Cleaning the Skyrim SE DLC ESMs + Update.esm

[TechAngel85]

It should be noted that several authors/users seem to have changed views from the "norm" of cleaning the master, under the scrutiny of the xEdit cleaning process and issues cropping up with it (I can not cite but have talked to a few privately.) Though, this does seem to be a more recent development with xEdit; cropping up every couple of months this year.

 

I think in summary from the AFK Mods discussion...

Trying to look at this unbiasedly, it seems it's really not going to matter in regards to cleaning the master files, but mods should always be cleaned unless otherwise noted by their authors. That's what I got from boiling out the passionately overstated views from the heat-of-the-moment discussion. Oh...and more confirmation that UPs should always be used because they fix things people!

[theblackman]

It should be noted that several authors/users seem to have changed views from the "norm" of cleaning the master, under the scrutiny of the xEdit cleaning process and issues cropping up with it (I can not cite but have talked to a few privately.) Though, this does seem to be a more recent development with xEdit; cropping up every couple of months this year.

Actually I'm not sure the 'norm' was ever the quite the 'norm' we assumed it was.  This is the thread (2017) that prompted me to investigate this issue more closely, specifically DoctorKaizeld's comment: "kinda a well-known thing that you don't clean master files".  Note that they are specifically referring to LE, not SE, but that doesn't really matter in this context.

 

GrantSP (2018) reaches a similar conclusion here after discussion with other mod authors although he admits "there may be some small benefit for Skyrim to do so".

 

Then there's the anecdotal reports, some linked below:

One

Two

Three

 

 

I think in summary from the AFK Mods discussion...

Trying to look at this unbiasedly, it seems it's really not going to matter in regards to cleaning the master files, but mods should always be cleaned unless otherwise noted by their authors. That's what I got from boiling out the passionately overstated views from the heat-of-the-moment discussion. Oh...and more confirmation that UPs should always be used because they fix things people!

The AFKMods discussion was bemusing to me when I first read it when I was researching this as I read Arthmoor's most recent comment to not clean the masters before I read that thread where he is passionately disagreeing with Mator and recommending they be cleaned.

 

Anyway, as we now know that cleaning can cause issues and since we appear to not have any cases of issues caused by using uncleaned masters (assuming correct use of patches), I would say that's fairly conclusive.

 

[DoubleYou]

See the post above and relevant discussion. Given the nature of large reference bugs, this is an extremely valid reason to clean all the Bethesda masters, regardless of the previous discussion. Large Reference bugs are well documented as causing flickering as well as other graphical issues, and without cleaning them, or patching them (a lot of needless work), these glitches will prevail. This is especially more important with the new AE Creation Club content. I am therefore recommending we continue to advise and instruct users of our guides to clean these.

[z929669]

1 hour ago, DoubleYou said:

See the post above and relevant discussion. Given the nature of large reference bugs, this is an extremely valid reason to clean all the Bethesda masters, regardless of the previous discussion. Large Reference bugs are well documented as causing flickering as well as other graphical issues, and without cleaning them, or patching them (a lot of needless work), these glitches will prevail. This is especially more important with the new AE Creation Club content. I am therefore recommending we continue to advise and instruct users of our guides to clean these.

I agree. That's why I cleaned all of them in my setup (contrary to our recently revised recommendations). I posted about this on our Discord.

I just cringe at the thought of supporting this and adding back those instructions, but it may be wise to do so.

[KatCut]

So should I clean my master files or not?

[DoubleYou]

1 hour ago, KatCut said:

So should I clean my master files or not?

For Skyrim Special Edition, yes, clean them.

[theblackman]

Just keeping this topic updated for those interested; note showler's comment here and excerpted:

"It goes back and forth. Not too long ago the problem of disappearing floors in Apocrypha came up, so "don't clean" was the advice. Then xEdit was updated to avoid the issue and "do clean" became the advice again."

[DoubleYou]

Yes, and FYI, we are currently not cleaning them for Fallout 4, since they don't have the Large References bugs and the current word is to not clean them. It seems this just gets very nuanced as time goes on, and likely should be evaluated on a per-game and perhaps even a per-plugin basis in case bugs are found.

[theblackman]

48 minutes ago, DoubleYou said:

Yes, and FYI, we are currently not cleaning them for Fallout 4, since they don't have the Large References bugs and the current word is to not clean them. It seems this just gets very nuanced as time goes on, and likely should be evaluated on a per-game and perhaps even a per-plugin basis in case bugs are found.

I'm sure if someone did some structured, methodical testing we could firm up some conclusions based on the results but who would do that when making mods and playing the games is much more fun.

Edited August 26, 2022 by theblackman

[DoubleYou]

Well, the xEdit team does do this. But they are just as susceptible to producing bugs just as anyone is. 

[theblackman]

34 minutes ago, DoubleYou said:

Well, the xEdit team does do this. But they are just as susceptible to producing bugs just as anyone is. 

I don't quite follow.  Discovering under what conditions the errors are reliably produced is the aim of testing.  More or less.

[DoubleYou]

35 minutes ago, theblackman said:

I don't quite follow.  Discovering under what conditions the errors are reliably produced is the aim of testing.  More or less.

I see bugs reported and fixed on the xEdit Discord as they are found. The RE authors will input as well, as there are bugs in the base game that sometimes causes the issues. The games are very buggy to begin with, and many bugs require very specific steps to reproduce.

[theblackman]

44 minutes ago, DoubleYou said:

The games are very buggy to begin with, and many bugs require very specific steps to reproduce.

Given how easy it is to muck things up in the CK and not realise it and then save the esp and not be warned about any potential issue, it's not surprising.  Developing in the CK and then moving to something like UE, it's not difficult to understand why it takes Beth so long to make games and why there's so many bugs happy little accidents.

[Mercury71]

The Wrye Bash team seem to start leaning towards not cleaning the masters.

https://github.com/wrye-bash/wrye-bash/wiki/[dev]-OFST

In latest wip-build for Wrye Bash there is a new option to "ignore dirty vanilla plugins (DLCs & CC content)"

A topic is also started at the Loot team for a similar function https://github.com/loot/loot/issues/1828

I have no knowledge in this but it is an interesting topic to follow. Clean all, dont clean, clean only cc.

(i am ofc doing as the STEP Guide states)

[DoubleYou]

Thanks for that. It is worth noting that all known issues are currently fixed in latest xEdit autoclean. It is, as stated in the LOOT issue, that there is the possibility of other issues not yet reported that may be caused by cleaning.