DROPPED Torches Ignite Oil (by Thurderan)

[TechAngel85]

Discussion topic:

Torches Ignite Oil by Thurderan

Wiki Link

---

 

[CorneliusC]

Hi. This mod consists of one esp, which modifies two different records in 'FormId List'. These modifications/additions of spells to each record are then forwarded into the 'Step Patch - Conflict Resolution', along with other entries to the same records made by USCCCP and AOS. Since this mod, 'Torches Ignite Oil' has all its entries forwarded into the Step patch and does not create any new records of its own to refer to, would this not make this plugin/esp obsolete?

[Mousetick]

56 minutes ago, CorneliusC said:

Since this mod, 'Torches Ignite Oil' has all its entries forwarded into the Step patch and does not create any new records of its own to refer to, would this not make this plugin/esp obsolete?

It makes it redundant yes. This mod's plugin could be removed. It would make the load order simpler to install for users and lighter. But doing so creates new problems for the STEP maintainers. The same issue exists for anything that already is, or could be, incorporated into the STEP Patch(es), such as the recently discussed Lucien Lachance AE.

First there is the question of permissions. Does the mod author allow integrating their changes into another mod or plugin, and redistributing that?

Assuming the permissions allow it, incorporating small changes directly into CR Patches creates a long-term maintenance nightmare for the STEP Patch maintainers. Once the original mod plugin is removed from the load order, it's impossible to tell the origin of the changes in the CR Patch. If you look at the patch a few months from now, you can immediately see the merged changes from other plugins, but you'll likely be wondering what the heck are these torch things (from this mod) doing in the FormList. Or if you're rebuilding the CR Patch from scratch, the incorporated changes will be lost because they didn't appear separately in the load order.

To prevent these issues, I use this method, FWIW:

• I have a custom plugin dedicated to incorporating small changes from various mods. It's called 'Miscellaneous.esp'.
• If there is mod that I like and want to keep, but it makes trivial changes into a tiny plugin, I merge it in to Miscellaneous.esp.
• I keep a list of all the mods that are merged into Miscellaneous.esp.
• Miscellaneous.esp is included in my load order, obviously.
• My CR patch(es) exclusively contain conflict resolutions, including with Miscellaneous.esp which changes appear on their own in xEdit.
• It's clear and there is no ambiguity as to where the changes in the CR Patch(es) come from.

Hope this helps.

My notes for Miscellaneous.esp:

Spoiler

Miscellaneous: Compilation of tiny changes and fixes.

*** NO DEPENDENCY ON ANY MOD EXCEPT USSEP OR USMP ***

- Acoustic Space Improvement Fixes <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/78992>
- Better Court Mages <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/74409>
- Better Hearthfire Intro Letter <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/46258>
- Blackreach Cosmetic Patch <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/72163>
- Brandy-Mug - Fence Consistency <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/78482>
- Can't See What I Found <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/62623>
- Civil War Intro Scenes Run Only Once <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/22028>
- College of Winterhold Quest Start Fixes <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/53817>
- Companions - Don't be a Milk Drinker <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/19490>
- Court Wizards Sell Staves <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/51838>
- Dawnguard Don't Hunt Cured Vampires <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/5471>
- Dawnguard Visiting Advisor Outfit Tweak <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/95517>
- Disable Screen Blood <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/59581>
- Disable USSEP Book "Remove Unwanted Effects" <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/26092>
- Dunmer Ghosts in Tolvalds Cave Wear Bonemold Armor
    <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/76240>
- Durak Teleport Fix <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/65735>
- Dwarven Automatons - Resistances and Weaknesses <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/76240>
- Dwemer Ballista Crash fix <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/73859>
- Early Elementalist <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/22653>
- Falmer Shaman Staff Fix <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/88694>
- Geirmund's Hall Pull Chain <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/80218>
- Gift from a Friend <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/53812>
- Glowing Spider freeze Fix <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/79359>
- Go Away Eltrys <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/59276>
- Good Dog <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/30405>
- Green Water Cubemap Fix <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/95678>
- Headie Rides Again <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64144>
- Here We Go Again - World Interactions <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/37207>
- I Know How Marriage Works <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/43834>
- Ice Wraith Witbane <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/76240>
- Idrinth's Tweaks - Courier <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/78724>
- Ill Met Bolar's Oathblade <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/60994>
- Imperial Horses Use Imperial Saddles <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/89101>
- Less Aggressive Bears <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/74615>
- Lore-Corrected Races <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/44272>
- Lucien Lachance (Alt. Appearance) <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/39055>
- Misc Tweaks <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/38348>
    - Better Horses
    - Night Eye Redux
- Mount Anthor Dragon Fix <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/38510>
- MQ105 Duplicate Script Fix <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/94620>
- Nchardak Waterfall Fix (part of Water Effects Brightness and Reflection Fix)
    <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/63862>
- Nikolaf's Less Finicky Shouting <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/47843>
- No Blood Splatter on Screen (part of Enhanced Blood Textures)
    <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/2357> OR
- No Combat Screams <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/7102>
    modified to use RDO conditions
- No Hand Touches The Beacon <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/74361>
- No More Friendly Fire Complaints <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/25576>
- No Nagging in Taverns <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64490>
- No NPC Greetings - Reduced Range Greetings <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/1044>
- No Spinning Death Animation <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/1432>
- Northwind Iron Mine <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/72752>
- NPCs Can Swim in Combat <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/29772>
- Only Lover's Dead Give Inheritance Letters <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/46758>
- Proving Honor Companions Quest Progression Fix <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/66128>
- Quiet Arcadia <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/22029>
- Radiant Raiments Sell Wedding Outfit <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/57601>
- Random Encounter Tweaks <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/53300>
- *** Realistic Conversations - Longer Pause <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/1717>
  *** REMOVED because it makes NPCs talk way too often and the remainder is mostly bogus changes
- Realistic Humanoid Movement Speed (with Horses) <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/50173>
- Reasonable Predators <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/81518>
- Robber's Gorge Fixes <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/81495>
- Roggvir's Amulet of Talos <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/43834>
- Roggvir's Execution - Restored Dialogue <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/58837>
- Sensible Bribes <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/55450>
- Simple Fall Damage Tweaks <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/65423>
- Simple Pickpocket Tweaks <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/65424>
- Simply Smaller Wolves <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/10935>
- Simple Snow Improvements <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/78702>
    * Replaced Base Object Swapper config with actual overrides in plugin
- Skeletons don't breathe <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/18542>
- SoulCairn - Footprints Sand Patch <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/71222>
- SUEMR Simple Vampire Fixes <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/18147>
- Skyrim Landscape and Water Fixes - Light Sources <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/26138>
- Temporary Followers Keep Their Distance <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/84392>
- Thunderbolt Impact Fix <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/74613>
- Trespass <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/36842>
- Vampire Attacks Restored Outside of Walled Cities <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/21287>
- Vampire Scouts Only Spawn at Night <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/78222>
- Waterbreathing Breathless Emerge <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/14485>
- WEAdventurerSubChar Level Limit <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/76187>
- Whirlwind Sprint Delayed Voice Fix <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/92799>
- Windhelm Palace Disappearing Wall Fix <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/75744>
- Zombie Voice Remover <https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/6783>

