Step 3.0.0 Maintenance

[z929669]

@Darklocq Let's move the discussion here.

I actually think that it would be more efficient to bring you in as a wiki editor so that you can 'patch' the issues you find in the guide, particularly if you are a technical writer. If @TechAngel85 agrees. Are you comfortable around wiki markup?

I do not mess with Skyrim LE any longer, nor do I plan to. Tech put together the latest LE guide about 6 months ago and mentioned that he wouldn't be maintaining it, I think. Since you seem to be "all in" for finding the issues, it would save you a lot of time if you just made the corrections yourself. We can obviously credit you as a content contributor and possibly even increment the version as a result.

Anyway, please use this thread to continue the discussion.

[z929669]

I suppose the first thing is that mod instructions on the wiki are game-guide-version specific with the base Recommendations being the first-guide version. Mod pages have instructions for creating Recommendations applicable to a different version of the guide. This only applies when the Nexus mod version is also guide-version specific, which is rare, since most mod updates are wanted.

Mods are obviously updated on mod pages, and the guide text is edited on the guide page itself. Guides are propagated to a defined new version with a click and updated on that page. The Step Portal page on the wiki links to game home pages, which in turn link to the instructions for adding/editing mod pages and creating/propagating new/existing guide pages.

[Darklocq]

I'm definitely comfortable with geekier wiki editing.  I'd already broached the idea with another of the admins.  I'm a 15+ year veteran of en.wikipedia (where I'm a TemplateEditor, PageMover, etc.; not an admin - that job is mostly politicized psychodrama at a site that large).

All in: Yeah, the "approximately 2 days" STEP 3.0.0 setup was about a month for me!  I was taking extensive notes, like every single patch available in a FOMOD and on its download page, where typos are, what mods recommended have actually been abandoned and replaced by new versions at different Nexus mod ID numbers (at least three, and I'm responsible for one or another of them), places where the advice in the guide seems inconsistent, mods STEP recommends which were never updated for USLEP (so I went and patched them), etc., etc., etc.  Some of what I've been up to will make it into a user-level guide page instead, and isn't main STEP Guide material - things like integrating Ethereal Elven Overhaul (wrote new patches for that, too).  So, yeah, put my OCD to work here. >;-)  I'm not a primadonna, self-promotional modder; I mostly write patches, with as few restrictions as possible under the Nexus circumstances, and give away most of the donation points or mod rewards or whatever Nexus calls them now.

I'm aware this site uses some particular and complex MediaWiki packages, and promise to pore over their documentation before wading into any code I don't understand.  I think the most complex thing I have in mind would be tracing a transclusion chain of templates and modules to find where ever some particular text "lived" to update it there.

I also wouldn't make any substantive changes (like which mods are recommended, etc.) without vetting it, of course.  I'd already been lurking in some of the STEP LE 2.x vetting threads for a couple of years, actually (like the debate about Skyrim Realistic Overhaul and what to piecemeal replace it with, before it suddenly came back).

Some "résumé" points:

* Latest patching work: Unofficial Skyrim City Patch (USCP) Reawakened

* Directly STEP-relevant: AI Overhaul for USLEP

* Ditto: Waterbreathing Breathless Emerge for USLEP

* I was also the most extensive mod tester for OpenMW, but my user page at their wiki isn't up right now; they're overhauling the entire wiki since a month or two ago. Edit: I found where it was moved to.  Includes my Morrowind and OpenMW companion/follower guide.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Darklocq
Link update

[z929669]

1 hour ago, Darklocq said:

I'm definitely comfortable with geekier wiki editing.  I'd already broached the idea with another of the admins.  I'm a 15+ year veteran of en.wikipedia (where I'm a TemplateEditor, PageMover, etc.; not an admin - that job is mostly politicized psychodrama at a site that large).

All in: Yeah, the "approximately 2 days" STEP 3.0.0 setup was about a month for me!  I was taking extensive notes, like every single patch available in a FOMOD and on its download page, where typos are, what mods recommended have actually been abandoned and replaced by new versions at different Nexus mod ID numbers (at least three, and I'm responsible for one or another of them), places where the advice in the guide seems inconsistent, mods STEP recommends which were never updated for USLEP (so I went and patched them), etc., etc., etc.  Some of what I've been up to will make it into a user-level guide page instead, and isn't main STEP Guide material - things like integrating Ethereal Elven Overhaul (wrote new patches for that, too).  So, yeah, put my OCD to work here. >;-)  I'm not a primadonna, self-promotional modder; I mostly write patches, with as few restrictions as possible under the Nexus circumstances, and give away most of the donation points or mod rewards or whatever Nexus calls them now.

