Paid mods are now available on the workshop

[TehKaoZ]

A couple of them are patting themselves on the back as well, as if they are heroes of a great war

 

I'm sure if they monetize mods for other less established or new games they will fair much better. Skyrim is just far too developed into what it is and how it functions, I don't think it's practical to monetize mods at this point.

 

I am still hopeful Chesko and Isoku will be around in the future, once things cool off, I mean.. one can hope right?

Edited April 28, 2015 by TehKaoZ

[Greg]

Perhaps all of us here in STEP should be actively thinking of ways to promote support for modders? It's all well and good for us to feel vindicated in our stance, but we don't really amount to a 'hill of beans'.

 

What about promoting donations to the author/mod on the guides? I think the collective knowledge of all of us is pretty sizeable, certainly it seems to be compared to the childish antics on other fora, is it possible we can formulate a structure that can be presented to Nexus, one that actively encourages support of the right people? The current Nexus donation scheme I think is flawed because it is too easy to ignore, the recent change to the download message is a good start, can that be improved upon?

 

@Sheson makes a good point about the mod managers having a chance to promote donations. Not sure how that could be implemented but even a popup reminder or an icon similar to MO's 'Endorse' would be good.

 

Two things are going to happen now as I see it.

1. The 'community' will rally and devise an equitable way to compensate mod authors or...
2. they will fall back and feel like the victory has happened.

Victory has not been gained, the first battle was won, but business interests are much more pressing than sentimental opinions of 'right and wrong'.

 

Could someone correct me if I'm wrong on this? The way Nexus has donations structured is to the author, not the mod? ie. the mod author has many mods listed but the donations are tied to their account/user name, not the mod page, or even a specific mod on that page?

 

If that is the case, it probably needs to be more refined. Do the authors even know which mod is prompting donations from users? That would be a motivating factor in maintaining support for that mod or improving the less-than-supported mods.

I think your second scenario is closer to reality. Someone here already mentioned that donations increased on the first day and dwindled to near nothing by the second or third day. I think by now a large portion of the people on Steam and Nexus have already forgotten about the need to monetarily support mod authors. By the end of the week, it'll be near zero (if it isn't already near zero today).

[kryptopyr]

Could someone correct me if I'm wrong on this? The way Nexus has donations structured is to the author, not the mod? ie. the mod author has many mods listed but the donations are tied to their account/user name, not the mod page, or even a specific mod on that page?

 

If that is the case, it probably needs to be more refined. Do the authors even know which mod is prompting donations from users? That would be a motivating factor in maintaining support for that mod or improving the less-than-supported mods.

That's correct.  Donations are tied to the user's account, there's no way to tell which mod the donation was for (unless we get a comment from the user that mentions a specific mod). 

 

I suspect there are some major hurdles to refining the donations.  Nexus would have to set up and start managing an entire payment/shopping cart system.  I'm sure that would place a major burden on the site's overhead costs and management.  As it currently stands, Nexus does not handle any of the money.  They aren't involved in the transaction at all; it's a direct transfer through paypal.  If Nexus started playing middleman, it might also trigger certain tax burdens, require a different type of business licensing, etc (I don't know any of that for certain, but it wouldn't surprise me). 

[TechAngel85]

That's correct.  Donations are tied to the user's account, there's no way to tell which mod the donation was for (unless we get a comment from the user that mentions a specific mod). 

 

I suspect there are some major hurdles to refining the donations.  Nexus would have to set up and start managing an entire payment/shopping cart system.  I'm sure that would place a major burden on the site's overhead costs and management.  As it currently stands, Nexus does not handle any of the money.  They aren't involved in the transaction at all; it's a direct transfer through paypal.  If Nexus started playing middleman, it might also trigger certain tax burdens, require a different type of business licensing, etc (I don't know any of that for certain, but it wouldn't surprise me). 

Scott has already stated he doesn't want to get involved in any of that as well.

[GrantSP]

Perhaps Nexus should just allow for other types of money exchange systems to be implemented on the mod pages?

PayPal or Patreon or anything else that is solely under the purview of the author and can be dis/enabled at their will, not Nexus.

 

Clearly the biggest uproar, from sane mod users, wasn't the payment to authors but rather the measly amount they were getting.