That's about 90 plugins combined into one.

[TechAngel85]

27 minutes ago, Mousetick said:

... But doing so creates new problems for the STEP maintainers. The same issue exists for anything that already is, or could be, incorporated into the STEP Patch(es), such as the recently discussed Lucien Lachance AE.

First there is the question of permissions. Does the mod author allow integrating their changes into another mod or plugin, and redistributing that?

Yes and no.

Our view on permissions with nothing but simple plugin edits is this:
It's ridiculous to think anyone could "own" such small edits that anyone could stumble upon and make themselves. When permissions are closed on such mods, we simply recreate them from scratch; thus, incorporating them.

In the case of this mod, anyone looking at these lists in CK/xEdit could reasonably assume adding additional references/spells to the list would cause them to do the same thing the originals do. It's basic logic and reasoning so I have no issues just recreating the edits within the Patch from scratch to bypass any permissions (which are not set on this mod's page).

Lucien mod is a different story as it wasn't simple changes, but stylistic changes to realign that NPC to his Oblivion counterpart. This goes beyond simple plugin changes and would need permissions to be incorporated.
 

27 minutes ago, Mousetick said:

Assuming the permissions allow it, incorporating small changes directly into CR Patches creates a long-term maintenance nightmare for the STEP Patch maintainers. Once the original mod plugin is removed from the load order, it's impossible to tell the origin of the changes in the CR Patch. If you look at the patch a few months from now, you can immediately see the merged changes from other plugins, but you'll likely be wondering what the heck are these torch things (from this mod) doing in the FormList. Or if you're rebuilding the CR Patch from scratch, the incorporated changes will be lost because they didn't appear separately in the load order.

No, not really the case. We have a Patch Reference we can use for such things. Granted it may or may not have been upkept since I stopped working on the SE Guide to focus on other things. It does look I was the last to edit it, but I can't control what the other staff chooses to maintain or not.

[z929669]

I think Lucien's stylistic change is also possible to conceive with out that MA doing it first. I only consider something totally unique to require permissions (like brand new records or references). I have yet to inspect Lucien's though, so can't say for sure.

The changelog details changes to masters, but I didn't take the time to reference every little thing, because most of the work I've done is remove redundancies rather than add new changes to the patches. I'll be taking a closer look in the coming weeks (referencing several posts from the Feedback topic), but no time at present.

We also use Git, so nothing is really lost. Spriggin will make that even more robust.

Sooo much housekeeping to catch up on for several guides now.

[TechAngel85]

49 minutes ago, z929669 said:

Sooo much housekeeping to catch up on for several guides now.

Agree. As I'm going through some of the miscellaneous wiki content that isn't updated very often, I'm finding quite a bit that needs addressing. A pint to the good ol'days when we had a lot more staff for upkeep! 

[CorneliusC]

Interesting topics, thank you for this.

With this mod's esp now being clear as being redundant with the 'Step Patch - Conflict Resolution', i will go ahead and deactivate the esp, but keep the mod installed as a reference point.

Following the logic of this mod, might i suggest to maybe consider using the third of the mod's main files, 'Torches Ignite Oil - Shock Edition Arcane Archer Pack Compatibility', which adds shock and fire arrows to the 'TrapGasOnHit' record? USCCCP is already adding fire arrows to the record, so entry of the shock arrows would make the whole behaviour more consistent.

[z929669]

53 minutes ago, CorneliusC said:

Interesting topics, thank you for this.

With this mod's esp now being clear as being redundant with the 'Step Patch - Conflict Resolution', i will go ahead and deactivate the esp, but keep the mod installed as a reference point.

Following the logic of this mod, might i suggest to maybe consider using the third of the mod's main files, 'Torches Ignite Oil - Shock Edition Arcane Archer Pack Compatibility', which adds shock and fire arrows to the 'TrapGasOnHit' record? USCCCP is already adding fire arrows to the record, so entry of the shock arrows would make the whole behaviour more consistent.

This makes sense to me.

[TechAngel85]

Since we're disabling the plugin from the mod, it's completely redundant to have it listed in the Guide. I say we ensure the Guide Patch is covering this completely as we desire and then simply remove the mod from the Guide for the next update.

[z929669]

Tagging 'Dropped' for 2.3