Paid mods are now available on the workshop

[Aiyen]

Actually speaking of ENB then this directly from Boris´s update on the matter. 

 

Also in license you may find that it's possible to sell presets of ENBSeries, but without any binaries of it (dll, exe).

 

 

On the subjective part "better than ENB"... does not mean that he says "prettier than ENB"... It is just like certain SweetFX profiles will claim they are better than ENB. For low end machines who cant run ENB, then it is technically true... but oh well that debate is not really what this is all about.

 

I am still waiting for the first people to try to sell presets... After all it is REALLY easy to just copy paste popular presets, and then make a few minor alterations on them and sell them as your own. I predict that nothing good can come from that. 

 

As for people wondering on my stance since I am a preset and shader creator. I honestly do not think the various legal issues is worth it. Some code pieces are identical to the originals, some have been mixed into something entirely new... but I am fairly certain that I will just keep up my current model, of trying to advertise my work as little as possible (So I avoid most of the horrible nexus crowd), and only accept donations from people who REALLY REALLY want to. (So far the only stuff I have accepted as a result of modding have been in the form of games on steam... a decent way to do it imo)

[TehKaoZ]

@kryptopyr

 

The only problem though is that people who paid for a mod and now can't use other mods as a result of compatibility issues won't see it that way and since realistically speaking the only people who can provide that compatibility are those who have access to the monetized mod (the user and the author). Since the user is the customer, they may be less inclined try to patch things themselves and expect the product they paid for to simply work the way they want it to. With free modding a user was not entitled to anything, but can you really tell someone who spent money that they aren't entitled at that point?

[Saerileth]

Not that it matters much, but the guy only downloaded the mods to showcase the flaws with them, he said he didn't intend to use them either way. Also, with the fact that your money is stuck with steam and the fact that you get banned for 7 days from the marketplace if you ask for a refund, I can't really blame him for acquiring the mods through piracy.

Still not okay, as he practically invalidates his own review - there is absolutely no guarantee that the mods he acquired are the genuine article. They may have been fakes, or deliberately flawed versions leaked by the author to spite pirates. The relatively elaborate review of Bleakden for example looks different from the screenshots that the original author uploaded to Steam Workshop, e.g. there is no clutter or decoration to be seen anywhere. Now it's perfectly possible (and most likely) that the author cherry-picked his screenshot locations to show off the few decent looking areas, but it's also possible that someone with an axe to grind gutted the mod before uploading it to the pirate site.

 

And even if he did review the original, there is no justification for thievery (much as I like to play rogues in video games, I don't stoop to it in real life). This might be a special case because of the controversy surrounding the whole thing, but reviewers don't usually do what they do out of the goodness of their hearts or because of principle - they make money from ads, especially if they are on youtube. And mod authors see nothing of that money, the only benefit to them is a potentially favourable review. Stealing something and then trashing it ranks pretty high as far as dickmoves go in my opinion, since you're essentially making money off of something you stole, and then add insult to injury by making the author lose customers. There is no justification for that, no matter how bad you think the mod is.

[kryptopyr]

@kryptopyr

 

The only problem though is that people who paid for a mod and now can't use other mods as a result of compatibility issues won't see it that way and since realistically speaking the only people who can provide that compatibility are those who have access to the monetized mod (the user and the author). Since the user is the customer, they may be less inclined try to patch things themselves and expect the product they paid for to simply work the way they want it to. With free modding a user was not entitled to anything, but can you really tell someone who spent money that they aren't entitled at that point?

Yes I can.  Purchasing a mod entitles them to certain expectations of support.  The author should make sure the mod works as advertised and be active in addressing any bugs or problems within that mod.  It does not, however, entitle them to the mod author's infinite time or the expectation that the mod author will drop everything and spend hours and hours of additional time to support compatibility with every other mod out there.  That's completely unreasonable, and that level of support cannot be expected from any purchase of any item costing a few dollars or less. 

[sheson]

There is nothing wrong with a reviewer being compensated for his work of creating a review for whatever it is he is reviewing.

[Saerileth]

There is nothing wrong with a reviewer being compensated for his work of creating a review for whatever it is he is reviewing.

I actually agree to that, but when you make reviewing a product your business (or at least secondary income), there is also nothing wrong with investing part of that compensation into the thing that allows to you review anything in the first place. And that means buying the product you are reviewing. Every major consumer magazine does it (unless they are provided with free samples voluntarily by the owner), I don't see why this shouldn't apply to mod reviewers. Just because most authors have so far chosen to ignore that they are the only ones not profiting from their own work does not mean that reviewers now have a right to lifelong free access to any and all mods. It doesn't work that way.

[cstarkey42]

Mods seem to be unique in the perspective that they should be expected to be made compatible with many, if not all, other mods out there, irregardless of how bad of a fit they may be together.  I can't, for instance, expect to buy certain items for my car, such as doors that open vertically or 68 inch tires ( those are big, right?  I really don't know... ), or even reasonably expect the manufacturer to replace all of the nuts and bolts with a standardized measure instead of metric, since I'm an American, damn it.  My tv doesn't work with most remotes that aren't designed for it, comcast won't make their service compatible with any dvr, just the ones you have to rent from them...hell, my ps3 won't play xbox games and, as I understand it, the new generation of consoles won't even play the old generation's games.  Looking around my house I'm hard pressed to find any item that I can reasonably, or unreasonably, as the case may be, be expected to be made compatible with other items, even if it would seem that they should "mesh" well together.

