Abandoned Mods

[moho25]

I want to quote the post that began this discussion:

 

Can someone please tell me what would be stopping anyone from simply taking someone else's old abandoned mod that you want to update, and uploading it somewhere else besides the Nexus for people to download? (but still giving them credit/their name on it/etc)

If you think that there is nothing ethically or morally wrong with that, which there really isn't, then who cares? Honestly?
If there's some guy that made a cool mod years ago but is a jerk that says he doesn't want anyone to update it for SSE, what is he going to do to stop me? If there is some other dude who made an awesome mod years ago but hasn't been active for years and his mods need updating...what is he going to do if I update his mods for other people to enjoy?

I've just honestly really never understood this...if you do not agree with the parlor view of modding, then don't honor it. Simple.

If the Nexus doesn't want you to upload updated versions of someone else's mods, then upload it to one of the literally thousands of data hosting sites that don't have a problem with it. Simple.

 

EDIT: Removing post text makes no sense if it is quoted on a following post ... I replaced the missing text in this post to make the topic easier to follow.

 

There is not a mod creator alive that wouldn't find this post horribly abrasive (there's always an exception to the rule, but you get what I mean).

 

This not a hypothetical situation. SynthetikHD was suggesting a course of action in response to a problem that is actively affecting the modding community. This post *encourages* users to blatantly disregard the wishes of a mod author, and do as they want. If they don't like "the law", then don't obey it. The ethics of the law are debatable. You like "the jerk's" mod and he won't let you re-upload? Who cares? Do it anyway. He can't stop you. Don't accept the status quo. "Simple."

 

STEP's advocacy about open modding aside, this post is what you are defending right now. These words are why s/he was (rightfully) downvoted. If someone started spewing racism in their posts, hiding behind the guide of "ethics are debatable", and "I'm allowed my opinion", I'd expect the community to respond with downvoting and for STEP to respond in kind. Obviously, that's a much more severe situation and I hesitate to use it, but it gets the idea across.

 

I have to say, that I'm shocked by STEP's attitude toward this.

[DoubleYou]

I want to quote the post that began this discussion:

 

 

There is not a mod creator alive that wouldn't find this post horribly abrasive (there's always an exception to the rule, but you get what I mean).

 

This not a hypothetical situation. SynthetikHD was suggesting a course of action in response to a problem that is actively affecting the modding community. This post *encourages* users to blatantly disregard the wishes of a mod author, and do as they want. If they don't like "the law", then don't obey it. The ethics of the law are debatable. You like "the jerk's" mod and he won't let you re-upload? Who cares? Do it anyway. He can't stop you. Don't accept the status quo. "Simple."

 

STEP's advocacy about open modding aside, this post is what you are defending right now. These words are why s/he was (rightfully) downvoted. If someone started spewing racism in their posts, hiding behind the guide of "ethics are debatable", and "I'm allowed my opinion", I'd expect the community to respond with downvoting and for STEP to respond in kind. Obviously, that's a much more severe situation and I hesitate to use it, but it gets the idea across.

 

I have to say, that I'm shocked by STEP's attitude toward this.

From my read, it definitely is a hypothetical question. I think you are reading way too much into it.

 

But then, I have always been easy-going.

[z929669]

True. The wording in that post threads the needle. Editing as I have done in yellow would clarify the distinction. I will comment in the OP to clarify our position, thanks.

 

I've just honestly really never understood this...if you do not agree with the parlor view of modding, then don't it's easy not to honor it. Simple.

If the Nexus doesn't want you to upload updated versions of someone else's mods, then you could upload it to one of the literally thousands of data hosting sites that don't have a problem with it. Simple.

 

[moho25]

From my read, it definitely is a hypothetical question. I think you are reading way too much into it.

 

But then, I have always been easy-going.

Okay, then let me provide more context.

 

SynthetikHD's post was a direct reply to this one that preceded it:

 

I wish that the Nexus was fine with updating abandoned mods. There was a few mods that I want to take care of but perms were closed. The files were really simple and not something that one should be able to cr.

Neither post was hypothetical. Hishutup specifically presented a problem with abandoned mods on Nexus. SynthetikHD's non-hypothetical solution to this problem was as contained in his post.

 

You might not view SynthetikHD's response with the level of seriousness as I and others do, which is fine, but it was certainly not a hypothetical response to a hypothetical situation.

 

[MonoAccipiter]

I want to quote the post that began this discussion:

 

 

There is not a mod creator alive that wouldn't find this post horribly abrasive (there's always an exception to the rule, but you get what I mean).

 

This not a hypothetical situation. SynthetikHD was suggesting a course of action in response to a problem that is actively affecting the modding community. This post *encourages* users to blatantly disregard the wishes of a mod author, and do as they want. If they don't like "the law", then don't obey it. The ethics of the law are debatable. You like "the jerk's" mod and he won't let you re-upload? Who cares? Do it anyway. He can't stop you. Don't accept the status quo. "Simple."

