DynDOLOD 3.00 Alpha 173

[sheson]

14 hours ago, ikonomov said:

For some reason the brightness control for Tree texture generation in TexGen 3.0 didn't have any affect for me, but I believe if it works with a bit of adjustment it might be possible to tone down the direct/ambient light in such a way to minimize this at least for the billboards.

If changing the brightness of textures seemingly does not have any effect in the game, you are either changing the wrong settings/billboard type or the updated billboards are not installed when generating LOD / updating the texture atlas.

You can emulate with TexGen what happens to the lighting of the full model when the sun is low: set direct light to maximum and ambient to minimum. Change Front/Back to either full left or fully right. You get really distinct dark and lit up pieces. The way this information makes it into the HD billboard is via the normal map.

Test if increasing the smoothness of the HD normal map texture of the HD billboads helps to lessen the effect in the game.

 

14 hours ago, ikonomov said:

Edit: I just checked the log from running DynDOLOD 2.x and I see meshes being used for LOD4, this should indicate Static LOD4 used, correct?

If the mentioned NIF is the 3D tree LOD model (typically has _lod in the filename) and not the full mode (typically does not have _lod in the filename)l.

 

8 hours ago, ikonomov said:

I was just trying to compare the billboard of TreePineForest05 between Indistinguishable and the one generated by TexGen 3.0.  It seems they are different.  Indistiguishable uses one .DDS file while TexGen 3.0 has created 4 just for this tree ...

It should be no surprise that billboards are different (manually screenshotted from NifSkope versus a high quality render of the current full model) or that billboards from mods do not contain any HD billboards e.g. front and side views and normal maps.

 

8 hours ago, ikonomov said:

... and when I open them they are mostly just black.  I'm using an older nvidia photoshop DDS plugin 8.55.0109.1800 downloaded before it required a subscription.  I imagine the intel plugin is even older and has even less chance of opening those files correctly.  I wish I can compare those files side by side and see where this highlight is coming from, though that isn't really going to be helping much.

The compression format of generated textures can be changed in TexGen at any time. Age is not a good indicator of supported formats. The Intel plugin can read/write BC7 for example.

If you believe the mip mapping of textures affects things, you can could test if removing them from the generated atlas textures ..\Textures\DynDOLOD\LOD\DynDOLOD_Tamriel.dds and Tamriel_n.dds helps.

[ikonomov]

OK.  I think I've found where I was wrong in the testing I did the other day when generating textures at various brightness settings.  I went back to 3.0 and generated textures again, but this time I set both direct and ambient at 0 for HD tree to make sure I'll clearly see the billboards in game.  I'm including screenshots of the settings I use just in case something is relevant.

Finally I saw the billboards!  They are black, and are really, really far away.  Previously I assumed that they are just beyond the loaded cell.  Then I learned of the Static LOD4.  But seeing how far the billboards are it must be then that Static LOD4 is what's in-betweeen the loaded cells and those far black billboards, correct?  The log says:
LOD4: Level0
LOD8: Billboard1 using internal
LOD16: Billboard1 using internal

If that's the case then the bright highlights must not be caused by the billboards, but by the Static LOD4, which I guess we have no control over in terms of brightness, correct?

I want to try the High settings, but changing the trees to use billboards in LOD4.  How can I go about doing this, would changing

LODGen42=tree,Static LOD4,Billboard,Billboard,Far LOD,Unchanged,1

to

LODGen42=tree,Billboard,Billboard,Billboard,Far LOD,Unchanged,1

in DynDOLOD_SSE_high.ini do the trick, or do I need so change something else?

Edited February 23, 2021 by ikonomov

[sheson]

48 minutes ago, ikonomov said:

Finally I saw the billboards!  They are black, and are really, really far away.  Previously I assumed that they are just beyond the loaded cell.  Then I learned of the Static LOD4.  But seeing how far the billboards are it must be then that Static LOD4 is what's in-betweeen the loaded cells and those far black billboards, correct?  The log says:
LOD4: Level0
LOD8: Billboard1 using internal
LOD16: Billboard1 using internal

If that's the case then the bright highlights must not be caused by the billboards, but by the Static LOD4, which I guess we have no control over in terms of brightness, correct?

