Shadriss

Thanks for that confirmation - I tend to get lost in the walls of text on the USLEEP threads. To your other questions, I have gotten it working, but I haven't made it up to Winterhold yet to look around. It's not a stroll in the park to get there in my line up because of Frostfall, and I have to make sure I can survive the cold before I make that trip. I dropped Better Magic from my lineup in favor of Mighty Magic, and so far that seems to be working well. I feel like a regular Darth Sidious right now, dual casting sparks at everything and watching them fall before me. Once I've played a bit deeper into the game, I'll make my own recommendations, but I'm not at that stage yet. As the the last, the only hotkeys I use are part of SkyUI, and those don't do what you are looking for, so no can help, I'm afraid. Mages are almost universally the opposite of the warrior... weak where they are strong, smart where they are no-so-much, and so forth. There are always exceptions to this - it's been done before, of course - but the general image of the Mage, even withing TES, if of a person who spends all their time in books and study to master a form of applied science that allows little time for other martial pursuits. In a lot of books and the like, what TES would call a spellsword is usually a former Mage who left their studies for whatever reason, and not a warrior who picked up a few spells here or there. Skyrim paints this same picture, given that the Mages are in a COLLEGE. I agree that the Devs may not have been thinking in this line... at least some of them. There seems to be something of a split-personality psychosis going on here. Alot of the Vanilla Perks are out of balance, poorly thought through, rushed, or some combination of all three, I agree. I'm not saying that I don't use a few perk tree mods - I do. Kryptopter has a pair of them to address the Stealth and Blacksmithing issues which work quite well for me. However, your comment regarding STEP is... well, it's showing a lack of understanding of it's intent, I think. STEP is designed to augment vanilla, not replace it. By which I mean we want it to look better as much as possible, run as smooth as possible, and fix as many bugs as possible without straying too far from the base game. That's it's intent, it's purpose, it's mandate. Ordinator or any other perk tree mod substantially veers from this. Bad design, which is what we are seeing here, I think, is not a bug. Therefor, rebalancing or altering goes beyond the purposes of STEP, so they aren't included for consideration. That said, I'd be surprised if any of the regulars here DIDN'T have a perk alteration or two tucked away in their personal builds. I don't disagree with anything you said - apart from Ordinator being the best choice because YMMV.

Cro - your answer is the post above yours. Literally. Just scroll up a little bit, and read. THERE you go. :)

If that's a reference to SKSE and SkyUI, then in my case, you are likely correct.

The difference is... astounding. I basically set up as Kel suggested in his linked guide, and all I can is... UN-LIMITED POWAH! THIS is what I was looking for... hopefully it stays in this vein as I continue on to the College and into Mastery, but so far it's been exactly what I was looking for. Apart from the part where I accidentally un-enchanted my robe and hood and walked around Whiterun naked for about 10 minutes. Oops.

Given that most replacer solutions had that neck seam issue, it's hardly a killer. That said, it may be time to turn the project back on, if you or someone else has time.

Just to be sure that means what I think it means... the days of CTD due to memory overage may soon be over? Really and truly? HEY! MICROSOFT! GET THE LEAD OUT!

Well, at this point, XCE only really gives us stuffs for the womens, since Better Males overwrites it all. I know that there was a big discussion about a year ago in here about developing an 'in-house' female replacer, but I'm not sure what happened with that. So at the moment, BBR is replaced by Cover Khajits and (if you choose) FAR, the males by Better Males, and the women are left dry, assuming that the replacer I mentioned didn't pan out.

This would be great - if the poster of the Mod was Xenius. It isn't. Given that Xenius just hid all of his mods, it can be fair to say he doesn't want his work out there anymore, and I imagine that mod you linked will be pulled down shortly unless he gets Xenius' permission, which he doesn't have since that was posted in 2013 and the pull down of the other mods was only in the last few days. Apart from that, because all the assets are combined, the way that STEP combined them originally can't be done, as XCE was way down on the list and BBR was at the top. Maybe there isn't any direct effect in this case because they alter differing things, but then again, I'm not as technically familiar as someone like Tech. Regardless, I don't think this will fly in the long run, which makes this a short term solution at best.

@Kelmych - as an FYI, Midas Magic is now hidden on the Nexus - no longer an option. Additionally, Revenge of Collette has been abandoned by it's author in favor of developing Shouts Unlimited, which I will be trying. I will not be using RoC, partially due to abandonment, partially due to not really understanding the system it put into place.