Remove the slice to Valve/Bethesda and the constraints on reaching a minimum $100 before receipt and then the author is solely responsible for the payment. If the 'big boys' want to come back in later and "ask nicely" for a cut then that can be figured out, maybe some sort of licencing scheme where you, the author, pay back to Valve/Bethesda, a slice of the revenue AFTER a certain figure is met. That way the benefits are given to those with priority: author then commercial entity.

 

Something along those lines doesn't have to be initiated or even maintained by either Steam, Nexus or any other site. Each mod could simply have the same link to the same account accessed from anywhere. A Steam user clicks the button and sends funds in exactly the same way a Nexus user does. As far as the author is concerned it is the product that is being funded, not the distribution system.

[keithinhanoi]

https://www.bethblog.com/2015/04/27/why-were-trying-paid-skyrim-mods-on-steam/

 

While they all keep saying they are in touch with their community the whole ordeal just shows how they aren't.

 

History lessons

https://firstmonday.org/article/view/2971/2529#p5

Interesting read on the history of the WoW modding community and the changes Blizzard took them through, especially since I was too busy with life at the time and missed out on that whole thing.

 

I find it fascinating that for the WoW modding community they went bezerk when Blizzard announced paid mods were no longer allowed, even though the vast majority of add-on creators (all but two) offered free mods. It seems an opposite view from the vocal majority of Skyrim mod users over the past weekend - from that article:

 

 

Modders, however, generally believed that they had the right to decide what to do with their mods, including the option to sell, even when they had generally not exercised that right.

 

Kow, Y. M, and Nardi, B., 2010. First Monday, Vol. 15, No 5, https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/2971/2529 (viewed 28 April 2015)

 

Regarding that Bethesda Blog entry, Why we’re trying paid Skyrim mods on Steam (Updated), some background is revealed, as is their mis-informed point of view, in a number of statements.

 

They claim there's a link between allowing Oblivion to be modded and having to change the rating from Teen to Mature, "costing us millions of dollars." Does it cost millions of dollars to secure a Mature rating, or are they just talking about the loss of potential revenue from teens? I think they are forgetting to acknowledge they extended their audience age range upward, and give too much credit to the loss of the teen audience merely due to the M rating labels.

 

Then, it's explained that the idea for a Steam Workshop with paid Skyrim mods has been on the table since 2012. For nearly 3 years! Then they say "Three years later and Valve has finally solved the technical and legal hurdles to make such a thing possible, and they should be celebrated for it. It wasn’t easy." So why did they have to rush during that final critical step of rolling out the new service?

 

The people making the decisions on this in the past three months clearly forgot everything they learned about change management theory while studying their dime-a-dozen MBAs - if they completed an MBA, that is.

 

Then, a bit later: "Opening up a market like this is full of problems. They are all the same problems every software developer faces (support, theft, etc.), and the solutions are the same. Valve has done a great job addressing those, but there will be new ones, and we’re confident those will get solved over time also."

 

Yes, the solutions are all the same - take a hands-off approach. Let the content creators and the rowdy bunch of Steam subscribers sort it out, and Valve only gets involved if they absolutely have to. It's cheaper that way.

 

Next, "There are certainly other ways of supporting modders, through donations and other options. We are in favor of all of them. One doesn’t replace another, and we want the choice to be the community’s. Yet, in just one day, a popular mod developer made more on the Skyrim paid workshop than he made in all the years he asked for donations."

 

So how does Bethesda intend to show us that they are in favor of donations and "other options"? Is that by not restricting or regulating the donations system on Nexus? Okay, if true, then great, it's back in "our" hands, and we just need to convince Robin Scott / the Dark One of a system that will work (more from me on this further down.) What I don't understand, though is why they didn't actually ask the community, if they are claiming the choice should be ours. Where was the consultative step in this change? Oh wait, see my comment above, re: MBAs and change management theory.

 

Then, in hindsight - the incredible ironic statement about a popular mod developer making more on the paid workshop than in donations. Completely got it wrong. Nexus has never allowed users to ask for donations. Robin Scott has made that very clear. So it's an unfair comparison right there, let alone the donation system is clunky at best and doesn't encourage the level of donations people may be willing (or able) to make. Adding insult to injury, until I hear otherwise, I assume that because Valve / Bethesda have pulled all paid mods and will be refunding everyone who bought one, it means they won't be paying the mod authors who took that risk anything. (Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.)

