DROPPED When Vampires Attack (by Arthmoor)

[rpsgc]

Discussion thread:
When Vampires Attack by Arthmoor
Wiki Link

---

Another great mod by Arthmoor.


It works similar to 'Run For Your Lives' only instead of being triggered by a dragon attack it's by a vampire attack.


It requires Dawnguard.

 

[CiXwOw]

Aw man! Why couldn't this have come out last week? Solitude just got attacked and I lost two people.

 

My first play through where civilians died. :(

 

Great suggestion, though. Essential, even (for me, at least). Thanks!

[oqhansoloqo]

This mod does not seem to work for me - Whiterun just got attacked by a Master Vampire and everyone nearby went in to the fight (except the courier): Belethor, Carlotta, Adrienne, to name a few.  Here is my mod list (I'm only going to show the non-STEP portion of my list) - what could be conflicting?

 

[spoiler=Mod List - showing only the non-STEP portion of it]+(SE + Custom) Stealth Skills Rebalanced - SNEAK BASIC+(SE + Custom) Immersive NPC in the Dark+(SE + Custom) Sleep Tight+(SE + Custom) Sleeping Innkeepers+(SE + Custom) Splash of Rain+(SE + Custom) Morning Fogs Refined+(SE + Custom) Moon Glow+(SE + Custom) Enhanced Lights and FX - SMIM Meshes+(SE + Custom) Enhanced Lights and FX - Dragonborn+(SE + Custom) Enhanced Lights and FX - Dawnguard+(SE + Custom) Enhanced Lights and FX - Interiors Only+(SE + Custom) Realistic Lighting Overhaul - Exteriors + Weathers Only+(SE + Custom) Follower Commentary Overhaul+(SE + Custom) Extensible Follower Framework+(SE + Custom) Duel - Combat Realism - Hardcore+(DDSOpt Custom) Deadly Dragons - Loremonger+(DDSOpt Custom) Better Signage - Inns and Shops+(DDSOpt Custom) Ethereal Auroras+(SE+ Custom) No Snow Under The Roof+(SE + Custom) Better Dynamic Snow+(DDSOpt Custom) Subliminal Traps+(DDSOpt Custom) iNeed+(SE + Custom) Harvesting animation+(SE + Custom) Harvest Overhaul+(SE + Custom) Dual Sheathe Redux - SIC Patch+(SE + Custom) Complete Crafting Overhaul - SIC Patch+(SE + Custom) Enhanced Blood Textures - SIC Patch+(SE + Custom) High Level Enemies - Raised Ability Caps+(SE + Custom) High Level Enemies - SIC Edition+(SE + Custom) Skyrim Immersive Creatures

 

Edited April 17, 2014 by oqhansoloqo

[Kuldebar]

This mod has some serious drawbacks: you can end up with a chain reaction situation where all the NPC's become locked up in "run" mode and don't resume their usual activities. It's a ticking time bomb of sorts because you don't have a problem...until you do. Disabling the mod usually sets things to rights, but speaking for myself, I'd prefer to not have to do such things. Run for Lives doesn't share the same issue, mainly because Dragons, unlike Vampires don't "hide" or attack in large numbers.

 

 

Arthmoor:

I'm sure you can appreciate the situation I find myself in here.On the one side, folks like yourself reporting that once the NPCs run, they never come out again.On the other, folks like kwestarz and those who replied to him claiming it doesn't work at all, NPCs rush to kill the vampire, and then end up dead.These situations cannot both be true of the same mod. Either it works, or it doesn't.Compound that with the problem that when I go to check on things as they are reported, I can never reproduce EITHER scenario. Vamps come to town, folks run to hide. I kill the vamps. They come back out.The only conclusion I can draw then is that there's some kind of mod conflict, and the only suspects I can think of would be this mod running a second attack that hadn't been resolved, a dragon attack that caused Run For Your Lives to send them into hiding, or the Wet & Cold mod triggering the "get out of the rain" behavior. For it to NOT work, then something is editing the Dawnguard quests that have been set to trigger these things to happen.Regardless, I cannot "fix it" when there is nothing manifesting itself as broken for me. I would be spinning my wheels endlessly only to end up right back here, with two posts next to each other, each reporting the same impossible opposite.

 

Script conflicts are very hard to troubleshoot or predict compared to record conflicts.

[redirishlord]

So, save often and keep a deep archive of previous saves? Encounter fatal issue, rollback as needed?

 

Or start a new playthrough and use Deadly Dragons MCM feature to make important npcs essential?

[oqhansoloqo]

One thing I notice is that when the Master Vampire attacked Carlotta was wearing a hood as though it was raining or snowing as she ran to attack - it was not raining or snowing.  It does lend me to believe that this could in fact have something to do with Wet and Cold, as Arthmoor suggested in his quote.