I want to try the High settings, but changing the trees to use billboards in LOD4.  How can I go about doing this, would changing

LODGen42=tree,Static LOD4,Billboard,Billboard,Far LOD,Unchanged,1

to

LODGen42=tree,Billboard,Billboard,Billboard,Far LOD,Unchanged,1

in DynDOLOD_SSE_high.ini do the trick, or do I need so change something else?

Yes, those first settings mean the billboards are only used in LOD 8 and 16. The distance of where LOD level 4 end and LOD level 8 starts is controlled by fBlockLevel0Distance.

If you set Billboard1 for LOD level 4, then they will immediately start showing beyond the loaded cells. You can edit the ini  (Billboard = Billboard1) if you like, but typically you would edit the rule in the advanced options and save the preset. 

There is currently no settings that can change LOD models. As such 3D tree LOD models are object LOD models. Atm the only way to change anything about them is to edit the LOD models.

The 3D tree LOD models uses the full models leafs copied 1:1, so whatever you are seeing happens because the LOD shader is a limited subset of the full tree shader.

With a lot of time and NifSkope and experimenting with a couple shader settings or maybe manually editing normal vectors with Blender/3DSMax it might be possible to make the tree LOD a bit less susceptible to low sun directions.

One way to make a shape in a model darker is to use vertex colors.

[ikonomov]

5 hours ago, sheson said:

With a lot of time and NifSkope and experimenting with a couple shader settings or maybe manually editing normal vectors with Blender/3DSMax it might be possible to make the tree LOD a bit less susceptible to low sun directions.

One way to make a shape in a model darker is to use vertex colors.

I just re-run TexGen and DynDOLOD with LOD4 set to Billboards and also LOD4 set to Static LOD4 but without using HD/Ultra trees.  There doesn't seem to be much difference in the trees at LOD4 between Billboards and non Ultra.  The highlights were gone in both cases, just like when using 2.x, but undoubtedly the Ultra trees are higher quality.

I guess it's time to play in NifSkope and check what's possible to do changing shader settings and vertex colors.  A quick question, if I find something that might actually make some difference, would such changes be possible to automate with DynDOLOD with an added setting for some variable in the models that can be changed with NifSkope?

Edit: Also in Data\Meshes\DynDOLOD\lod\trees treepineforest05 for example has three different .nif files in different folders.  Which is the model that I should be testing on for Ultra trees?

Edit2: Ehh, I think it might be best to just accept things as they are.  It must be from the limited LOD shader.  If all that is possible is making the model darker, even being able to affect sections of the models is just not a good solution because under different lighting the darkened parts will look wrong...

If only Bethesda gave us the direct/ambient control for that LOD that you've implemented for the billboards XD

Edited February 24, 2021 by ikonomov

[ikonomov]

I'm really sorry for wasting two pages here.  I noticed this lighting issue so I thought it could be something that might be improved if I reported it.

[sheson]

9 hours ago, ikonomov said:

I just re-run TexGen and DynDOLOD with LOD4 set to Billboards and also LOD4 set to Static LOD4 but without using HD/Ultra trees.  There doesn't seem to be much difference in the trees at LOD4 between Billboards and non Ultra.  The highlights were gone in both cases, just like when using 2.x, but undoubtedly the Ultra trees are higher quality.

I guess it's time to play in NifSkope and check what's possible to do changing shader settings and vertex colors.  A quick question, if I find something that might actually make some difference, would such changes be possible to automate with DynDOLOD with an added setting for some variable in the models that can be changed with NifSkope?

Edit: Also in Data\Meshes\DynDOLOD\lod\trees treepineforest05 for example has three different .nif files in different folders.  Which is the model that I should be testing on for Ultra trees?

Edit2: Ehh, I think it might be best to just accept things as they are.  It must be from the limited LOD shader.  If all that is possible is making the model darker, even being able to affect sections of the models is just not a good solution because under different lighting the darkened parts will look wrong...