 

Nevertheless, I will concede to Bethesda that the relative success of sales of a few mods just over the weekend does show there is a definite willingness on the part of some portion of mod users to pay for mods. So we're left with that revealing information, and the opportunity to do something about it, on "our" terms.

 

On Bethesda's revenue share for paid Skyrim mods: "This is not some money grabbing scheme by us. Even this weekend, when Skyrim was free for all, mod sales represented less than 1% of our Steam revenue."

 

Um, how is that even related? And your using sales from the initial 2 days after rolling out just a little over two dozen paid mods? It doesn't prove anything. Total red herring.

 

But here's an argument I can say might make a little more sense: "Even now, at 25% and early sales data, we’re looking at some modders making more money than the studio members whose content is being edited."

 

But then again - are we comparing money made per day? You can't apply the scale of sales in the first two days for the rest of time. And aren't the studio members staff who are paid a salary, with health insurance and benefits? Again, apples and oranges.

 

Anyhow, regarding the 25% cut to content creators, they finish with "If it needs to change, we’ll change it." Well, if they ever want to make anything from Skyrim mods, they probably should give it a good long think.

 

The last two bits in the blog entry talk about the modding community and how Bethesda is "part of it," and that they are fully against DRM, and "Most people don’t know, but our very own Skyrim DLC has zero DRM." I'm not sure which Skyrim DLC they're referring to, but the DLCs are of course worthless without Skyrim itself, which has accompanying .dll files requiring Steam to be installed with your account active as we all know. Whatever.

 

As for Bethesda's claims of being a part of the modding community, I will again point back to my comments about change management theory. Main tenet which applies here being - let everyone know about the coming change and hear out their concerns before implementing it.

 

 

With the setup as it is on Nexus at the moment, it's VERY easy to miss donation buttons. You need to make a conscious effort to hunt them down. 

 

If what Dark0ne is saying's going to happen does happen that will be a good thing and will hopefully up the donation rates.

 

I've just checked, and as the Dark One announced earlier this weekend, if a mod author has turned it on for their mod / mod file downloads, a pop-up window reminding you of the option to donate will appear with the donate button when you download a mod file, and a Donate button will appear at the top of the mod's Nexus page, right next to the Endorse button.

 

Similarly, if the mod author has turned on the option, when you view the mod author's Nexus user page, there will be a Donate button (with the British pound symbol on it) at the top-right-ish corner.

 

 

Now it's time for Nexus to overhaul their donation system for those authors who wish to move towards a more career in modding.

 

Really, I haven't seen any mod authors saying they hope to move towards a career in modding. Everyone who has stated they'd like to receive money for their mods has just said only that. They would appreciate receiving something for all that work and time.

 

So, I'm going to copy-paste my current pie-in-the-sky concept for a donation system that I typed up over in the SMIM comments thread:

 

Now that Valve has pulled out from their paid Skyrim mod initiative / scheme (for the time being), we're left to ponder about how to make this work in a way that doesn't "ruffle people's feathers" too much. I know Robin Scott / Dark One doesn't want people "begging" for money or soliciting donations (or endorsements for that matter,) but there has to be some way for mod authors to communicate that donations are actually a motivating factor for them, and also to change the donations system into something that people are more willing to use. 

 

I envision a system where donations can actually be set to "micro-payments" (fractions of a dollar / Euro / etc.) which a much larger number of people may be willing to use than sending individual 2-5 dollar / Euro payments. I've seen people post that they would feel guilty sending anything smaller, but if you consider the idea of "economy of scale", there's really no reason to feel guilty if we know lots of people are also sending "just a little to help out." Only 1 out of a 100 people may be inspired to give $1, while 20+ out of that 100 may be fine with giving $0.20. It's really difficult to swallow the idea of donating $1 each to the authors of 200 mods, but $.20? Sure, maybe over two or three months. And I honestly believe there are a lot of mod users like me out there who would feel the same. Of course, make it a "donate what you like" system, so if someone actually wants to give more, then power to them!

 

Unfortunately, I don't see a donation system website or API, etc. that works like this, "out of the box" - though I haven't looked much yet. Patreon is interesting, but it's more "subscription" based and doesn't seem like a good fit for Nexus.