 

STEP's advocacy about open modding aside, this post is what you are defending right now. These words are why s/he was (rightfully) downvoted. If someone started spewing racism in their posts, hiding behind the guide of "ethics are debatable", and "I'm allowed my opinion", I'd expect the community to respond with downvoting and for STEP to respond in kind. Obviously, that's a much more severe situation and I hesitate to use it, but it gets the idea across.

 

I have to say, that I'm shocked by STEP's attitude toward this.

The racism argument feels like major strawman to me. Simply because there is such a thing as universally accepted human rights, and the fact that racism in no way is based on a rational argument. There is nothing rational about it at all. Note how Synth explicitly states "I have honestly never understood this" in his argument, as opposed to simply stating that other opinions are ridiculous simply because they are other opinions. Interesting enough (though not relevant at all here) there has actually been certain arguments made against human rights by philosophers such as Nietzsche, which had their basis in rationality and as such were later countered with rationality. I see that you get it's a much more severe situation, but I don't think you get how little it actually applies here.

 

Again, I want to ask, what exactly is STEP's attitude towards this? I visited this in my reply to krypt, so I see no reason to reiterate it. But I do not see how you can paint the reaction of an entire community on a few posts, among which I was probably on the fringe in terms of my rhetoric, which in no way advocated for Synthetik's solution. It was more along the lines of that age-old misquote of Voltaire (never actually said by him, but rather used as an example of something he could have said by a biographer) which goes something like "I do not agree with what you are saying, but I will unto death defend your right to say it". In this case he even clearly specified (albeit later) that he was visiting a situation hypothetically and used questions to move the debate forward, which has been instrumental to achieving a healthy debate ever since Socrates went around asking young Athenians about questions he pretended not to know the answer for. Socrates, who by the way, was sentenced to death because the majority did not like what he opinionated. See how easy it is to produce a false equivalence to make my argument look good?

 

As for the mod creator that wouldn't find it horrible abrasive; I guess I am the exception, and I am sorry that all that does is somehow prove your rule. 

[DoubleYou]

If you really want a simple solution to the first situation, that of fixing existing abandoned mods, I think providing a tool that modifies the original mod when run is the only way to go, such as a TES5edit script, injector, or binary patcher.

[TechAngel85]

I must be the exception as a mod author myself because I don't find it abrasive in the slightest. Like DY, I'm pretty easy-going. If someone took my mod, I really wouldn't care. In fact, I'd have some fun with them by messing with them a little like updating the mod really often, putting in an easter egg about the theft, etc. But that's just the kind of person I am.

 

STEP's stance on this single topic and it's posts is that it's all hypothetical. If we felt otherwise, we would have shut it down. If Synth posts otherwise, we will shut it down. Until then, feel free to debate the solution to abandoned mods that Synth presented and perhaps present your own.

[Nebulous112]

Although I probably didn't help with the initial negativity, I'm wondering if we can steer this conversation to a more positive, constructive place. I've read a lot of great ideas in here about dealing with abandoned mods.

 

 

For abandoned mods I like how people like insanity do things and that is what I mean by abandoned

 

 

 ================== Modder's Will:

==================

If I am offline for six months or longer and do not respond to any attempts made at contacting me, I give full Ownership of my Projects to TES Alliance.

TES Alliance are free to modify/redistribute/remove as they see fit.

 

This is a great idea. I think Nexus should have something similar this by default for newly published mods. With an opt-out obviously. Some set of terms for when mods get abandoned...allowing anyone (or specific people or organizations) to take control in case the author disappears. I wonder if Robin would be amenable to a discussion on this?

 

 

We (STEP) have a similar arrangement with kryptopyr and other authors. I have an Open Modding Agreement in the works that basically says the same thing as well:

 

3. Limited Modification refers to the original author maintaining artistic rights of their mod until said author retires the mod.

    Under Limited Modification, third-party modifications are submitted to the original author to incorporate into the original mod or to be uploaded as optional files.
        The original author must make due diligence to review all modifications submitted to them.
        The original author holds the decision of whether submitted modifications are best incorporated or hosted separately.
    Any modifications mod to an original mod should be incorporated into said mod, unless otherwise directed by the original author.
        Mods which the author decides are best hosted separately will be uploaded by their original authors; not by the author of the parent mod.
    Once the author retires said mod, the mod is converted to Open Modification and all future modifications should be incorporated into the original mod.
    If the author is not active within 30 days of of any correspondence (e.g. PMs, emails, thread activity, etc), the mod is considered retired and converts to Open Modification.

 

30 days should be more than a reasonable amount of time for authors to respond to correspondences.

 

Fantastic! I love the idea of an open-modding agreement. I do wonder if 30 days is too short...sometimes people go on vacation for 2 months at a time. But if it is too long, it is useless as a mechanism to promote innovation and updates. I'm quite interested to read the finished product of this open modding license.

