ACCEPTED aMidianBorn Caves and Mines (by CaBaL)

[phazer11]

Unlike Hectrols' date=' I believe this mod [i']does[/i] stay true to vanilla. I dont think it varies any more than Snow and Rocks or BoS, and that is my merely my assessment.

Sorry techangel I think the votes so far make a case against what I feel is improper reasoning on your part. If you look at most of the compares Cabals textures are much closer to current STEP than Beauty of Skyrim and in my personal opinion better. That is not to say the normals or UV maps couldn't be worked on but we're talking mostly about diffuse maps and normals here and as always Cabal has delivered.  That's my opinion take it for what you will.

[exploiteddna]

this mod doesnt have any relation to UV maps. UV maps are part of mesh files, that tell the mesh how to "wrap" the flat 2-dimensional texture around the 3-dimensional model. mostly any other time, 'maps' is referring to some type of texture. UV maps is the only exception :) (that i know of)

[TechAngel85]

 

and also my question....do we chose mod for how much they stick on vanilla appearence (in this case i'd understand SRO and the other texture tweak recomended) or we try to have something a bit more realistic and out of the box?

Cabal, to answer your question - STEP aims to enhance the visual aspect of Skyrim - but it also vows to stick to vanilla style of the game as much as possible. Purely from STEP point of view anything that is similar to vanilla would be better. This was the principle of this project since the very beginning. So quite often mods that look stunning would be ditched in favour of mods that may look worse, but are closer to vanilla graphical style.

 

Now, personally I installed Beauty of Skyrim, then I let Hectrol's overwrite that and lastly I added your mod on top of that. This way I get ALL your textures, but also BoS and Hectrol's for the ones your mod doesn't cover (yet?). I am sure that many users will also favour your mod to BoS, but - again - from STEP point of view this may be not the best choice.

yep...i know about the principle rootstrat... clearly always hope for an "out of the box "option...finding it more creative and way more interesting... but i know the step point of view :)

i agree without any problem bout the line, what blocked my digestion was angel's prospective (i'm kidding eh...better to remember this detail) which is simply unilateral. 

for respect for other modders i will not put my analisis here... but if we go on the tecnical matter  the list of things to write is long... about all the 3 mods.

angel cannot just end the discussion with his impressions (again hoping he's able to see the more and bigger problems on other textures sets)

is a comparison? let's compare then....otherwise is an opinion on a showcase.

hope noone get offended....i repeat that does change nothing for me if this or any mod of mine is added in core options...i'm not pulling in any direction...i'm just saying that analisis should be less fancy

 

Beauty of Skyrim had aready won the voting on the other thread and all my discussions about those mods that were included in that compare are included in the Hectrol thread. If you wish to know of my assessment on those mods, including BoS, you can head over there. I'm not going to repeat myself on mods that aren't even being discussed in this thread. With that said, I probably should have repeated myself regarding BoS for the sake that it is being discussed here. My train of thought was that the only member that visit these threads are the same ones that were a part of those compares, as well. Thus, they should know of my review of Beauty of Skyrim; however, I can repeat myself if need be regarding BoS here in this thread.

Unlike Hectrols' date=' I believe this mod [i']does[/i] stay true to vanilla. I dont think it varies any more than Snow and Rocks or BoS, and that is my merely my assessment.

Sorry techangel I think the votes so far make a case against what I feel is improper reasoning on your part. If you look at most of the compares Cabals textures are much closer to current STEP than Beauty of Skyrim and in my personal opinion better. That is not to say the normals or UV maps couldn't be worked on but we're talking mostly about diffuse maps and normals here and as always Cabal has delivered.  That's my opinion take it for what you will.

@Cabal and phazer11,

 

If you're read my post, my main issues was the graininess while "moving". Standing in place it's fine (thus it makes for great screenshots); however, as soon as I start moving about the "noise" is present. I shall make a video in the next couple of days to put this at rest so all can see what I am seeing from this mod.

 

With that said, if this one issue was fixed, I could safely say this mod has a very real possibility of being included in STEP. As long as the issue remains, I can't see it being added to STEP because the other compared mods did not produce this grainy/noisy effect while in motion.

[exploiteddna]

If you're read my post, my main issues was the graininess while "moving". Standing in place it's fine (thus it makes for great screenshots); however, as soon as I start moving about the "noise" is present. I shall make a video in the next couple of days to put this at rest so all can see what I am seeing from this mod.

 

With that said, if this one issue was fixed, I could safely say this mod has a very real possibility of being included in STEP. As long as the issue remains, I can't see it being added to STEP because the other compared mods did not produce this grainy/noisy effect while in motion.

i understand what you are describing. i just don't see it occurring. perhaps your eyes are more sensitive to this type of "effect" than mine are.. i mean, with hectrols i could definitely pick up something similar to what youre describing (even though it may not be exactly the same in this case) ... but i dont get any form of resemblance from this mod.  