 

EDIT: I see the Dark One has posted his response to Valve's / Bethesda's "pull-out" announcement. The comments thread for his post prove quickly that the wounds are still very much open and festering over the series of events, with two galvanized and polarized groups duking it out in what seems will be a never-ending cyclical argument over who should be labelled as entitled and whether anyone owes anything for anything.

 

I'm going to go back to finishing that AOS update now, and try hard not to read another forum thread until it's ready. See you all in some days...

Edited April 28, 2015 by keithinhanoi

[dstansberry]

Well, I've finally taken the plunge and made a few long-overdue donations to a small handful of my personal modding heroes. Sadly, it isn't much to any one individual - but it's a modest start. Hopefully, there'll be something more "collective" within the community as a whole, and all the other little, modest starts will add up to something meaningful. Economies of scale and all that.

 

One thing I found a little odd, however, was the lack of an opportunity to comment in any way. I've made PayPal transactions before, and in many of them there's a place to make notes to the "seller' - I rather expected that there would be an opportunity to privately express appreciation for the work those good folks have done, and for their generosity in sharing so freely. And, in at least a couple of cases, perhaps something of an apology for the way recent events panned out. We're not all predisposed to turn on people we respect, but most of us sit quietly amid the chaos, so it sure must have seemed that way.

 

I guess I was just expecting it to be more "personal" and less generic, but I suppose it works out the same for the author in the end, and that's what really matters.

 

I'm looking forward to ticking a few others of my list next time around!

[keithinhanoi]

One thing I found a little odd, however, was the lack of an opportunity to comment in any way. I've made PayPal transactions before, and in many of them there's a place to make notes to the "seller' - I rather expected that there would be an opportunity to privately express appreciation for the work those good folks have done, and for their generosity in sharing so freely. And, in at least a couple of cases, perhaps something of an apology for the way recent events panned out. We're not all predisposed to turn on people we respect, but most of us sit quietly amid the chaos, so it sure must have seemed that way.

 

I guess I was just expecting it to be more "personal" and less generic, but I suppose it works out the same for the author in the end, and that's what really matters.

 

I've still been able to add a note to the seller for all the donations I've sent in the past few days. It's got a limit of only about 200 characters I think, so I had to choose my words carefully.

 

However (and this is something of a downside to using Paypal), both the transaction page and the receipt I receive in my e-mail have the recipient's e-mail address. So, if I wanted to, I could send a follow up e-mail to fully express my appreciation and sentiments. I haven't chosen to do so recently, but I have done that in past, though I promised not to exploit having the mod author's e-mail.

 

The downside of this is, of course, it costs anyone $1 to get a person's e-mail to be used for nefarious purposes.

[Jverv]

I will be continuing my donations to mod makers as well. That's the one good thing to come out of this. It's really upsetting that we had to lose some great modders in my opinion due to this. The whole thing could of just been handled so much better. But I am glad we have shone a light on the fact that the great modders deserve more then a bunch of hours answering repeat questions on the nexus.

 

I have to agree with what people like neovalan have pointed out; this is probably the end of free modding for future Bethesda games which is ashame for those of us who have been modding their games for years.

[dstansberry]

I was also wondering about having the ability to establish a "Nexus wallet" (as someone mentioned earlier) and add a "tip" or "gratuity" button that instantly transfers a set amount (say, 10 cents) from the wallet to the mod author. As opposed to endorsing the mod (a one-time thing, unless you first un-endorse), the "Tip" button could be used as often as you like - until your wallet runs dry. Simple, fast, no need to log into PayPal and agonize over how much is appropriate, and it would track the specific mod being tipped as well as the user making the offering. Better yet would be the opportunity to send a message to the author at the same time (purely optional, of course).

 

Mods could be sorted by most tipped, along with the other options. Mod organizers could initiate the tip just as they do the endorsement, or perhaps combine the two ("tipping" automatically endorses as well, but not vice versa).

 

I'm an odd duck - I don't know how many times I popped on to the Immersive Patrols post page when it first came out to tell some silly story that happened in my game as a result of that mod, or to say how thrilled I was to discover someone new in Interesting NPC's that made me laugh out loud. I've often said I wished I could endorse a mod over again - those are exactly the times I'd click the Tip button for the sixth time, if it were available.

I've still been able to add a note to the seller for all the donations I've sent in the past few days. It's got a limit of only about 200 characters I think, so I had to choose my words carefully.