I'm aware this site uses some particular and complex MediaWiki packages, and promise to pore over their documentation before wading into any code I don't understand.  I think the most complex thing I have in mind would be tracing a transclusion chain of templates and modules to find where ever some particular text "lived" to update it there.

I also wouldn't make any substantive changes (like which mods are recommended, etc.) without vetting it, of course.  I'd already been lurking in some of the STEP LE 2.x vetting threads for a couple of years, actually (like the debate about Skyrim Realistic Overhaul and what to piecemeal replace it with, before it suddenly came back).

Some "résumé" points:

* Latest patching work: Unofficial Skyrim City Patch (USCP) Reawakened

* Directly STEP-relevant: AI Overhaul for USLEP

* Ditto: Waterbreathing Breathless Emerge for USLEP

* I was also the most extensive mod tester for OpenMW, but my user page at their wiki isn't up right now; they're overhauling the entire wiki since a month or two ago.

OK, that 'admin' was me, and I just forgot about it. We also have a PM I think with the other staff.

As far as updating the current 3.0.0 guide, that's great. If it's more than updating/correcting some mod notes, then a new version is warranted. If you want to instruct users on creating custom patches, that's also perfectly fine in the 'official' guide page itself (rather than mod recs). Alternatively, you can create them and host them from the wiki or the Nexus via another mod page, which is what we do with the Step patches. If patches are dependent on user choice or mods they can opt to install or not, then it makes sense to instruct them on how to create themselves. Again, fine for the official guide.

Once you are done updating/upgrading the official guide, you can also opt to build out an entirely custom guide of your own (an 'unofficial' guide) using the exact same guide-building infrastructure. Even NSFW mods are allowed if treated in a SFW way on this site. These would get hosted on the game home page for whatever game applies. What's nice is that we have tools in place to propagate guides into new version pages, so that you only need to modify rather than start from scratch.

As far as the wiki infrastructure goes, you shouldn't have need to mess with templates or anything related to Semantic Mediawiki (you may want to read up a bit on that) unless we lack some needed feature. You will just need to understand how SMW queries work ... maybe. Again, those are all pre-constructed in all guides, so it really is a matter of writing more-so than creating new templates/forms/properties. It's always nice to have another person who understands how that all works though in cases where templates need to be improved, better documented or created. The most important thing is that you understand how to use "what links here" and how editing any transcludable page can affect many things unexpectedly (particularly with SMW core pages, which are all protected anyway).

One thing to note: Due to wiki transclusion limitations, we avoid use of any templates on mod pages outside of FOMOD template. There should be an average of < 1 template used on any mod page recommendation (versioned or base). Also, wiki headings on mod pages will be added to the guide ToC, so we never use them in Recs. I will grant you edit perms on mod/guide pages once you are ready to start. Just ask questions if you are uncertain about anything, because mod pages apply to all guides, which is why we have the capacity to create guide-version specific mod Recs.

We will also need to add you to one of our forum staff roles so that you are able to post on the guide DEV topics for coming to a consensus on any changes (adding/dropping mods mostly).

[TechAngel85]

15 hours ago, z929669 said:

I actually think that it would be more efficient to bring you in as a wiki editor so that you can 'patch' the issues you find in the guide, particularly if you are a technical writer. If @TechAngel85 agrees.

I'm fine with this, but Editors don't have permissions for the Guide stuff, unless you changed that. Only staff-level of "Step Staff" (now call Step Admin) and higher have only ever been those with Guide-level editing permissions; not even the Super Mods had these permissions. I think the name we naturally went with for those staff doing the Guide stuff was "Curator" or "Guide Curator". I don't think any of it was set up on the Forums or wiki, though. Just need to create that member group. "Editor" was left over from the CMS. I like curator better than editor.

As for the LE Guide maintenance, I wasn't planning on there being any more versions of it, no. The only maintenance I was going to do was what is being done by Darklocq, it seems, which was "routine maintenance" for instruction updates (for new versions of mods/tools), patch updates, no new mods would be added, old mods only dropped if they were no longer available....those sorts of things.

[z929669]

39 minutes ago, TechAngel85 said:

I'm fine with this, but Editors don't have permissions for the Guide stuff, unless you changed that. Only staff-level of "Step Staff" (now call Step Admin) and higher have only ever been those with Guide-level editing permissions; not even the Super Mods had these permissions. I think the name we naturally went with for those staff doing the Guide stuff was "Curator" or "Guide Curator". I don't think any of it was set up on the Forums or wiki, though. Just need to create that member group. "Editor" was left over from the CMS. I like curator better than editor.