I dunno that I 'recommend' any of them - they were my initial looks into ways to 'fix' magery in Skyrim. But as to the actual question, doubtful. STEPs mandate centers around two core things (though there are other considerations). First, it has to be as close to vanilla as possible while being an improvement. None of these really are, and many of them make changes to the skill trees themselves. A huge hit against inclusion in STEP, but not the end of the process. Second, if it IS going to depart from vanilla, it has to be considered something of a bugfix situation - one where a mechanic is broken, probably not what Bethesda really had in mind, and can be fixed or partially repaired with such mod. That one is more debatable, but after this discussion, I'm more inclined to say that they aren't in this group either. As Baron points out, it's possible (through planning, my arch-nemesis) to have a very competitive Mage build in vanilla, so the system isn't broken per-se, though it may have some balance issues. Both of those said, just because they won't likely ever be in STEP doesn't mean that you shouldn't use them if you like them. I have a great MANY mods that are not STEP (Campfire, Frostfall, iNeed, ETaC, to name a few), and while it may take a little work to get them all to play along nicely, it's possible to do so, and I can only encourage you to try it out and see how it feels. STEP, as Tech points out to many, is a Guide... a starting point, if you will, for getting into Skyrim modding. Most of us have mods that aren't in the guide that we'll swear by... but if it doesn't meet the mandate, it doesn't make it into the guide. @Baron - thanks for the semi-reprieve, but I still feel somewhat the fool. I have always hated people getting up on soapboxes with no real knowledge of the subject they are talking about, and I just turned into one of them for a few days. Fortunately, I'm not someone who gets to enmeshed in my own perfection to admit they were wrong. I don't think I'm entirely wrong still, but a good many of my statements were based on information that was, to say the least, seriously flawed in execution. So... when I get more of a chance, it's time to try it the RIGHT way.

What I am about to say merits attention. Listen closely - I don't say this often. I've seriously screwed up here. As it happens, I know Kessno in RL as well, and we've been talking tonight about this subject, and I've come to realize that I've been making a serious mistake in my approach to magic. I've been grandstanding about how powerless they appear to be in the early game in particular, and have only now realized that I've made at least two mistakes in my approach, both driven by how long I've played other builds. Specifically: A) Not using mage equipment. I keep using Helgen as my reference point, and keep forgetting that there is a robe and hood in the torture chamber that specifically are there to help the starting mage... and never once have I actually ever used them. Why? Mostly because I've played as a archer for so long that it never even occurred to me. I became of victim of my own experiences, and didn't even question it. B) Again, without even thinking about it, I slowed down my growth as a mage by NOT choosing the Mage Stone after Helgen... by default, I always take the Thief Stone because that is what I have always done in the past. So, those two things said, a lot of my problems with being a Mage were born out of the fact that I wasn't even correctly set up in the first place. SO - while it's obvious from other posts that there are some things to work on here, I'm going to retract a lot of my statements until I actually know what I'm talking about... which I don't, apparently. So yeah... oops? Imma go hide in the corner now for a while.

