DROPPED FAR - Forgotten Argonian Roots (by redtox)

[Kattmandu]

On 11/30/2022 at 7:48 PM, z929669 said:

LOL. The 2K file is corrupt.

The 4K file is fine though.

Looking like it might be another 6 years before the 2k archive gets fixed...LOL  I assume there is no real reason to update this mod if I have the previous version installed unless I just want a proper FOMOD installer or 4k files.

[CorneliusC]

1 hour ago, Kattmandu said:

I assume there is no real reason to update this mod if I have the previous version installed unless I just want a proper FOMOD installer or 4k files.

I was just thinking the same thing, there is no changelog or post indicating the textures were reworked or in any way optimized?

[Mousetick]

1 hour ago, CorneliusC said:

I was just thinking the same thing, there is no changelog or post indicating the textures were reworked or in any way optimized?

As indicated in the notes below each file on the download page:

• The textures were 'optimized' by XilaMonstrr. No details are provided, but comparison of old vs. new shows they were recompressed from DXT1 to BC7 and probably cleaned of compression artifacts in the process.
• They were repackaged in a FOMOD installer made by foreverphoenix and originally available separately with manual assembly required (because of restrictive permissions on the original mod).

[CorneliusC]

Thank you for re-reading this, i read through the mod page, but seems not in a very concentrated way...

[Kattmandu]

1 hour ago, Mousetick said:

As indicated in the notes below each file on the download page:

• The textures were 'optimized' by XilaMonstrr. No details are provided, but comparison of old vs. new shows they were recompressed from DXT1 to BC7 and probably cleaned of compression artifacts in the process.
• They were repackaged in a FOMOD installer made by foreverphoenix and originally available separately with manual assembly required (because of restrictive permissions on the original mod).

I guess 4k it is then.

[z929669]

After doing some investigating of all of our body-parts replacers in Character Appearance ModGroup, I grabbed screens of what is related to FAR.

Vanilla [2k]  >>  Step (FAR [4k]+ Tempered Skins)  >>  Step (Tempered Skins [2k] without FAR)

MALE

FEMALE

 

I actually prefer the Tempered Skin without FAR by a long shot (basically vanilla). I just think the original vanilla texture is better all around (head and body). Also, the UNP underwear on females is an improvement over the janky vanilla underwear.

 

---

Now to the caveats ... meshes, texture seams, and normals:

MALE

FAR gives rather noticeable arm seams for males, and the hand textures are just a bit off, IMO:

... and ankle seams are also an issue, but this is partly the fault of Tempered Skins, which is providing the Better Males body mesh and more importantly, feet meshes to correct the vanilla stump feet, so this is worth the tradeoff (I also checked FAR using the vanilla mesh, which made a huge mess of the feet, presumably since the UV map is not compatible with the texture):

---

FEMALE

For females, FAR looks better on the arms:

... but the feet have some obvious seams (likely due in part to this being a UNP body from Tempered skins, which works nicely for all but beast race ankle seams):

---

Here's those same shots with FAR removed (Tempered Skins only):

MALE

FEMALE

... notice in both males and females, the arm seams are much less noticeable and the textures of the hands look decent, but the feet are a bit of a mess.

The male feet have smooth model space normals, so the MA was lazy and used the human feet MSNs in the atlas. This can easily be corrected by re-making that part of the normal using the diffuse.

For females, the issue is with the UV map on the UNP body/feet meshes. THat should also be relatively easy fix (I think .. I have little XP with body meshes)

All said and done, I still prefer argonians with the vanilla textures on the Better Males and UNP meshes from Tempered Skins and vote to drop this mod

I also think this mod and Coverkajiits should be installed after Tempered skins to avoid having to hide files in that mod.

 

 

[DoubleYou]

I would consider that this mod likely looks better from playing distance than up close, mostly due to the increased size of the scales. You're mostly going to see the necks, the male chest, and the arms, which I feel is the main improvement here. I don't think you're going to typically notice the issues with the hands and feet.

[z929669]

44 minutes ago, DoubleYou said:

I would consider that this mod likely looks better from playing distance than up close, mostly due to the increased size of the scales. You're mostly going to see the necks, the male chest, and the arms, which I feel is the main improvement here. I don't think you're going to typically notice the issues with the hands and feet.