As for the LE Guide maintenance, I wasn't planning on there being any more versions of it, no. The only maintenance I was going to do was what is being done by Darklocq, it seems, which was "routine maintenance" for instruction updates (for new versions of mods/tools), patch updates, no new mods would be added, old mods only dropped if they were no longer available....those sorts of things.

OK, so @Darklocq should not SHOULD version-increment the 3.0.0 guide then (if he wants to change mods or mod versions with significant updates ... otherwise, just minor updates to mod pages and guide text under same version [changelog can be left "as is" in this case]).

Once finished with that, he can still create his own unofficial version for LE if he wants to create something special. i am all for that.

Will post the rest on our admin forums

[TechAngel85]

10 minutes ago, z929669 said:

OK, so @Darklocq should not version-increment the 3.0.0 guide then. Just update instructions on mod pages and perhaps correct any guide text that needs correcting. This also means updating the changelog of course. Once finished with that, he can still create his own unofficial version for LE if he wants to create something special. i am all for that.

Will post the rest on our admin forums

Well, that was my plan for the LE Guide since it didn't make sense to try to stretch our small staff over two of the same games right now. If Darklocq wants to continue with LE development and desires that to be the SkyrimLE Guide, then I'm all for its continued development. The easiest thing to do would be to mirror the SE Guide, as much as possible, and fork from it where required (like the LW/ENB/LOD sections). However, if the desire is to go outside our Mandates, then that would be appropriate for an unofficial guide using our framework. I'm cool either way.

[z929669]

12 minutes ago, TechAngel85 said:

Well, that was my plan for the LE Guide since it didn't make sense to try to stretch our small staff over two of the same games right now. If Darklocq wants to continue with LE development and desires that to be the SkyrimLE Guide, then I'm all for its continued development. The easiest thing to do would be to mirror the SE Guide, as much as possible, and fork from it where required (like the LW/ENB/LOD sections). However, if the desire is to go outside our Mandates, then that would be appropriate for an unofficial guide using our framework. I'm cool either way.

OK, then we are on the same page. Previous post edited to clarify for Darklocq

[z929669]

@Darklocq I created new game-specific wiki roles and changed you to the skyrimle role. You shouldn't notice any difference in your ability to edit pages in that 'game'space, but do let me know if otherwise.

We will have the forum roles defined soon.

[Darklocq]

I'll pore over all this after some coffee.  I'm fine with whatever role you want to assign, and method to follow.

A quick update (I'm in the midst of patch posting and such).

* There's a pair of errors in the STEP CR Patch, I'm not sure if potentially CTD-causing.  A headgear item has two "Error: Could not be resolved". It's 'DBArmorHelmetWorn
"Shrouded Masked Cowl" [ARMO:00105969]', seemingly two custom-race heads from someone's personal game).  I've patched those out and this is probably worth a hotfix at the Nexus without incrementing anything other than the file's version number: https://mega.nz/file/dBh2xbJL#QRyrDPK3b3PBXxyRA6bm-nArxqxM_f-jiRbC29cQ2f8  I can't think of a good reason for those to be in there.  What other heads are there to deal with for a helmet/hood than humanoid, Argonian, and Khajiit?  I'm thinking it was probably Citrus or Demonica or something.

 

* Worth an incremented-version consideration: Some mods that end up being masters for the CR probably shouldn't be, either because they don't pertain to many players or they're things people might object to.

** I've already patched out "Masque of Argonian Vile": https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/108061/ and eliminated it as a master (not in the hotfix file above; that ONLY removed the unresolvables). There's a better mod for this anyway, that also does Khajiit, and it needs no patching.  Better yet, the ESP (in either of these cases) can be entirely eliminated!  I've already produced a CR that does this.

** Next, I patched out "Enhanced Blood Textures Lite": https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/108063 - one can now use the Full version if one wants to (at the cost of at least 1 more ESP slot).  Made a new CR that merges this with the tweak above.

** Still pending permissions: I patched out "Non-essential Children" and made a new-new CR that doesn't have it as a master. It can be swapped with the improved "Non Essential Children Reworked", though both actually had a bug in them which I also fixed.  Both have restrictive permissions, but still-around authors, so I've written to both of them.

** Not having "Stealth Skills Rebalanced" be a CR master would also be desirable, but there's some weirdness going on there that needs closer examination (CR is imposing changes not found in ANY of its masters, to trivial stuff like what low-end clothing is in some leveled lists).  Not sure if that's an error (like leftovers from STEP LE 2.x), or if some tool was used that merged LLs without making master dependencies.