 

 

What if instead of releasing a brand new mod with a new mod page under one's name, a user was allowed to create spin offs of a mod which will inherit any permissions from the parent outside of the spin off.

This would allow users to update mods, the author can keep his modpage in tact and have traffic directed through his page and not be responsible for any spin off.

 

I think this would work.

 

Not a bad idea. Kind of like forking on GitHub? Do you have any further thoughts on how this would work?

 

 

If you really want a simple solution to the first situation, that of fixing existing abandoned mods, I think providing a tool that modifies the original mod when run is the only way to go, such as a TES5edit script, injector, or binary patcher.

 

With the news that all mods will need to be saved in the new CK to work, this proposed tool will be greatly needed for Skyrim Special Edition. I hope such a tool can be created. How difficult do you think such a tool would be to create? I suppose it would all depend on the differences in the new CK and SSE compared to the old CK and Skyrim.

[CovertSlinky]

People telling other people that they can not alter something they altered! Altered Intellectual Property that can not be altered? Are you serious?

 

I totally agree with upholding copyrights. But the bottom line of copyrights IN THIS CONTEXT or SITUATION is this, if everyone in the world upheld to the ideals that the majority of you are declaring one way or another, then Bethesda would have never given permission to the root of this topic and ipso facto we wouldn't even be discussing this on a site that wouldn't even exist because of it.

 

Bethesda gave all of us the right to alter there property however we wish. We have to be able to hold ourselves to some form of that standard aswell imo, otherwise, what's the point?

 

But I am no mod author, so maybe I don't have the right to valid opinion on this topic specifically. I am a parent, and I think I would have a hard time hearing advice about parenting from someone who does not have kids. That pretty much reeks of bigotry. So what do we do?

[CovertSlinky]

Couldn't edit my post to include this. I had only read up to page 3 of this thread. And I thought for sure I was on the last page, but nope. So I have made a comment while still being ignorant to the discussion. Just to put that out there. But I do still stand by what I said though, but maybe this discussion has evolved to where my statement is moot now, idk, but will find out when I finish reading.

[CovertSlinky]

Nvm first post is still relevantish ;)

[Greg]

I think 30 days for an average case of "abandonment" is too short as well because there may well be mitigating circumstances like vacations, time out to recuperate, real life gets in the way, extended illness, etc. I know if I created a mod and walked away from it, I certainly would not mind someone else picking it up. In fact, I would be honored that someone considered it worthy.

 

I really like the idea of open modding, but it would even nicer if we had a system in place in which others could submit "patches" to a mod or modified assets. I don't think Nexus is an appropriate venue for this, though.

[TechAngel85]

What time frame would you all consider more appropriate? 60 days? 90 days would be the max I think I would be comfortable with. If an author can't make a single post within 90 days there's a more serious issue than abandonment, imo. The purpose of the short time frame is to prevent laziness on the author's part.

[redirishlord]

Although I probably didn't help with the initial negativity, I'm wondering if we can steer this conversation to a more positive, constructive place. I've read a lot of great ideas in here about dealing with abandoned mods.

 

 

 

This is a great idea. I think Nexus should have something similar this by default for newly published mods. With an opt-out obviously. Some set of terms for when mods get abandoned...allowing anyone (or specific people or organizations) to take control in case the author disappears. I wonder if Robin would be amenable to a discussion on this?

 

 

 

Fantastic! I love the idea of an open-modding agreement. I do wonder if 30 days is too short...sometimes people go on vacation for 2 months at a time. But if it is too long, it is useless as a mechanism to promote innovation and updates. I'm quite interested to read the finished product of this open modding license.

 

 

 

Not a bad idea. Kind of like forking on GitHub? Do you have any further thoughts on how this would work?

 

 

 

With the news that all mods will need to be saved in the new CK to work, this proposed tool will be greatly needed for Skyrim Special Edition. I hope such a tool can be created. How difficult do you think such a tool would be to create? I suppose it would all depend on the differences in the new CK and SSE compared to the old CK and Skyrim.

Those all sound like great ideas &/or conversations to start. I followed the link Neo posted on the previous page to DarkOne's news re- mod theft & console modding which referred to a multiple choice option for the mod author's wishes regarding how their work should or is shared with Bethesda.net & console users. Similar options at Nexus upload might also be a good idea; multiple options re- permissions (which may already be a thing), options on a modder's will (30/60/90 days without contact, or never). Maybe a forum thread on Nexus that links back here would be helpful, especially if you already have a dialog going over there? And the xEdit script to update deprecated & abandoned mods, that sounds like a great workaround, and not just because someone besides me will have to make it happen (no skills :confused: ). Oh, and the "forking" thing, brilliant, that would make life easy for end users like myself. The STEP wiki keeps me informed, but for mod users who haven't found this site that forked functionality would really help (kudos to those who put links in their mod descriptions to accomplish that). Depending on how hard it would be to code, that sounds like another great conversation to take up with the Nexus staff.

[Greg]

I would be comfortable with 90 days and I agree that anything over 90 days seems too long.