I think you miss part of my point, but that's fine - the discussion is the important thing here. So, let me rephrase a little and perhaps address your comments here. Interesting is only part of it. Though, on that track, sticking to vanilla here, let's look at this. Going to Helgen again, because this is likely the first time one will try magic of any sort in the game, my original statement stands. Using only magic, Flames in particular, you basically have to end up kiting every single foe and drain your pool several times over. From the standpoint of being interesting, certainly it isn't. It's more annoying and frustrating. This kills interest, and in many cases will almost force players to choose a more blade and bow oriented build in a simple bid to survive. I can accept needing to use potions to restore the pool in extended combat. I can accept use of enchantments (once you get that far in the game, which currently would be a chore as a pure mage) as a valid way to make yourself more into the BA of Magery I envision. I cannot accept that in a one on one battle, or even two on two, that I cannot shoot flames from my hands and burn one of them to a crisp in fairly short order. I recently was tasked by the Companions to take down a wanted criminal. To test my magery build, I decided to use nothing but. As a reference, I was character level 11 with Destruction 27 using only flames. I had a mana pool of 190, and all available Destruction perks. I drained this completely while backpedaling from this criminal, and he was only just a hair more than halfway down on his HP. Were it not for a potion that sped up my mana recovery and the burn damage he sustained while I waited to refill and unload again, I would certainly have been killed. By contrast, as a archer (which is typical for me), I could have one-shot him from stealth, at range, and never been in any danger at all. Even 1- or 2-handed weaponeers would have never been in as much danger in such a confrontation. I would imagine (and please, correct me if I'm wrong...) that your vanilla play-through that you mention involved a great deal of either hit-and-run magery or a great deal of resorting to blade and bow. Neither of these, in my mind, is the essence of being a mage. To see a mage take the field should be to fear for your own life without a means to counter them. They command the very elements, and bind reality to their will. They shoot flames from their hands. AI prevents this from happening, as no actual person would likely charge straight at what is, for all intents and purposes, a human flamethrower. They do. This is a problem, because in terms of pure damage output and armor, the Mage simply cannot compete with the more brawny builds. Truth, and no argument, so far as it goes. Any more blade and bow oriented build has a great deal of flexibility. Mages do not, not to the same degree that the others do. An archer has range on his side - Mages do not. Though spells like Ice Spike can, in theory, be used from great range, the simple fact that spells cannot be used from stealth like arrows kills this advantage. Stealth breaks instantly on cast, unlike an archer's arrow shot, where you may be able to get two or three shots off without revealing your location. A blade user has armor on his side - Mages do not. Even with enchantments and Alteration spells to buff armor, they cannot trade close-range blows with enemies. They shouldn't have to from the arch-type standpoint anyhow. In sufficient numbers, no mage can stand up to infantry without significant preparations and AOE type spells (which are also lacking in the Mage's repertoire.) So long range is out... short range is out... where exactly does the Mage shine, then? I agree with your statement that scaling is a big part of the problem. What I find interesting is that your own statements would seem, to me, to only support my original premise - that mages in a vanilla game cannot stand on their own without resorting to other means that are not, thematically speaking, options for a mage. Stepping away from all of that for a moment to wrap up... in any fantasy game, Mages are huge battle-space multipliers. Their power is out of scale with anything else on the field. There are ways to work against them - usually through stealth (archers and assassins?) or ambushes (the blade users?), but in any situation in which a Mage knows their foe is there and is even remotely prepared for combat, it is extremely one-sided, and not on the side of the blade and bow crowd. Now, I'm not saying I want a god-caster... that would be even less fun that what is here. What I am saying is that they should at least be able to stand against those groups and be a bit more feared than they currently are... and that's PC or NPC both. Mod suggestions are always good, though I'll have to look at Ordinator before I could say anything about this combination, as though I've heard of it, I've never looked it up. So on this portion of your comments, I won't comment myself. Glad you seem to not have problems with the vanilla setup for mages... or at least minimal ones... but a large portion of the rest of the community would seem to disagree for a multitude of reasons, only some of which I have listed here and in my original post.

Lots of discussion in your linked thread, Kel... I like a lot of the thoughts there. I'd add in a mod that adds in spells that you missed, "Elemental Destruction Magic" (69474) that adds in spells similar to what is already in the game, only in Air and Earth elements. Anyhow, while there was a lot of discussion, you stop short of actual recommendations and solutions, which I think is where we really need to go with this. You've mentioned in your reply what you are using, but I notice that only covers part of the solutions you discuss in your Pack Ideas. I take it you are still working on this?

OK, so as Tech and myself briefly discussed in another thread, Magery suck vanilla. I know STEP's mandate is as close to vanilla as possible (with some caveats), but the simple truth is that magic, especially combat (Destruction) spells simply don't cut it. Simple example: Helgen Underground. I walk into a room with five foes, three melee and two archers. My options are: A) Break out Sword/Axe/Bludgeoning Instrument and do that voodoo that you do so well. Foes are dead. Game progresses. B) Break out Flames. Magika runs out. All foes are still alive. Resort to A. C) Same as B, but refuse to resort to A. Die. Reload. Resort to A. No self-respecting mage would break out a weapon on the order of a sword, etc. Spellswords are kind of an exception to this, but even there, they are primary mages with a backup plan. The spellcasting is thier primary focus, not a sword slinger with a few useful casting buffs. I'd LOVE to be able to be the BA Mage that the College of Winterhold deserves AND needs... but I can't with vanilla - not without resorting to methods that just aren't... right for the mage. So, to the end, I'm looking for something to address this issue without straying TOO far from vanilla. I've not done an exhaustive search, but I have found a few potentials. If you have used them and can speak to their effectiveness, please do so. If you see one that's missing, speak up as well. 1 - Balanced Magic. This one changes a lot of things, but seems to be on the track of what I'm talking about above.I've never been able to get to higher levels of casting (my Restoration skill, for example, just passed 20 for the first time in the six years I've been playing this game. Yes, you read that right, that's how underwhelmed I've been by the magic), so I can't really evaluate a lot of the changes it makes, so any insight here would be helpful. 2 - Mighty Magick Skyrim. This is kind of my 'outer limits' mod, as it makes many huge changes and additions to the system. What I can't get a feel for is how will it performs in actual combat, and again, I can't really evaluate the statements since I've never been able to get my skills up that high. 3 - Better Magic. Seems to be a watered down version of Balanced Magic, but again, my ability to make evaluations here is somewhat lacking. I also ran across Conjuration and Summoning Fixes, and I am curious if anyone knows if these issues were corrected by the USLEEP or not. If not, it may be something to throw over for bugfix mod consideration in the main guide as well, but that's another thing for later. Thoughts, comments, or recommendations? Bring'em on.

