SKYRIMLE SkyRealism - Shiny by MTichenor

[z929669]

I am still not entirely certain how body meshes affect the ability to apply armor textures to mods like Shiny, but I do understand the concept of a big community project towards a common goal ;)

 

I don't think it is ever too late for that.

 

EDIT: Great article you linked. Very informative and simple to understand.

[CaBaL]

I am still not entirely certain how body meshes affect the ability to apply armor textures to mods like Shiny, but I do understand the concept of a big community project towards a common goal ;)

 

I don't think it is ever too late for that.

simple... the vanilla mesh with tweaked values for shiny will not work on cbbe.unp and so.the model is actually different....textures variate on meshes bases... if the model is reflective on its own it need darker specular maps...if it's dull in settings needs a brighter specular and env.

 

having instead  a fixed meshes with those specularity values already baked into makes everything simplier... because cbbe unp whatelse would move their steps using the fixed meshes as a base and not the vanilla bugged one.

now with 10k body replacers... to provide compatibility for everything is a mess... i say it's late in this meaning.

let's bring to a couple good model makers the idea.... maybe weijiessen for envmaps and efects .... andmaybe it's not so late :D

[z929669]

OK, I sort of understand a bit more, but my limited understanding of the dance between body replacers, clothing and armor meshes/textures is part of my problem. Do the body meshes interact with the armor meshes in ways other than that armor needs to fit over body? In other words, do these meshes 'communicate' via their properties in some way? (nobody needs to answer that, I am just stating rhetorically to convey my uncertainty in this area :P )

 

Yes, let's bring in those more knowlegeable than me to hop on board this community project

 

(I'll pick it up at some point)

[Aiyen]

Yes Z the models have information in them that relate to how they visually show. Since the vanilla models where cut back and simplified for whatever reason, then some of the more advanced effects like shiny will not work universally with any body replacer , since they are all based on the base vanilla model, and hence carry on the problem.

 

So even if the issue is fixed for vanilla meshes, then someone needs to redo the uni cbbe etc. as well with the new values. Gonna take quite some time to do properly.

 

At least that was my understanding of it all.

[z929669]

OK, I guess that I thought that clothing and armor models were actually separate from body models, but if the clothing/armor are using the body models directly, it makes more sense to me (i.e., I thought that clothing/armor models wrapped around the body models and that each model interacted with its corresponding texture independently).

[Aiyen]

Oh no I did not mean it like that :S

Yeah that was not clear! My bad! What you are saying is entirely correct!

 

Bodies are separate from the armors, but the armor meshes need to be altered to fit them. But since the altered meshes we have now are all altered versions of vanilla armor meshes, then they will ALL have to be remade which is no small task.

[z929669]

Oh no I did not mean it like that :S

Yeah that was not clear! My bad! What you are saying is entirely correct!

 

Bodies are separate from the armors, but the armor meshes need to be altered to fit them. But since the altered meshes we have now are all altered versions of vanilla armor meshes, then they will ALL have to be remade which is no small task.

OK, but all of the armor meshes are already configured to work with the vanilla body meshes, so if MTichenor's vanilla armor meshes incorporate the changes, then why can't the AMB armor textures use them? ... and why is there any issue at all with the custom body meshes, since they will already demand altered armor meshes in many cases?

 

Back to square one for me o_O

[Aiyen]

Each armor mesh have a unique UV map that tells how the texture is wrapped around the mesh.

AMB could require some special ones... I have not looked into this but would think it is stuff like this that is the reason. Cabal would have to tell the fine details.

 

The reason it is a problem for the altered body meshes are that most of the edited armor meshes are based on the vanilla, just with altered dimensions (larger breasts for example). Some even add additional features (Like bouncing breasts). However they in general keep the vanilla edits in terms of visuals, and material settings etc.

 

Since the changes to the meshes are non trivial (from what I understand) then it is not a simple matter to just mass produce new meshes. They would have to be carefully remade for each body mod. And again said meshes would only be optimal for use with a limited number of texture mods like AMB. Since the textures would have to be remade to fit the new mesh settings.

 

hope that makes more sense! :)

[MTichenor]

Aiyen, making new meshes or animating them is non-trivial, but adding environment mapping to them is.

 

z929669, about half the armor/weapons didn't have environment masks, and I had to create those from the existing specular maps. If CaBaL changed the specular maps, then those environment masks won't match the texture. You'll have bright shiny spots in odd places where the specular map changed.

 

Since z929669 requested it...Here's how to change meshes to incorporate environment mapping.

 

1) Open the NIF in NIFSkope.

2) Click the mesh you wish to add environment mapping to, and locate the NiTriShape in the Block List.

3) Expand the NiTriShape in Block List and expand the BSLightingShaderProperty under it as well.

4) In the Block List, click the BSLightingShaderProperty to bring up it's Block Details.

5) Under Block Details change the Skyrim Shader Type from Default to Environment Map.

NOTE: If Skyrim Shader Type already has a shader type other than default, do not change it.

6) Under Block Details change Shader Flags 1 to include SLSF1_Environment Mapping.

7) Under Block Details change Environment Map Scale to 1.0.

8) Under Block Details, click the blue arrow in the Texture Set.

9) Under Block Details, expand the Textures field.