If only Bethesda gave us the direct/ambient control for that LOD that you've implemented for the billboards XD

You know which LOD model to edit by checking the DynDOLOD_SSE_Tree_Report.txt, with vanilla trees it would meshes\dyndolod\lod\trees\treepineforest05passthru_lod.nif

That's why I mentioned Blender/3DSMax. It might be necessary to only adjust specific triangle, vertices so not to disturb other parts of the tree.

You might as well just try a different full model/LOD model from one of the many tree mods just for those couple trees to see if they fit your taste.

[ikonomov]

8 hours ago, sheson said:

That's why I mentioned Blender/3DSMax. It might be necessary to only adjust specific triangle, vertices so not to disturb other parts of the tree.

You might as well just try a different full model/LOD model from one of the many tree mods just for those couple trees to see if they fit your taste.

I just made all vertex colors of the mesh to black just to test what effect it'll have.  It doesn't seem to change the trees at all in-game.  I tried editing the other two .nif files for that tree model just to make sure.  I made an autohotkey script so it didn't take long to change all colors to black in NifSkape.  I wonder if the limited shader at LOD4 simply ignores those colors.  I'm attaching the edited .nifs.  Do you have any other explanation for this?  If the game simply ignores those vertex colors at LOD4 I think we have an explanation why the trees don't reflect the light properly at that distance.  I'm thinking, if that's the case maybe a possible solution could be creating separate textures to be used by those lod meshes which could be edited to make the highlights darker.

Finally if we are hopeless to control the lighting with the Ultra trees I have to say that although a bit distracting, I think I've found a way to fool my vision into seeing something else.  Behold, Larch trees!  I think I'll give Flora Overhaul trees another try as well.  I'm really curious how they'll look with Ultra tree LODs.  The only reason I didn't stick with this mod years ago was because it makes the forests a bit dense, making it harder to spot enemies, but I guess that's realistic.

treepineforest05passthru_lod.nif treepineforest05_C36DC7D1passthru_lod.nif treepineforest05_0DAEF807passthru_lod.nif

[sheson]

1 hour ago, ikonomov said:

I just made all vertex colors of the mesh to black just to test what effect it'll have.  It doesn't seem to change the trees at all in-game.  I tried editing the other two .nif files for that tree model just to make sure.  I made an autohotkey script so it didn't take long to change all colors to black in NifSkape.  I wonder if the limited shader at LOD4 simply ignores those colors.  I'm attaching the edited .nifs.  Do you have any other explanation for this?  If the game simply ignores those vertex colors at LOD4 I think we have an explanation why the trees don't reflect the light properly at that distance.  I'm thinking, if that's the case maybe a possible solution could be creating separate textures to be used by those lod meshes which could be edited to make the highlights darker.

Finally if we are hopeless to control the lighting with the Ultra trees I have to say that although a bit distracting, I think I've found a way to fool my vision into seeing something else.  Behold, Larch trees!  I think I'll give Flora Overhaul trees another try as well.  I'm really curious how they'll look with Ultra tree LODs.  The only reason I didn't stick with this mod years ago was because it makes the forests a bit dense, making it harder to spot enemies, but I guess that's realistic.

 

treepineforest05passthru_lod.nif 8.89 kB · 0 downloads treepineforest05_C36DC7D1passthru_lod.nif 8.99 kB · 0 downloads treepineforest05_0DAEF807passthru_lod.nif 8.89 kB · 0 downloads

The game does not ignore vertex colors. If something does not show up in the game, it was not installed/used when generating LOD or the generated LOD is not installed.

This is what I get with your treepineforest05passthru_lod.nif

[ikonomov]

4 minutes ago, sheson said:

The game does not ignore vertex colors. If something does not show up in the game, it was not installed/used when generating LOD or the generated LOD is not installed.

I changed the .nif directly in the data folder, then tried to see a difference in-game.  I assume I need to re-run DynDOLOD then?

Edited February 24, 2021 by ikonomov

[sheson]

2 minutes ago, ikonomov said:

I changed the .nif directly in the data folder, then tried to see a difference in-game.  I assume I need to re-run DynDOLOD then?