 

Interesting! I specifically looked for that option and didn't find it anywhere. Of course, I don't think I could manage to tell you your shoes were untied in under 200 characters! I can be a long-winded cuss.

[dstansberry]

However (and this is something of a downside to using Paypal), both the transaction page and the receipt I receive in my e-mail have the recipient's e-mail address. So, if I wanted to, I could send a follow up e-mail to fully express my appreciation and sentiments.

I noticed that as well, but I'd feel awkward about intruding uninvited into someone's inbox like that. I feel intrusive enough sending private messages via Nexus! Which is odd, I suppose, as I don't mind receiving them at all.

[GrantSP]

I have just spent a half-hour making a VERY cursory look through the options available to give mod authors payment and come to this painful conclusion:

 

There is no current system available that allows users to make minuscule, though appreciated, payments without the 3rd party(ies) that handles those payments coming out the better for it.

ie. every micro-transaction incurs some fees or payments, either to the 3rd party (PayPal or Patreon) or to the financial institutions (MasterCard, Visa, your local bank). End result we will substitute Valve/Bethesda for the financial option of your choice. The big difference of course is the split is greatly reduced.

 

Anywhere from 0.5% to 5% on every transaction to set fees all the way up to $30.

This is where I imagine Robin Scott/DarkOne has looked and rightly shied away. The logistics of managing an all-embracing fund system for all the games that eventually will be using a scheme like this, and keeping track of the users that donate and the authors that are recipients, will need a full-time staff at least of 5 or 6 people. It doesn't even consider the legalities of setting up and running said funding system.

 

What is needed is some way to make pledges, that don't involve the actual transfer of funds, that accrue and when they reach a critical limit where the fees are negligible, payment is called in. How? Beats me. This all boils down to a school of little fish trying to help each other when the big fish are holding all the options.

 

I think I will leave this alone now, my Utopian dreams of fair pay for work are never going to cut it.

[Nozzer66]

The way I do it is simply donate via PayPal and then pop them a Nexus PM or a PM on this board stating what it's for etc.

[gobbldygook]

I have just spent a half-hour making a VERY cursory look through the options available to give mod authors payment and come to this painful conclusion:

 

There is no current system available that allows users to make minuscule, though appreciated, payments without the 3rd party(ies) that handles those payments coming out the better for it.

ie. every micro-transaction incurs some fees or payments, either to the 3rd party (PayPal or Patreon) or to the financial institutions (MasterCard, Visa, your local bank). End result we will substitute Valve/Bethesda for the financial option of your choice. The big difference of course is the split is greatly reduced.

 

Anywhere from 0.5% to 5% on every transaction to set fees all the way up to $30.

This is where I imagine Robin Scott/DarkOne has looked and rightly shied away. The logistics of managing an all-embracing fund system for all the games that eventually will be using a scheme like this, and keeping track of the users that donate and the authors that are recipients, will need a full-time staff at least of 5 or 6 people. It doesn't even consider the legalities of setting up and running said funding system.

 

What is needed is some way to make pledges, that don't involve the actual transfer of funds, that accrue and when they reach a critical limit where the fees are negligible, payment is called in. How? Beats me. This all boils down to a school of little fish trying to help each other when the big fish are holding all the options.

 

I think I will leave this alone now, my Utopian dreams of fair pay for work are never going to cut it.

I haven't actually used this service before, but Flattr looks like it does something similar to what you're describing? If they added a flattr button to all mod pages, then people could set up their own budget and give to various mod creators that way...

 

Edit: Here's a link!

Edited April 28, 2015 by gobbldygook

[anomalous]

The concept of monthly donation was pioneered by NGOs a while back. Although the transition was difficult it is now the most effective and preferred means of fundraising by causes large and small. People balk less at making small monthly payments to causes they actually care about. What if nexus made a transition to such a system for their premium membership? Then, under this system people pay, on a sliding scale, throughout the year. This would provide a stable revenue for their expenditures. But, what if this was also tied to endorsements so that a set percentage of one's monthly membership were split evenly to the mods currently endorsed by the premium member? Would this not create the very incentive based system that valve and Bethesda claimed they wanted to create? How many thousands would be willing to pay 5 dollars a month to have premium membership with the added bonus of providing a monthly income for their favorite modders? If this transaction was done monthly by nexus, it would outweigh the micro transaction fees imposed by likes of PayPal, etc.