Edited April 18, 2014 by oqhansoloqo

[Kuldebar]

oqhansoloqo, on 18 Apr 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:oqhansoloqo, on 18 Apr 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:oqhansoloqo, on 18 Apr 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

One thing I notice is that when the Master Vampire attacked Carlotta was wearing a hood as though it was raining or snowing as she ran to attack - it was not raining or snowing.  It does lend me to believe that this could in fact have something to do with Wet and Cold, as Arthmoor suggested in his quote.

Yes, but there's also some other subtle/not so subtle problems which can occur mainly because scripts can interact with each other in way not necessarily predicted or planned by the mod other along with so many other variables in a modded game.

 

I've never used Wet & Cold (mainly due to it being script heavy) but here was my experience with WVA:

 

QuoteQuoteQuoteI entered Solitude for the first time on my character, the execution scene started but with only three actors...guards. No Roggvir..Seemed like a glitch, so I reloaded my save outside the city. Same thing on entering, ghost town and 3 guards acting like they are having an execution.I said screw it and went to the Winking Skeever...it was jam packed with NPC's...I couldn't move pass the entrance area inside.I don't know if WVA triggered this, I'm troubleshooting right now and will report back.UPDATE:Yes, disabling WVA unclogged the NPC's. As I approached the gate to Solitude a rather large crowd clumped out of town (Travellers of Skyrim, Populated Cities...Roads NPC's)Inside Solitude the Execution commenced normally, perhaps with a few missing spectators. It's not a bug..it's working as intended...but it's a caustic mix because it messes up scenes like the Roggvir's Execution.Its further compounded by NPC mods adding larger numbers to the mix.Drop a burning match in gasoline, don't say the match is broken if a fire starts.

This was in broad daylight (9 AM game time) by the way. I don't really categorize it as a conflict (as Arthmoor seems to do) It's just not a good feature to have in the game because it will step on other game routines in the manner I described in my quote.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Kuldebar

[redirishlord]

"Yes, disabling WVA unclogged the NPC's. As I approached the gate to Solitude a rather large crowd clumped out of town (Travellers of Skyrim, Populated Cities...Roads NPC's)"

 

This makes me wonder if there is a single culprit here, or if it's the shear number of npcs/scripts/etc that have to be managed in this scenario. If all of the above were running in the initial scenario with the Winking Skeeveer traffic jam, seems difficult to pin it on WVA. Has testing been done on When Vampires Attack without other mods adding to the load? Seems the only way to get proper data on its stability (just a thought, and no I'm not volunteering, I finally have a happy Wrye/BAIN install & I'm not looking to poke it with a stick).

[Kuldebar]

redirishlord, on 18 Apr 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:redirishlord, on 18 Apr 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:redirishlord, on 18 Apr 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:redirishlord, on 18 Apr 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:redirishlord, on 18 Apr 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:redirishlord, on 18 Apr 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:redirishlord, on 18 Apr 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:redirishlord, on 18 Apr 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

"Yes, disabling WVA unclogged the NPC's. As I approached the gate to Solitude a rather large crowd clumped out of town (Travellers of Skyrim, Populated Cities...Roads NPC's)"

 

This makes me wonder if there is a single culprit here, or if it's the shear number of npcs/scripts/etc that have to be managed in this scenario. If all of the above were running in the initial scenario with the Winking Skeeveer traffic jam, seems difficult to pin it on WVA. Has testing been done on When Vampires Attack without other mods adding to the load? Seems the only way to get proper data on its stability (just a thought, and no I'm not volunteering, I finally have a happy Wrye/BAIN install & I'm not looking to poke it with a stick).

That's kind of my point. (that whole match analogy...or was it metaphorical, meh, too lazy to google it atm.)

 

It's not a bug..it's working as intended...but it's a caustic mix because it messes up scenes like the Roggvir's Execution...

Drop a burning match in gasoline, don't say the match is broken if a fire starts.

 

PS. the additional NPC Mods I use don't add any scripts, but obviously adds actors which are impacted by WVA's scripts.

 

We all have different builds (STEP clones aside), for me it was simple decision tree:

 

If I add Mod A to my mod order and it causes this issue that I don't have without Mod A installed, then I will probably be less likely to want Mod A in my load order because on the balance I get more benefit from Mod's B through J which don't cause the problem when Mod A isn't active and present.

 

Further when the mod author essentially recognizes the outcome (to his credit, I suppose) but states it's the price of doing "business" -well, it frames things out very succinctly:

 

QuoteQuote

These situations cannot both be true of the same mod. Either it works, or it doesn't. <---not actually true when it comes to scripts by the way...

Compound that with the problem that when I go to check on things as they are reported, I can never reproduce EITHER scenario. Vamps come to town, folks run to hide. I kill the vamps. They come back out.  <---Precisely, too many possible variables, no way Arthmoor could reliably test all the permutations

 

The only conclusion I can draw then is that there's some kind of mod conflict, and the only suspects I can think of would be this mod running a second attack that hadn't been resolved, a dragon attack that caused Run For Your Lives to send them into hiding, or the Wet & Cold mod triggering the "get out of the rain" behavior. For it to NOT work, then something is editing the Dawnguard quests that have been set to trigger these things to happen.  <---conflict is a weasel-ish word here, Arthmoor made a match, it lights a fire when dropped in gasoline, is that a conflict or an unintended consequence? A bug or a feature?

