TESTING Icy Mesh Remaster (by Bionic)

[DoubleYou]

Discussion topic:
Icy Mesh Remaster by Bionic
Wiki Link

---

It looks like someone finally fixed these ugly meshes.

[z929669]

This looks like a really good one to consider.

[Mousetick]

I've been using this for a while without issues, there have been many updates since it was released. It looks good to me and I like it. It includes custom LOD models and supports Just Ice out of the box. Works great with DynDOLOD.

There are many options to choose from. I've been using 'High Poly Consistency' full meshes, 'Low Poly' LOD meshes, 'Icy Fixes Full' plugin, 'Icy Fixes High Poly Backlight' meshes, 'Just Ice - Less Dark' brightness.

I haven't tried any of the partitioned stuff (to prevent light flickering), or the icy caves meshes, which were WIP and incomplete for a long time but are now apparently finished.

Notes:

• I'm using Simplicity of Snow rather than Better Dynamic Snow. This mod comes with a patch for compatibility with BDS, I don't know if it's any good.
• Probably obvious, but just in case: Mutually exclusive with Glaciers LOD Meshes. This mod does the same thing and a lot more.

[ButchDiavolo]

Adding my voice to start a chorus with Mousetick: I have been using this for quite some time as well (I somehow thought this was already in the STEP list... oops?)

I use the same options as Mousetick, except I use high poly LOD meshes and the partitioned stuff as well. I have never noticed any light flickering. And over all it looks very good indeed.

[z929669]

Tagged for testing

[z929669]

Installing the FOMOD is quite confusing, especially in terms of LOD with references to enigmatic 'full'/'lite' plugins, and Nexus Description doesn't help. The only way to see what it's doing is to look at the FOMOD XML ... what a PITA. Even then, I need to install each option just to check it in xEdit to decode this enigma. The plugin names referenced in the FOMOD don't correspond to what I'm seeing in the XML, and I've no clue if 'ESL' is ESPFE or actually ESL.

It's also clear that the MA doesn't entirely understand what sorts of plugins to use or how to explain them to the user.

My guess is that you guys installed an earlier version before all of this confusion.

---

Actually, I've run out of patience. I just don't have the time to go down this rabbit hole right now. I'll just wait for the update, as there's no way the current state of the FOMOD or mod Description can last, IMO.

[Mousetick]

I'm still using an older version (2.0) and haven't updated in a while. I've been watching the updates as they come, and waiting a bit until the dust settles

The 'ESL' I looked at in the current version are lite masters (ESL + ESM). The 'ESP' are full patch plugins (not ESL, not ESM).

[z929669]

5 hours ago, Mousetick said:

I'm still using an older version (2.0) and haven't updated in a while. I've been watching the updates as they come, and waiting a bit until the dust settles

The 'ESL' I looked at in the current version are lite masters (ESL + ESM). The 'ESP' are full patch plugins (not ESL, not ESM).

The ESLs I checked so far from this mod are straight up light masters using ESL extension (obviously) and ESL flag. No ESM flag.

Likewise, the ESMs are just that, and the ESPs are just regular old ESPs so no ESPFEs (light plugins) so far. (I prefer ESPFE where possible so LO behaves as expected for standard plugins)

I asked about it on the Nexus page and got back some useful info. I'll be opting for the ESL probably.

Quote

IceLOD.esl/esp plugin:
 adds lods to icicles and expands upon existing ones.

IMRPatchForVanillaAndBDS.esl plugin:
changes static object data by altering snow shader to enable multilayered parallax on meshes.

Partitioned snow meshes.esl/esp plugin:
adds new separate meshes for areas that use projected textures on snowdrifts.

ProjectedGlacierSnow.esl/esp plugin:
makes changes to projected snow to reduce the amount of vertical stretching.

IcyFixes.esm plugin:
Makes worldspace changes by adding backlighting meshes for some models in the ocean. Removes snow flags from meshes with snow. add missing snow on some of the placed objects by swapping them into their snow model. 