** There're probably other mods that're CR masters that can be patched out like this with replacement ESPs.  These patches I'm generating will be useful for some non-STEP people, too.

 

That was just in the course of trying to reduce my own ESP load, and doesn't really relate to the "this FOMOD has changed" and "there's a typo here" kind of stuff to tweak in 3.0.0.

[Darklocq]

On 6/9/2021 at 10:22 AM, z929669 said:

If it's more than updating/correcting some mod notes, then a new version is warranted. ...

Once you are done updating/upgrading the official guide, you can also opt to build out an entirely custom guide of your own (an 'unofficial' guide) ...

Even NSFW mods are allowed if treated in a SFW way on this site. ...

As far as the wiki infrastructure goes, you shouldn't have need to mess with templates or anything related to Semantic Mediawiki ...

The most important thing is that you understand how to use "what links here" and how editing any transcludable page can affect many things unexpectedly ...

One thing to note: Due to wiki transclusion limitations, we avoid use of any templates on mod pages outside of FOMOD template. ...

wiki headings on mod pages will be added to the guide ToC, so we never use them in Recs.

I will grant you edit perms on mod/guide pages once you are ready to start. Just ask questions if you are uncertain about anything ...

post on the guide DEV topics for coming to a consensus on any changes (adding/dropping mods mostly).

Taking that in order:

I'd already read the versioning page, and have lurked some related threads (not sure they're the more internal ones - I don't think I tried to post in any of them).  Unofficial guide: already had one or another planned, but low-priority.  NSFW: probably not (I've never installed SexLab), but I can see doing a page on how to adapt some of it to SFW use (e.g. you might have to wander onto LL to get something).  On another site, I actually wrote something about what LL is good for if you're not into sex mods.  I've been reading up on Semantic MW anyway; I'm in the user guide in another tab.  Transclusion and WLH: Yeah, I make a lot of use of that stuff on WP and other wikis.  Good to know about the templates-and-transclusion issues. My normal habit is to create convenience templates for markup and such, but now I know that's not the way here.  Headings and ToC: noted.  Ready to start: probably in a day; no hurry.  I need a nap anyway, ha ha.  Consensus on change: Right; I already understood that's how it worked.  I'm more into "let's not make this mod mandatory if we don't have to" than "we should make this super-awesome mod mandatory".

[Darklocq]

On 6/9/2021 at 11:22 AM, TechAngel85 said:

I like curator better than editor.

As for the LE Guide maintenance, I wasn't planning on there being any more versions of it, no. The only maintenance I was going to do was what is being done by Darklocq, it seems, which was "routine maintenance" for instruction updates (for new versions of mods/tools), patch updates, no new mods would be added, old mods only dropped if they were no longer available....those sorts of things.

I like the sound of Curator, too.  As for the overall vision, I get it.  My goal hasn't been to remake 3.x in my own image with my pet mods, but fix up stuff.  My pet mods belong in a user "unofficial guide".  Like my ongoing project-of-sorts to make Ethereal Elven Overhaul viable again.  Maybe something on modern follower management with FLP.  To the extent "new mods" would be added to 3.x, I figure they would just be like-for-like upgrades (e.g. "Non Essential Children Reworked" in place of "Non-Essential Children"), and maybe some easy-to-merge quality of life fixes like "Muffle Your Dog" quiet version (to stop dog drowning out your quest-giver).  I'll need to go over again the list of mods that the CR Patch makes unnecessary.  Oh! One worth-including thing would be 21:9 ultra-wide, which is very common now.  I'm embarking on that myself, so when I get it worked out I'll be able to write up all the wrinkles.

[z929669]

32 minutes ago, Darklocq said:

I'll pore over all this after some coffee.  I'm fine with whatever role you want to assign, and method to follow.

A quick update (I'm in the midst of patch posting and such).

* There's a pair of errors in the STEP CR Patch, I'm not sure if potentially CTD-causing.  A headgear item has two "Error: Could not be resolved". It's 'DBArmorHelmetWorn
"Shrouded Masked Cowl" [ARMO:00105969]', seemingly two custom-race heads from someone's personal game).  I've patched those out and this is probably worth a hotfix at the Nexus without incrementing anything other than the file's version number: https://mega.nz/file/dBh2xbJL#QRyrDPK3b3PBXxyRA6bm-nArxqxM_f-jiRbC29cQ2f8  I can't think of a good reason for those to be in there.  What other heads are there to deal with for a helmet/hood than humanoid, Argonian, and Khajiit?  I'm thinking it was probably Citrus or Demonica or something.