If you were to guess, would you say this effect youre seeing is being primarily caused by the normal or diffuse maps ?? (i.e. if one were to "fix" it, which map would be the primary target?)

 

[Aiyen]

Also please do keep in mind if you are using any color correction that grainy looks can get washed out, or enhanced depending on the contrast settings, and lighting of that particular area.

 

Especially texture sharpening will amplify the effect if it is too aggressive.

[Guest]

I did have a look at these not long ago Tech and I'm sorry to say to Cabal, but I noticed exactly what you just said in your post. I once talked to a guy who used to work at Bizarre Creations (poor guy got made redundant) and he told me you should iron out all specular in your diffuse and let the normal map do all the work. It's okay for games like World of Warcraft, but modern games using normal maps shouldn't have it baked in. The reason is quite obvious why - it just looks fake because it generally is. 

 

And, yes I would expect caves to be more gunge-like and smooth. I think the more normal map specular sheen, the better in caves. Slimy! :) Alright maybe not that much. ;)

im a little bit confused, so was wondering if you may clarify.. when you say "iron out all specular in your diffuse and let the normal map do all the work" are you saying that speculars should be in diffuse maps and not normals (for "modern games" like skyrim) ??

Basically don't try and fake lighting in your diffuse. Cabal may have been trying to go for that specific look, but as me and Tech pointed out it made it sparkle a bit too much. That is what specular in normal maps are for. In older games it was fine because they probably didn't support normal maps and the lighting sucked. It's what I was personally told and I didn't question it after he showed me his work. ;) 

 

Hope that's clear now. :)

 

By the way, I love Italy Cabal. Nessun Dorma rocks. Everyone I know who has gone to stay with an Italian family says they like their food. Not sure if that's right though. :)

[CaBaL]

heheeh sparrow...believe me... i'm a 36 years old guy, italy was a stunning place up to 10-12 years ago , really full of culture and history, kind of credle of humanity in many aspect....roman empire ,reinassence....things that italians themselves forget now.

food is culture somehow... so well... probably some of the best food you can find around,not talking of restaurants with "standard" things, talking about families and small villages and traditions.

sadly lately wrong governaments,corruption,various problems ,economical situation do not let this country show all its potential.

what really bothers me is the loss of creativity ... ignorance among people,call it globalization or whatever you want but result is the same.

[rootsrat]

heheeh sparrow...believe me... i'm a 36 years old guy, italy was a stunning place up to 10-12 years ago , really full of culture and history, kind of credle of humanity in many aspect....roman empire ,reinassence....things that italians themselves forget now.

food is culture somehow... so well... probably some of the best food you can find around,not talking of restaurants with "standard" things, talking about families and small villages and traditions.

sadly lately wrong governaments,corruption,various problems ,economical situation do not let this country show all its potential.

what really bothers me is the loss of creativity ... ignorance among people,call it globalization or whatever you want but result is the same.

 

This is the case all over the globe unfortunately... But on the other hand there is a lot of good things happening, things that are not mainstreamed and never will be. This is a subject for a looooong discussion with as many outcomes, as there are opinions.

 

As for Italian food, there is a culinary BBC programme called "Two Greedy Italians", about 2 Italian chefs living in UK, and they go back to Italy and re-discover all those things you talk about, Cabal: they go around villages, look at traditional foods and bring out a lot of Italian culture in the process, while cooking really nice food :) Highly recommended!

[TechAngel85]

Also please do keep in mind if you are using any color correction that grainy looks can get washed out, or enhanced depending on the contrast settings, and lighting of that particular area.

 

Especially texture sharpening will amplify the effect if it is too aggressive.

The lighting I'm using is 100% vanilla because the profile is 100% STEP. There are no extra anythings (mods, adjustments, etc). Sparkle is a good way of describing it as well rather than grainy. I have capture some video and just need to put it together. Will get that done by sometime tomorrow.

[TechAngel85]

Well, that is frustrating. The detail is so fine within the game that I can't find a capture or encoding format sharp enough to maintain the detail in the image. Even with H26 1080p, you can barely see the detail of what I'm trying to capture. Even hooking it up to my flat screen TV didn't help to see the detail. I'd like a couple Admin to really jump in on this one. I'll PM Z and Farlo to see if they can take a look in-game and do a bit of testing before this is added.

[CaBaL]

angel, accept an advice from a friend, i get what u mean about grainy look, but u do not have to stick on the microdatails... "noise" is used to reduce the "pattern" effect... not only in these textures but in many enviromental works for many games from various author much better than me.