SO the search continues. I'll let you know if I find anything. So far, I've only found a couple I like that add to Magery in general, but they are all outside STEP mandate, so I never brought them up.

Truth, Tech. I think that's been the real crux of the problem with the Mages in Skyrim... magic just doesn't cut it. Even at early levels, you just don't have enough juice to take on even a single foe, let alone four or five at once, without resorting to blade or bow, and no self-respecting mage would do that. I've seen a few mods out there that try to address this, but they also tend to add in stuff that's WAY OP that didn't need to be there. Don't supposed you have something in your personal collection to address that, would you?

Let's be honest, Greg - there is no fixing the radiant quests. I can see what they were intended as - a set of infinitely repeatable quests to give you more stuff to do after you finished the main line quests - but they greatly missed the mark in implementation and scope. I am almost always in the Thieves guild, and the thought of the Guild Master being sent on what are essentially 'make-work' quests is insulting. Only the DB radiants make any real sense since you are the Listener at that point, and all the murder sprees basically have to come through you anyways. In my ideal version, the current radiant quests need to be as you mentions - filler in between the bigger steps of the main quest. They should have been deliberately designed to make you use the skill sets relevant to the group you are working with (so a lot of spell development for the Mages), forcing you to actually be GOOD at thier stuffs before you somehow end up in charge. (Arch-mage can't cast anything more than flames and self healing? Sure... why not? :eyeroll:) Once at the pinnacle, there should have been much higher level and difficult quests that, while repeatable, could believably require the attention of the head-guy-what's-up-in-charge. The DB kind of does this, but the others certainly don't. Anyway, rant off. It would have been great if the ESF series had continued on and done the mages guild, as that would have given us a trifecta of mods that address at least some of what I mention above.

I greatly fear that this IS the "beefy SP game" you mention, otherwise we'd have heard about something else by now, I think. I have been hearing rumors of BioWare working on another new SW project in the last few months, though it was mostly put together through assumptions, so who knows how accurate that is. EA lost a lot of credibility with me in the 00's with a lot of obvious cash grabs. They've been better in the last five years or so, but as you say, the wariness remains, and will for some time I think.

Holy Necropost, Batman... Imma save one of the moderators a bit of trouble here, and tell you to start a new thread about your specific issues... this one is over two years dead. It's beyond ripe... leave it be.

Elevated membership! Yay! *checks pipboy* Altitude, 0.5 feet. Well, that's six inches more than earlier, so...

The SP campaign is the one thing I'm looking at here - I've never been much of a MP player, and SW has always been about the story, so when there wasn't one for the first BF, all I could see was a missed opportunity. Maybe EA gets one right this time... ...but I wouldn't hold my breath. It IS EA, after all.

So I read. I take it then that all of your concerns will all addressed at some point - I'll be honest, the entire thread went into the TLDR category after the first page and a half. :) Regardless of how this ends up going, I'll likely be along for the ride in some capacity. I'll be retiring from the USN in the next month or so and going back to school, so I may have more time than once I did to get involved a bit more. *shrug* We'll see.

I must correct myself - I've never seen that one before. It's feature list is impressive, to be certain. Would replace one or possibly two of the ones I recommend. I'm not usually a mage, so I don't spend a lot of time up there, but I may have to mess with it now to see how this works. From my read of it, there are lots of patches included in the installer, so the best practice here would be to give it a whirl and see what happens. If you've setup SKSE IAW STEP instructions, you won't need to make the SKSE.ini changes the author mentions either... you'll have already done it. Anyhow, I may be putting this in myself now, so... thanks? @Tech: Apologies for the double post, but the ability to edit my own posts mysteriously vanished in the last 19 minutes. Daboo? EDIT: I missed a Mage guild recommendation from my own list as well. It is basically a Mage version of the mod "Not So Fast - Main Quest", called, who knew? "Not So Fast - Mage's Guild" (64633). That will address a few other issues with the guild as well, timing wise.

I still run CACO, and all I did was drop it in. No patching that I did, anyhow, and I've not seen any issues. As for Immersive, I'll have to look at the actual mod itself, as it's not in my list. It sounds familiar which means I've likely looked at it before, but I'll take another look and give you my two cents.

I don't doubt that at all, Tech. But the lack of SKSE, as far as I'm aware, prevents things like SKYUI and the MCM from being adapted, and a large portion of the mods I like to run are based in those two in particular. When/If SKSE gets updated, and the rest begin to follow, I'll look more into it. For the now, however, I have a good and stable build that looks really decent, so why screw with it right now?