IcyFixesLite.esm plugin:
same as IcyFixes except doesn't add backlighting meshes.

IceShaderDisabled.esl plugin: 
disables iceshader01.

Lod Patches:
If you're using the extended lod option and one of the supported ice retextures then you'll need one of the patches that is provided in the mod or optionally you can create your own. with an easy simple guide I posted on the sticky notes.

 

[DoubleYou]

Depending on if only lods are impacted by the plugin, DynDOLOD likely renders the plugin as completely unnecessary. There should be little if any advantage to using esl vs espfe in this case, so esl will be optimal if it is even required. 

[Mousetick]

5 hours ago, z929669 said:

The ESLs I checked so far from this mod are straight up light masters using ESL extension (obviously) and ESL flag. No ESM flag.

Likewise, the ESMs are just that, and the ESPs are just regular old ESPs so no ESPFEs (light plugins) so far. (I prefer ESPFE where possible so LO behaves as expected for standard plugins)

You're making things more complicated than they are. ESL extension implies ESL+ESM, the ESL and ESM flags in this case are redundant and unnecessary.

You'd want to use the ESL variant for all plugins, except IcyFixesFull which is provided only as ESM. The non-lite ESP variants, when available, are provided for VR users.

I agree however the FOMOD installer is a confusing mess:

• LOD plugin options are presented first, while they depend on choice of IcyFixes options that are made later in the installation.
• We don't know if 'ESL' is a flag or an extension, so we don't know if those 'ESL' plugins are lite masters or ESPFE.
• The choice of IcyFixes plugins make no sense, with mention of large references that are irrelevant to the variations, ability to uninstall mid-game which is also irrelevant, and the 'Full' version not being offered in a lite variant, even though it's technically ok to ESLify it. 

I think the MA is a great 3D designer but may not be totally up to snuff on the finer points of master vs. patch plugins and full vs. lite plugins, or the implications with regards to large refs, or what can/can't be safely uninstalled mid-game.

I have no idea what the LOD plugins do, I haven't looked at them, they don't exist in the version I'm using.

I ESLified the IcyFixes 'Full' ESM plugin because it doesn't need to occupy a full plugin slot, there is no reason it can't be ESLified and I don't know why the MA seems to believe it shouldn't.

[z929669]

3 hours ago, Mousetick said:

You're making things more complicated than they are. ESL extension implies ESL+ESM, the ESL and ESM flags in this case are redundant and unnecessary.

You'd want to use the ESL variant for all plugins, except IcyFixesFull which is provided only as ESM. The non-lite ESP variants, when available, are provided for VR users.

I agree however the FOMOD installer is a confusing mess:

• LOD plugin options are presented first, while they depend on choice of IcyFixes options that are made later in the installation.
• We don't know if 'ESL' is a flag or an extension, so we don't know if those 'ESL' plugins are lite masters or ESPFE.
• The choice of IcyFixes plugins make no sense, with mention of large references that are irrelevant to the variations, ability to uninstall mid-game which is also irrelevant, and the 'Full' version not being offered in a lite variant, even though it's technically ok to ESLify it. 

I think the MA is a great 3D designer but may not be totally up to snuff on the finer points of master vs. patch plugins and full vs. lite plugins, or the implications with regards to large refs, or what can/can't be safely uninstalled mid-game.

I have no idea what the LOD plugins do, I haven't looked at them, they don't exist in the version I'm using.

I ESLified the IcyFixes 'Full' ESM plugin because it doesn't need to occupy a full plugin slot, there is no reason it can't be ESLified and I don't know why the MA seems to believe it shouldn't.

Yes, I'm probably making things more complicated than they are, but likely as a result of the assets themselves (and the installation) being tremendously overcomplicated. I'm just saying that the plugin extensions and flags seem arbitrary, and I agree that this mod likely only needs a single ESP (probably flagged ESL, which I think VR can also use).

9 hours ago, DoubleYou said:

Depending on if only lods are impacted by the plugin, DynDOLOD likely renders the plugin as completely unnecessary. There should be little if any advantage to using esl vs espfe in this case, so esl will be optimal if it is even required. 