I looked at this mod's impact in game fairly extensively, and I feel like we are using this mod (and CoverKhajiits) mostly out of impulse to replace vanilla textures based on the assumption that vanilla textures are 'vanilla' and so less desirable. I don't think that's the case here and that the vanilla argonian textures are superior (well, the Tempered Skins reworked vanilla textures anyway).

The greater the distance seen in game, the less difference you see with vanilla. It's when you get closer to the argonian that you can appreciate the greater detail and shading of the Tempered Skins textures/models. The FAR version is simply vanilla with some added scales, which detracts from the nice skin detail of the original textures (e.g., veins) and the head.

I stand by my view that this mod should be dropped in favor of Tempered Skins version. This version is also 2k and consistent with resolution of other character textures (FAR 2k archive is broken for the new version, so we are limited to 4k probably for years if history of this mod is any indicator).

[TechAngel85]

I'm personally fine dropping this mod. I've already upscaled these vanilla textures for my project, and can confirm that they aren't that bad in terms of quality. Now there are some issues in the vanilla textures. From my notes it looks like the female textures had issues:

Quote

ArgonianFemale

• Created new specular maps for scars
• Specular maps for body parts were not fully greyscale and far too bright compared to males. These were corrected.

I don't remember what was up with the scar specular (probably didn't exist or sucked), but I do remember the female specular maps had basically been inverted on the female textures vs the male textures. You can actual see this in the compare posted that the vanilla female is far shinier vs the male. The male has shine on the scales and the skin is more dull (leathery). It's flipped on the female.

[z929669]

11 hours ago, TechAngel85 said:

I'm personally fine dropping this mod. I've already upscaled these vanilla textures for my project, and can confirm that they aren't that bad in terms of quality. Now there are some issues in the vanilla textures. From my notes it looks like the female textures had issues:

I don't remember what was up with the scar specular (probably didn't exist or sucked), but I do remember the female specular maps had basically been inverted on the female textures vs the male textures. You can actual see this in the compare posted that the vanilla female is far shinier vs the male. The male has shine on the scales and the skin is more dull (leathery). It's flipped on the female.

Regarding #3 of the compare sets I posted previously (my preference):

Tempered Skins for Males has revised 2k diffuse/normals/specular for argonians and khajiits (despite the mod explicitly stating that it covers the non-beast races). So you may want to compare your vanilla-reworked results for those.

Tempered Skins for Females does not cover beast races, so those are pure vanilla in those screens.

I think it would be ideal if we can test what you have created if you have some improved vanilla textures for the beast races, but barring that, I think dropping FAR in favor of TS-vanilla and pure vanilla for males and females, respectively is best for Step (the same applies to khajiits in my compare on that topic).

 

[TechAngel85]

8 hours ago, z929669 said:

I think it would be ideal if we can test what you have created if you have some improved vanilla textures for the beast races, but barring that, I think dropping FAR in favor of TS-vanilla and pure vanilla for males and females, respectively is best for Step (the same applies to khajiits in my compare on that topic).

What I have will not be available for some time. I will likely release a module for all the 'Actor' textures once those are complete. They will be available in 1/2 vanilla, vanilla, and 2x vanilla; actual resolution dependent on the original, but nothing smaller than x512 unless the originals are smaller by default. I was just pointing out the vanilla textures have issues.

Comparing mine to TS:

Mine are clearer and sharer at the same resolution (2K).

[z929669]

45 minutes ago, TechAngel85 said:

What I have will not be available for some time. I will likely release a module for all the 'Actor' textures once those are complete. They will be available in 1/2 vanilla, vanilla, and 2x vanilla; actual resolution dependent on the original, but nothing smaller than x512 unless the originals are smaller by default. I was just pointing out the vanilla textures have issues.

Comparing mine to TS:

Mine are clearer and sharer at the same resolution (2K).

[z929669]

Tagged as dropped as of 2.2.0, so post disagreement as applicable.

[Kattmandu]

Now that this mod has been dropped, the 2k fomod archive has been fixed.  LOL