 

Regardless, I cannot "fix it" when there is nothing manifesting itself as broken for me. I would be spinning my wheels endlessly only to end up right back here, with two posts next to each other, each reporting the same impossible opposite. <---here's the meat of the matter and all Arthmoor really needed to state.

 

Edited April 18, 2014 by Kuldebar

[redirishlord]

I had the same feeling regarding EBT criticisms, invariably the mod order containing Frostfall and SIC would get mentioned and I'd involuntarily facepalm & say "well, there's yur problem". At least the memory patch 3.0 (thanks sheson) seems to have alleviated alot of the overload issues, still pays to be strategic with your resources (I chose to cut weight by removing the frostfall/hunterborn/realistic needs etc & save my hardcore survival for FallouNV, it all about choices, and I'd miss blood & locational damage too much in Skyrim).

[oqhansoloqo]

I'm curious to know why you said that WVA was working as intended when it messed up the execution.  Was there a vampire at the execution?  If so, I imagine that Arthmoor could have made an exception in his code to prevent the run to shelter behavior to run with the specific vampire NPC causing the issue with the execution scene.  If not, how was it working as intended?

Edited April 18, 2014 by oqhansoloqo

[Kuldebar]

oqhansoloqo, on 18 Apr 2014 - 1:07 PM, said:oqhansoloqo, on 18 Apr 2014 - 1:07 PM, said:

I'm curious to know why you said that WVA was working as intended when it messed up the execution.  Was there a vampire at the execution?  If so, I imagine that Arthmoor could have made an exception in his code to prevent the run to shelter behavior to run with the specific vampire NPC causing the issue with the execution scene.  If not, how was it working as intended?

Benefit of the doubt, courtesy, but also there was a vampire sprawled dead in the empty streets of Solitude when I first investigated (before I had figured the rest out). I also briefly saw a citizen run pass me into his house and other than the guards executing standing on the empty execution platform no other NPC's were in sight...until I entered the Winking Skeever. And OMFG...wall to wall NPC's (vanilla and modded)

 

So, my best guess, there was another vampire or vampires somewhere either stuck or cowering...but it was nine in the morning so, I don't know how that would work.

 

Unmodded:

 

All the brave citizens of Solitude would have attacked the vampire interlopers, some (those not flagged essential/protected) would most likely die

 

WVA Modded:

 

All non-guard/soldier NPC's run for their homes and Inn and stay there until the menace is removed.

 

What could possibly go wrong?  :)

Edited April 18, 2014 by Kuldebar

[oqhansoloqo]

Sounds like I should just take your and redirishlord's combination of suggestions and just remove WVA from my mod list and use Deadly Dragon's MCM feature that makes important NPCs essential.  That way when vampires attack, the important people won't die during the attack.  And personally, I think a legendary large fire-breathing flying lizard is a lot more terrifying than a human-like blood-sucking vampire so I don't mind as much people running in to stop a vampire as much as running in to attack a dragon.  Though it still makes more sense for the majority of people to run away and let the guards handle it - if it doesn't work anyway, at least I can prevent the ticking time bomb from going off where people end up hiding in their houses and inns for the rest of eternity when there are no more undead vampires around.

 

I am going to try some testing first though, like disabling Wet & Cold to see if that fixes the WVA issue with people not running.  I'd rather have Wet & Cold though than WVA, so whatever the outcome it's going to be WVA that goes and not Wet & Cold.

Edited April 18, 2014 by oqhansoloqo

[Kuldebar]

@ oqhansoloqo

 

For dragon's I use Run for Lives (for NPC survivability), and have never had an issue...but dragons of course attack differently than vampires.

 

As for NPC's dying from Vampire Attacks...well I generally just avoid travelling at night into towns and cities. This greatly reduces the likelihood of the Dovahkiin "stumbling" upon (let's be honest causing the vampires to spawn) these night creatures in populated settlements.

 

At night, if not in a town, I camp. If in a town before night falls I seek an Inn or other interior shelter and don't emerge until dawn. I save many lives this way.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Kuldebar

[oqhansoloqo]

With "Run For Your Lives" (RFYL) I heard that it is incompatible with the part of "Deadly Dragons" (DD) that spawns extra dragon attacks.  So not enabling any of the extra dragon event features in the MCM menu keeps RFYL working properly.  The issue I read is that the extra dragons spawned are marked differently in their code than the normal dragon event dragons.  RFYL behavior does not recognize the extra DD dragons and so NPCs will run to fight them like normal (instead of flee from them).  This is what I read - not yet tested by myself.