I haven't checked if the LOD-related plugin records are redundant, but if not, I can see no reason why their changes can't be merged into the at-this-point-theoretical single plugin to rule them all.

I'm just going to install IcyFixes.esm and IceLODFull.esl and will experiment with IceShaderDisabled.esp and ProjectedGlacierSnow.esl to see what impact they have. I'll mess with the FOMOD to see what options give the final result, but I suspect it may soon become obsolete if others begin expressing similar problems with using the FOMOD.

There's also the question of the Cathedral Landscapes optional file and why it's not also incorporated into the FOMOD (in fact, since the FOMOD exists, there should be a single Main File rather than 2 Main and 2 Optional Files)

[Mousetick]

3 hours ago, z929669 said:

There's also the question of the Cathedral Landscapes optional file

You can ignore that. They are LOD textures for CL ice textures. STEP is using Just Ice ice textures, so instead pick FOMOD > LOD Patches > Just Ice.

3 hours ago, z929669 said:

and why it's not also incorporated into the FOMOD

Good question.

[z929669]

So I've done some initial exploration of the plugins in relation to LOD. First, I used my 'minimal' Step-vanilla profile (basically, only runtime mods and DynDOLOD Resources/DLL installed). Then I generated all LOD for that, renaming the DynDOLOD plugins to DynDOLOD_1.*.

Next, I disabled all LODGen mods and repeated this whole process but with IMR installed basically as I described previously. I did not rename the DynDOLOD plugins this time, so I can see with and without IMR.

Now I'm not at all certain how exactly to interpret the outcome, but a few facts can be gleaned from this comparison. Maybe you guys can glean more than me from this:

Most records in IceLODFull.esl are not incorporated into the DynDOLOD patches, and this plugin only provides a small number of 'static' records. Lastly, based on my work with Enhanced Mountain Rocks, plugin records are not needed to define LOD. The NIF shape names are used by DynDOLOD to assign LOD, IIRC (so I don't think most of these LOD mesh assignments are really doing anything, but IDK for sure):

 

This demonstrates that without IMR, DynDOLOD otherwise incorporates this record (remember that IMR plugins were not present when this DynDOLOD_1 plugin was constructed). Also, notice that IceLODFull.esl steps on IceFixes.esm, and the former forwards the USSEP record with it's own LOD assignments, while the latter has unique Object Bounds.:

 

Here's an example of where the IceLODFull.esl record IS being incorporated into the DynDOLOD patch, but in all cases, they are Iceberg* Editor IDs sourced from IceFixes.esm being the 'master':

 

Anything else I can share that anyone wants to see from this? My only take away is same as previous. I would eliminate all these plugins by merging them together into IceFixes.esP ESL-flagged variants (with the exception of the BDS/vanilla 'fix' plugin).

[DoubleYou]

The author shouldn't be using a plugin to assign the lod models. He should be naming them according to DynDOLOD's defined naming standards for DynDOLOD to pick them up and use them automatically. You would need my spreadsheet to verify whether or not DynDOLOD will actually use those lod models as it currently stands. I am not familiar with how exactly DynDOLOD handles a case like this.

[z929669]

23 hours ago, DoubleYou said:

The author shouldn't be using a plugin to assign the lod models. He should be naming them according to DynDOLOD's defined naming standards for DynDOLOD to pick them up and use them automatically. You would need my spreadsheet to verify whether or not DynDOLOD will actually use those lod models as it currently stands. I am not familiar with how exactly DynDOLOD handles a case like this.

As explained in the DynDOLOD MA documentation, I think the most efficient way to tell DynDOLOD to assign LOD to a given base object for this mod, what I think is needed is ...

