hit squad line of inquiry and I'm not even a staff member here, just a long time member. There is no such entity, just individual users as any community. I do hope that in the future exchanges are more civil between this site and AFK mods as i respect both sides. I also hope that the bashing against MO calms down, as I think big red lettering goes a bit far. 1
EssArrBee Posted April 16, 2015 Posted April 16, 2015 I love how all the bugs are from MO and never from any other apps. There's bugs in every mod manager and every app, but right now MO is the most popular, so people want to crap on it. Do you think that Tannin has never had to deal with bugs from other apps being reported to his as issues for MO? Be realistic, he's had to deal with the same crap all devs had to. As for the whole BSA argument, one thing that everyone seems to forget is that BSA management by the game is wrong. Tannin fixed it. You can't order assets of mods with a mix of BSAs and loose files using any other mod manager. You can say things should be left the way the game does it, but then that would go against the very spirit of what modding is about. It started out as hacking a game and became a gigantic monster that it is today. If there really was such big issues with MO and xEdit, then why does ElimisterAU use it? I bet if Wrye was still around he'd be using it too. EDIT: I posted that same XKCD in the mod thread when someone mentioned this thread might be something to watch.
z929669 Posted April 16, 2015 Posted April 16, 2015 I take everything back (unfortunately including the respect I had for Arthmoor). This discussion is friggin' pointless and was over before I even started it. But he is a true crusader.As I posted to Arthmoor at AFK: Posting snippets from other forums out of context not only increases the rancor, but it throws both threads off topic. Let's go to the relevant communities/forums to post within context. The OP is fine but it does invite criticism here and elsewhere (particularly due to the reference to the external forum and snippets from there), so I am not surpized that the old arguments are resurfacing :P
GSDFan Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 The important thing to remember is that Tannin has always said that if you have a problem with MO crashing, any form of error message or mod not behaving improperly it is to be reported on the bug tracker. He has also stated that if a tool doesn't work in MO he considers it a bug and would like it reported on the issue tracker and not to bother the developer of the tool on their forum.
GrantSP Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 This whole thing has a very similar tone to early Apple vs Microsoft discussions where fanboys of either side would espouse the virtues of their preferred OS/software while taking every opportunity to take shots at the opposition. Where is that hatred now? For the most part faded into the past as everybody can now use most software from either camp at will. It is a pretty simple matter to use cross-platform software or even OS specific versions of tools that 20 years ago would be impossible to have. What's different with this discussion? Does MO do some things that are 'not established practice'? Maybe, but who decided what was the 'established practice'? Just because it introduces new factors into how mods can be managed does not make it inherently flawed and those that claim it is, (the VFS or BSA management) are merely trying to reinforce their view of the 'established' way of doing things and not whether those methods are desirable. History is replete with better designs falling to greater numbers of support for the poorer design. DC vs AC. Beta vs VHS. I would hate for MO to fall simply because it was bullied out of existence. I have seen the reminders that "such and such tool will not be given support if the user has MO" and frankly laughed to myself.OK, you don't have MO and can't test it, so why not direct them to those that can give support? Or better yet examine why you don't have that tool. Is it simply an ideological opposition or a functional matter? Isn't cooperation better than confrontation? Take the case of FNIS as used in MO. @fore was flooded with MO users that simply didn't follow good installation practice and were getting errors. He became rightly concerned and started telling users to make their complaints in the MO forum. Because of this a few simple lines of instructions were provided to him, which he placed on the description page of his mod, and the numbers have started to drop.What does this show? Instead of putting up a boundary and saying: "no support for MO users will be given." he took the option to bring it to MO's attention and a solution is now in place. The result, users feel comfortable asking in either forum knowing they can get the same level of support. Is this not the preferred option?! Whether it is xEdit, LOOT, Unofficial Patches, Wrye Bash, FNIS or any other tool/mod, if a measure of cross team support can be established, everybody wins.
TechAngel85 Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 Take the case of FNIS as used in MO. @fore was flooded with MO users that simply didn't follow good installation practice and were getting errors. He became rightly concerned and started telling users to make their complaints in the MO forum. Because of this a few simple lines of instructions were provided to him, which he placed on the description page of his mod, and the numbers have started to drop.What does this show? Instead of putting up a boundary and saying: "no support for MO users will be given." he took the option to bring it to MO's attention and a solution is now in place. The result, users feel comfortable asking in either forum knowing they can get the same level of support. Is this not the preferred option?! Whether it is xEdit, LOOT, Unofficial Patches, Wrye Bash, FNIS or any other tool/mod, if a measure of cross team support can be established, everybody wins.I couldn't agree more! The same thing happened with IcePenguin for A Quality World Map. The author is using a non-standard .CS script for installation instead of a FOMOD. I told the author of the odd way that MO users were presented with this mod installation if they previously had the mod installed and was updating it. From that conversation, IcePenguin added a short and simple instruction to the Nexus mod page for MO users. Cooperation is the best way to go! "Everybody wins."
Azum Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 (edited) This isn't Oblivion and nobody uses Wrye Bash exclusively to manage Skyrim mods. I feel like I just got into the Delorean and went back to the future. Also... to note I've had MO open now for well over a week without actually playing Skyrim, and I'm not seeing any type of corruption or 'randomly unselected mods'. Edited April 17, 2015 by Azum
TechAngel85 Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 I'll had MO open for at least two weeks before without issue. Only time I restart my computer is after driver or Windows updates.
alt3rn1ty Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 This isn't Oblivion and nobody uses Wrye Bash exclusively to manage Skyrim mods.I wouldn't say nobody does ;), I know quite a few, aswell as myself
Aiyen Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 Well if that does not scream "ol skool" in the cool way I do not know what does! :) Even the computers at my job using control software from the 80´s look more hip than that hehe!
alt3rn1ty Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 :) Its win 7 x32 with aero turned off so I can run skyrim on my crap laptop graphics card without wasting 80mb of VRAM on windows niceties. Runs smooth
EssArrBee Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 You're still using that same laptop? That thing was old when Skyrim came out.
alt3rn1ty Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 Yep out of four computers I have bought for my family my personal machine upgrades are the lowest priority, its about time I had a new one but the car will be the next thing. So this ol machine keeps my hobby ticking over, and me off the streets. One day something serious will blow and force a change, but until then its running Skyrim fine. I use the desktop occasionally, but thats no challenge :), I still havent got around to it but one day I also want to get Skyrim running on the Linux OS on this laptop.
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