NOTE: The first string under textures is the diffuse map and opacity map. The second string is the normal map and specular map (_n.dds).

10) Set the 5th string to the path and filename of the desired environment map (_e.dds), if it is not already set.

NOTE: The environment maps can be found in the data\textures\cubemaps folder.

11) Set the 6th string to the path and filename of the desired environment mask (_m.dds or _em.dds), if it is not already set.

 

It should take less than 1 minute to do this. I did about 400 meshes in a day.

[Aiyen]

Ah thanks for clarifying this! Nice to learn something new about meshes..... I still get really confused every time I look at them in detail. And the last time I tried to alter the environmental maps etc. on one (A rock) I kinda just thought... meh I will just settle for a half decent normal map instead.

[MTichenor]

About Texturing with Environment Mapping

 

The diffuse map is a combination of an object's color and opacity, with opacity set in the alpha channel. Some texture artists tend to include bright spots in the diffuse map "where the light would glint off edges and stuff". This would be fine IF you do not have specular maps or environment masks. Correct practice when using environment mapping is to put those bright spots in the specular map and environment mask.

 

The normal map is a combination of an object's surface normal vector and specular amount, with specular set in the alpha channel. The normal map contains direction of a vector pointing out from the surface of the object, with X Y and Z direction stored in the Red Green and Blue channel respectively. There are two kinds of normal maps, one in which the XYZ is absolute (which tend to have all colors) and one in which the XYZ is an offset relative to the direction of the surface (and tend to be mostly sky blue).

 

The environment map is similar to what you would see in a panoramic camera shot. It contains 6 images that can be arranged on sides of a cube such that if you were sitting in the exact center of the cube, it would look as if you were sitting where the camera was. In Photoshop, the first four images are the sides, the 5th image is up and the 6th image is down. The environment maps are cube maps, and working with them in photoshop requires you set the nvidia DDS plugin save mode from 2D Texture to Cube Map. You also need to enable mipmap generation for Cube Maps or they won't work in Skyrim.

 

The environment mask contains an objects reflectivity. The environment masks are 2D textures, and require you to set the nvidia DDS plugin save mode back to 2D Texture (if you've been working with Cube Maps). Mipmaps are not required for environment masks, but is recommended for both texture quality and VRAM usage.

 

When using an Environment Map Scale of 1.0 in the BSLightingShaderProperty, you can use the following as a guideline for making or editing textures:

 

Medium diffuse, zero env mask, zero to low specular for cloth.

Low to medium diffuse, zero env mask, low specular for leather.

Low to medium diffuse, zero env, medium specular for stone.

Medium diffuse, low to medium env, zero to low specular for gems and glass.

Low diffuse, low env, low to medium specular for dull metals.

Low diffuse, medium env, low to medium specular for bright metals.

 

I HIGHLY recommend not using any value less than #202020 on a diffuse map unless you don't intend it to be visible at all, and not using a value over #808080 unless you intend it to be brilliant white at all times. Using a value over #808080 in the environment mask will make environment mapping overly bright in dark caves, resulting in the material looking like it glows.

[Aiyen]

This makes me want to try to go back over that crystal retexture for falmer caves that I just talked about! What you just said makes quite a bit of sense! Thanks for that IndigoNeko!

[z929669]

Thanks Indigo. Good info, and I hope that we can experiment with it. I believe in that last post you are referring to world-space and tangent-space normals, no? Anyway, I think that my initial grasp of armor/clothing/body meshes was essentially correct after seeing the further explanation from you guys. I was thrown off by suppositions about having to redo all the other armor mod meshes and body mods and such.

 

STEP does not use body mods, so almost all armors are on the table for us (right??), and using Indigo's mesh tweaks should work fine, although some of these may conflict with AMB textures in some way. Will wait to hear what CaBaL says about that.

 

(BTW, IndigoNeko = MTichenor ... I had forgotten that!)

[MTichenor]

Yes, I was referring to world-space (or, more accurately, object-space) and tangent-space normals.

 

The primary conflicts are going to be on the object for which there are AMB textures, but no environment mask. However, one very quick and ugly solution is to simply copy the specular map (the alpha channel from the normal map), and paste it into the environment mask texture. After that, simply paint over any non-metallic parts of the environment mask texture with black.

 

Also, apparently my mesh edits do work with some of the body mods, such as UNP. Yay.

[CaBaL]

mate....i did not realize at a first look... today took a closer look on your cubemaps.

 

in the name of the gods...DO NOT USE default envmaps.... create new ones give them proper names and point to THEM in nifs.... you're messing with the work of so many people you do not even realize:

amb wrp har and god knows whatelse....you chenged all cubemaps...any armor,even mine ore would reflect this change.

and the worst part .... your cubes are WRONG as hell....totally wrong...you tooka single cubemap...applied a color shift and it's supposed to work for any material?... the same map...?

 

do not misunderstand me... but this is not the way...actually... in a way or another installing shiny...even for a single armor even a single blade got to mess with any object ingame using that cube?not only.... if you include replacer for glass_e shiny bright_e, bronze _e i actually install a steel sword to see my glass or ebony weaponry totally changed?

 

i cannot believe you did not think about consequences -.-

are you kidding or what?