 

what imo you have to check is:

first the overall look and how much an enviromental texture looks proper and fitting to an enviroment.

second but probably more important... how much the enviromental textures is made up of proper "tiles" in this case you have to take a close look on how much repeatable patterns are visible ,somehow you should not see the tile because if u see a bounch of detail repeted too often...the texture is wrong ( noise reduces this effect quite a lot)...i'd prefer a more noisy pattern than a clean textures repeated as a chess board ...you may lose something Very close but the overall feeling is better (afterall who plays with player nose on rocks and walls?)

 

is very important to see where are the major lacks in beth work...for example shadows and lines baked and painted on diffuse maps that makes stones look like warped paper (let's be honest u cannot "paint" a shadow...it should be rendered from normal+specular not by a black line).

bad bad tiling in beth things is another big lack.

colors not really natural in bethesda ..both exasperate yellow and green ....remember? no photosyntesis in shadows... also funny how mountains are grey but caves yellow....i used a more brownish thing.grey+oxidation tends to brown.... (it's my taste,and my idea ,we're in the field of taste...useless somehow...still bath palette is wrong with too much yellow from any point of view).

 

to see major problems means also find solutions... because if we mod but keep also what is not good we're getting nowhere.

 

now ...in any comparison we should always see where's the problem in original work... and find which work fixes it better (not talking of these caves remakes..i mean in general)

 

*** simplyfing a lot things comparison should be: texture problem--->x mod fix---->y mod fix ***

 

first we need to recognize the problem itself btw.... not just think that beth is always right and what fits to beth is right too....we can be all Very close to beth intention and design running on different paths.

 

finally clear... anybody got his own opinion and taste.

 

but we cannot say....x is better than y because i do not like 2 things on y when x does not have these problem but also does not bring any solution .

 

a balanced analisis should keep the count of what we get and its "price"...is like betting on an horse: u can bet 0.5 cent and win 10 dollars or bet 1 dollar and get 100.000.

 

all this in general, not talking about these specifical modification... just using as example.

hope there's no problem or hate is just my humble opinion.

[Aiyen]

Okay decided to spend some time on this.

Tried it with my own ENB and imagespace modifiers etc. there they just fits in nicely! So properly gonna keep them!

 

However since this is STEP then I also did one with just vanilla and HDDLC optimized.

I do not see any glittering at all. Tried out in the bleak falls barrow end cavern... nothing that I would describe as a glitter, and it does have some rather huge lighting going on in vanilla. In fact it mostly falls in nicely with the HDDLC imo.

 

All testing is done at 1440p, using the 2k version of the mod. And no... I do not think (As in I have never seen any proof of any issues) that using 1k versions for interiors is required even if you have a card with 1Gb of VRAM or less so I did not bother testing that.

[TechAngel85]

To address you CaBal,

 

There are only two specific issues that I have with these textures that are either not present or not noticeable in the other textures compared. As far as coloring and realism you're very close to spot on and you're also correct that there is no real discernible "patten" in your textures. Here's the issues which I've documented in the shots.

 

Graininess / Noise in the Ground

 

Vanilla  >>  Snow & Rocks HD  >>  Beauty of Skyrim  >>  aMidianborn

 

https://i.imgur.com/rbgVFpT.jpg >> https://i.imgur.com/ooprFQr.jpg >> https://i.imgur.com/GzQiL5q.jpg

 

Shiny Green Stuff on the Walls

 

Vanilla  >>  Snow & Rocks HD  >>  Beauty of Skyrim  >>  aMidianborn

 

https://i.imgur.com/IKUeyhq.jpg >> https://i.imgur.com/zQbG9ej.jpg >> https://i.imgur.com/UsfUpB3.jpg

 

Yes, I am very analytical and picky when I do compares, but that's only because I want the best for STEP and the mass majority of users. Links to original images provided because STEP forum gallery is not robust enough to maintain quality. Used vanilla lighting in Helgen Keep with 2K textures.

[exploiteddna]

nice comparison, tech.. im sure that took a while to do. I do see pretty much everything you pointed out there (though sometimes i wasnt sure where your arrows were pointing.. and dont know what the little circles were for on the BoS ground texture). Very informative, glad to see you point out "problems" on all textures, rather than just cabals :D

Nice job

[TechAngel85]

The circles on BoS ground texture is pointing out patches of "noise". Arrows are to general areas except for the ground texture of aMidianborn which they are pointing to the shadows I spoke of that are making the rocks look embossed into the texture.

 

BoS is my choice texture because it has the least issues or at least the least visible while in-game (the issues are much more pronounced in Photoshop in all compared textures) while still being an improvement over Snow & Rocks HD.