• Base record with path to model - Exist in IcyFixes*.es* for this mod
• LOD model with name prefix corresponding to base record model (preferably in /meshes/DynDOLOD/ for highest priority [or include CRC32 for absolute 1:1 specificity]) - These are provided by the mod under /meshes/lod/ and LOD model shape names match full model shape names on spot check of one example
• Rules for base objects undefined in vanilla or DynDOLOD - for this mod, presumably the following Editor IDs referenced in IceLODFull.esl:
  • GlacierEndLg01BackLight
  • IcebergLargeBackLight
  • IcebergLedge01BackLight
  • IcebergSmall01BackLight
  • IcebergSmall02BackLight
  • GlacierPillarLg01BackLight

Rules File - The mod could use use IcyFixes.esm|l - ESL-flagged and/or .esl extension for all users except those upgrading from previous versions due to renumbered Form IDs and .esm extension but NOT ESL-flagged for users upgrading from previous non-ESL-flagged version <-- Changed due to Mousetick's input in post following:

File Name(s): /DynDOLOD/DynDOLOD_SSE_icyfixesesp_[high|medium|low].ini - Following is 'high'. Rules would differ slightly for med/low

[Skyrim LODGen]
LODGen1=IcyFixes.esp;0000AA0C,Level0,Level0,Level1,none,FarLOD,Unchanged,1,Icy Mesh Remaster - high
LODGen2=IcyFixes.esp;0000AA0D,Level0,Level0,Level1,none,FarLOD,Unchanged,1,Icy Mesh Remaster - high
LODGen3=IcyFixes.esp;0000AA0E,Level0,Level0,Level1,none,FarLOD,Unchanged,1,Icy Mesh Remaster - high
LODGen4=IcyFixes.esp;0000AA0F,Level0,Level0,Level1,none,FarLOD,Unchanged,1,Icy Mesh Remaster - high
LODGen5=IcyFixes.esp;0000AA10,Level0,Level0,Level1,none,FarLOD,Unchanged,1,Icy Mesh Remaster - high
LODGen6=IcyFixes.esp;0000AA11,Level0,Level0,Level1,none,FarLOD,Unchanged,1,Icy Mesh Remaster - high

 

Since the textures used by this mod can be from any number of supported mods (e.g., GlacierSlab.dds), the LOD should conform to these. DynDOLOD can create the LOD textures from the full ones per standards, thereby obviating any need for the MA to provide the LOD variants and the user the error-prone task of selecting the correct ones in the FOMOD for their build. <-- Again as pointed out by Mousetick in a subsequent post, not all users will use DynDOLOD, so it's not so simple; however, the LOD models could all use a SINGLE texture rather than multiples of the same texture under different texture names, which does cause uneeded texture bloat and maintenance overhead. For just one LOD patch there's lots of redundancy. Given there are several LOD patches, most of the textures can be scrapped if LOD models are updated to use a single path:

 

File Name: /DynDOLOD/DynDOLOD_SSE_TexGen_noalpha_icyfixesesp.txt

 

-3	1	1	1	textures\landscape\glacierslab.dds	2	2	0	0	textures\lod\glacierslablod.dds	2	2

 

... there's probably other textures used by meshes in the other 5 records, but I haven't checked them all, and it's this piece that I'm less certain about in terms of the 'ideal' values and whether all should be 'noalpha'.

 

Aside from all that^, I think ...

• IcyFixes.esm can be changed to IcyFixes.esp (ESPFE) - should work for SSE and SSE-VR Confirmed ESM is best for this mod. Likewise IcyFixesLite.es* all seem valid (but FOMOD could provide context for ESL-flagged .esm or .esl extension vs not flagged .esm extension).
• IceLODFull.es* can be removed
• IceShaderDisabled.esl, ProjectedGlacierSnow.esl, and Partitioned snow meshes.esl could be merged into IcyFixes.esp (MA's discretion, but it seems like these should apply to all users ... if not, then different versions of IcyFixes.esp could be used)

Result = drastically simplified FOMOD and asset management for both MA and user + fewer installation mistakes + lower support/maintenance overhead (no need to update this mod when supported mods are updated)

 

@sheson Do I have this right? See previous posts for context and OP for URL to mod in question.

 

The more we can help MAs proficient in graphic art but lacking in knowledge of plugins and DynDOLOD, the better for everyone.