 

* Worth an incremented-version consideration: Some mods that end up being masters for the CR probably shouldn't be, either because they don't pertain to many players or they're things people might object to.

** I've already patched out "Masque of Argonian Vile": https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/108061/ and eliminated it as a master (not in the hotfix file above; that ONLY removed the unresolvables). There's a better mod for this anyway, that also does Khajiit, and it needs no patching.  Better yet, the ESP (in either of these cases) can be entirely eliminated!  I've already produced a CR that does this.

** Next, I patched out "Enhanced Blood Textures Lite": https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/108063 - one can now use the Full version if one wants to (at the cost of at least 1 more ESP slot).  Made a new CR that merges this with the tweak above.

** Still pending permissions: I patched out "Non-essential Children" and made a new-new CR that doesn't have it as a master. It can be swapped with the improved "Non Essential Children Reworked", though both actually had a bug in them which I also fixed.  Both have restrictive permissions, but still-around authors, so I've written to both of them.

** Not having "Stealth Skills Rebalanced" be a CR master would also be desirable, but there's some weirdness going on there that needs closer examination (CR is imposing changes not found in ANY of its masters, to trivial stuff like what low-end clothing is in some leveled lists).  Not sure if that's an error (like leftovers from STEP LE 2.x), or if some tool was used that merged LLs without making masters.

** There're probably other mods that're CR masters that can be patched out like this with replacement ESPs.  These patches I'm generating will be useful for some non-STEP people, too.

 

That was just in the course of trying to reduce my own ESP load, and doesn't really relate to the "this FOMOD has changed" and "there's a typo here" kind of stuff to tweak in 3.0.0.

Thanks for the update. You should be able to edit mod pages now, but please hold off on making any changes other than updates to instructions due to mod updates (e.g., FOMOD options, etc.) until @TechAngel85 is able to address your findings with the CR patch. These changes can be made directly to the existing base Recommendations for 3.0.0 and corresponding updates to that changelog. Note the guide-version-specific mod recommendations as well (there are hover notes on the little icons on mod pages).

Based on your post, this definitely constitutes at least a hotfix version increment (3.0.1) ore more likely a minor increment (3.1.0). Either way, you should still be able to add new mods to the wiki per the instructions on the LE Portal page. If you do this, they cannot be used in the guide until each has a forum post and has been 'accepted' for inclusion (at least one upvote by one of the staff).

We can discuss next steps for updating the guide, regardless of any mod additions/removals. For example, the changelog should be updated to reflect any changes, but not the 3.0.0 changelog, since this looks like a version iteration. In this case, both 3.0.0 guide and changelog will be propagated to the next version pages and edited at those new locations ... more on that once we get there. Of course, it would be best to make mod-recommendations changes applicable to 3.0.0 (and changelog) prior to propagation into the new version.

[Darklocq]

 

On 6/9/2021 at 11:32 AM, z929669 said:

OK, so @Darklocq ... SHOULD version-increment the 3.0.0 guide then (if he wants to change mods or mod versions with significant updates ... otherwise, just minor updates to mod pages and guide text under same version ...

 

That was my understanding, based on the Versioning page (and what's been said here to date).

On 6/9/2021 at 11:51 AM, TechAngel85 said:

Well, that was my plan for the LE Guide since it didn't make sense to try to stretch our small staff over two of the same games right now. If Darklocq wants to continue with LE development and desires that to be the SkyrimLE Guide, then I'm all for its continued development. The easiest thing to do would be to mirror the SE Guide, as much as possible, and fork from it where required (like the LW/ENB/LOD sections). However, if the desire is to go outside our Mandates, then that would be appropriate for an unofficial guide using our framework. I'm cool either way.

I mustn't bite off more than I can chew on day one!  "Under-promise, over-deliver" and all 'at.  But that copy-to-fork-and-increment was already what I'd figured on doing if it came time for a 3.0.1.  I've been into Skyrim for years and keep coming back to it, and I have SE but don't plan to use it any time soon, since a bunch of mods I dig aren't ported to it yet.  I'll be around.  Even if I become not-around for a while (real life can intervene with stuff like cross-country moves - ya never know), I'll come back.  I don't do ESO, and I'm not waiting with bated breath for TESVI (it's going to be a buggy mess, of course, so it won't be any good for a year or so after release, LOL).

[DoubleYou]

17 minutes ago, Darklocq said:

One worth-including thing would be 21:9 ultra-wide, which is very common now.  I'm embarking on that myself, so when I get it worked out I'll be able to write up all the wrinkles.

Flawless Widescreen works flawlessly with Skyrim Legendary Edition, and it supports SkyUI.