Object LOD needs to generated again so the new LOD models are being used when generating the BTO files. Executing LODGen in expert mode will suffice if nothing else changed

[ikonomov]

Got it.  It's interesting to see from your screenshot that the highlights in the other trees trees don't seem as strong and obvious as it is in my game.  It looks like you are using some kind of weather mod or ENB, correct?  I wonder if that might be another solution for me, to just try a weather mod or ENB.

[sheson]

Just now, ikonomov said:

Got it.  It's interesting to see from your screenshot that the highlights in the other trees trees don't seem as strong and obvious as it is in my game.  It looks like you are using some kind of weather mod or ENB, correct?  I wonder if that might be another solution for me, to just try a weather mod or ENB.

Vanilla, with test weather 15e. Time is noon, so the sun shining from top is probably the key.

[ikonomov]

OK.  After some testing I think I've come up with something interesting.  Rather than editing individual vertices, using an autohotkey script I modified the three RGB values for all of them with 0.8 multiplier.  Similar to my small brightness modification to the grass, I am seeing a much better transition between the full model and the Static LOD4.  The model should get progressively darker as it gets closer, hopefully without big jumps in brightness, and with the current 0.8 it doesn't seem to be much change, so perhaps 0.9 or 0.85 might be better.  Most importantly, however, the highlights are not as obvious and distracting.  This tree was the most distracting before, but now the other ones are the ones that stand out having "burned out" or yellow needles.  I'm attaching the .nif if you like to see.

I wonder, is this something that can be automated during DynDOLOD generation?  To have an RGB modifier for all vertices.  In my own game if I'm going to keep this change, I'll have to apply it to all trees I think in order to have all of them have similar brightness.  With the autohotkey script I think I can do it in a reasonable amount of time, but I'm thinking that if this was possible during DynDOLOD generation it can benefit different builds with other trees as well.

treepineforest05passthru_lod.nif

Edited February 25, 2021 by ikonomov

[ikonomov]

I'm attaching a version with 0.9 modifier.  In my game it definitely looks to be an improvement.  Especially when those trees are in front of some darker background the highlights really stand out and look unnatural.  As small of an adjustment as this is, it seems to help make those highlights looking more natural.  I'm not sure if the trunk is a billboard, but if it is it still looks part of the tree being already very dark.  In the autohotkey script I have to run a loop for the number of vertices, but suspect it won't take that long to change it for all trees.  Are all the used tree lod meshes in the main folder Data\Meshes\DynDOLOD\lod\trees, or the subfolders as well?  Hopefully it can be done in DynDOLOD generation, but at least now I know how I can fix the problem in my game.

treepineforest05passthru_lod.nif

Edited February 25, 2021 by ikonomov

[sheson]

1 hour ago, ikonomov said:

I'm attaching a version with 0.9 modifier.  In my game it definitely looks to be an improvement.  Especially when those trees are in front of some darker background the highlights really stand out and look unnatural.  As small of an adjustment as this is, it seems to help make those highlights looking more natural.  I'm not sure if the trunk is a billboard, but if it is it still looks part of the tree being already very dark.  In the autohotkey script I have to run a loop for the number of vertices, but suspect it won't take that long to change it for all trees.  Are all the used tree lod meshes in the main folder Data\Meshes\DynDOLOD\lod\trees, or the subfolders as well?  Hopefully it can be done in DynDOLOD generation, but at least now I know how I can fix the problem in my game.

The problem is to programmatically target only the leafs, but not the 2D or 3D trunks of tree LOD models at the same time, while leaving other object LOD models alone. Also not all models require being modified. Maybe just a few select LOD models always need to be modified. In the end a LOD model should only require to be created once and should work for every occasion, just like the 3D LOD models for buildings or rocks. The tree LOD models included in Alpha 3 are combined from two resources as explained in the manual, maybe that step just needs a feature to avoid manual editing. I  have been pondering over such an feature for  quite some time. We will see.

I sort all 3D tree LOD models included in DynDOLOD Resources into meshes\DynDOLOD\trees. The models for the vanilla trees are all in the main folder.