 

Mods, however, have been treated differently but I don't think that obligates the author to make their mod work well with others, paid for or not.  I think it has been a great and valuable service that many authors have provided, both in an act of kindness and, no doubt, in an effort to expand the popularity of their mod by making it work in as many different load orders as possible.  If an author wants to have a good name in the paid mod community they might find it in their best interest to supply patches and, in many cases, it would only be good business sense to do so.  However, looking at the quality of many of the mods being offered, good business sense might be in very short order on the workshop.  Obviously the barriers created by the implementation of the workshop make this even more difficult as authors might not be able to simply add optional download buttons and other authors are unable to simply make a patch for the community and send it to the author or even host it on their own site.  Of course I'm sure this was something that was discussed in the Valve meetings so we can rest assured that it's all under control...  ( really with I knew how to do the eye roll emoji here... )

[mikegray]

Yes I can.  Purchasing a mod entitles them to certain expectations of support.  The author should make sure the mod works as advertised and be active in addressing any bugs or problems within that mod.  It does not, however, entitle them to the mod author's infinite time or the expectation that the mod author will drop everything and spend hours and hours of additional time to support compatibility with every other mod out there.  That's completely unreasonable, and that level of support cannot be expected from any purchase of any item costing a few dollars or less. 

Say, Kryptopyr -

 

I read you, and I agree. For my part, the post I made a couple pages back was NOT intended to imply that paid modders are morally obliged to provide supererogatory patching services. 

 

What I AM seeing, though, is that paid mods on Steam are likely to be more severely hampered by compatibility problems than free mods on Nexus - and that isn't good for those mods.

 

These days, I think compatibility is possibly THE most crucial thing in Skyrim modding. We've got a bazillion cool mods out there already. But to end up with a good gaming experience you need your mods to harmonize on so many different levels: Do the meshes and textures and animations for everything from distant waterfalls to hanging ivy to jiggling bosoms fit together? Do the weapons, armors and spells have reasonable stats? Does the ENB suit the lighting and weather system? And do all these mods place reasonable demands on resources - and if not, which ones are being greedy?

 

However terrific any single mod may be, if it doesn't fit into a larger system, you can't use it. If you know you can't use it, you probably won't want to buy it - and if you buy it without realizing you won't be able to use it, you probably won't be a happy customer. 

 

Of course, one way to deal with this situation would be for someone to start selling really good patches - and I for one would be customer!

[Octopuss]

Fortunately the 7 days ban is not working as intended.

[z929669]

FYI: here is the web page that leads to much of the current and relevant information on this topic. Follow the links and read the main articles.

I am starting to think that it may be possible that pay-for mods (and Steam Workshop in general) will follow the analogy of the pre-built PC versus the home-built PC ...

The pre-built (Steam Workshop mods) is all packaged up and (supposedly) ready to go, but ...

• there is always bloatware and proprietary configuration relics that are more tailored to the provider than to the user (e.g., to decrease the support burden to the provider).
• Subsequent upgrades and customizations are often not possible or extremely limited .... compatibility often sucks
• These are usually rinky-dink machines that on the surface look clean and professional, but underneath the hood are just a mess of garbage.

The home built (open, freely-available mods) ...

• is the product of research and testing.
• Optimal configurations and compatibility are primary drivers. Upgrades are relatively easy, and the user is almost always happy and in a position to make pragmatic changes if necessary with relatively little outside help
• These are usually more powerful systems that fit the user (and the user range) beter and ultimately have much longer longevity and relevance.

The Steam Workshop may have (or may acquire) a few good mods, but many of the best WIPs and customizable mods and modding utilities are (will be?) on the open web.

[kryptopyr]

I definitely agree with you on that.  Compatibility concerns are something that both mod users and mod makers should be aware of, even more so with paid content.  Personally, I wouldn't want to release a complex mod on Steam at all just for that reason.  It won't stop others, of course, but there's going to be a bit of a learning curve for everyone involved.  I think mod reviews and mod guides will become even more important to help users navigate which mods can be used together.

 

I also suspect that newer mod authors may take it upon themselves to create and release patches for their mods and the larger, popular mods as a way of boosting their own mod's ratings.  This is already what tends to happen on Nexus (in general, at least, not necessary in every case).

 

 

Edit: I think Z's analogy is probably dead on.

[TehKaoZ]

I don't feel that modders are obligated to provide compatibility even if they sell a monetized mod but rather, meant that users will likely feel entitled to that support because they paid money. I mean users act entitled even with free content, can't imagine what the introduction of paying customers might do.

 

Either way many people will have no choice then to pester the author since they will be directed there by free authors who don't have access

Edited April 27, 2015 by TehKaoZ

[sheson]

It is pretty clear that the people at Valve never modded Skyrim and have no clue about what a modder has to do to have a working game,

 

Somebody should start a story/video modding Skyrim with a 100 mods from the Workshop.

 

In this contest you are not allowed to rely on any of the knowledge, guides or tools created and collected by the community that is not available on Steam.

 

Once successful we can start talk again about Valve or Bethesda getting a cut of our work.

 

Until then please, 25% is worse than 100% donation. For that 25% you have to create quality mods and support steam users. Who are you kidding?

Edited April 27, 2015 by sheson

[Aiyen]

40% of a few sales might still be more than 10% of quite a few more after all. 

Since this has never been tried then I guess they just use standard existing contracts to ease the legal process. After all Valve and Zenimax also have to reach an agreement about what is fair for their respective companies. 

 

However this again just kinda shows that the whole thing is not thought through.. but rather a stumbling in the dark and a lets bide our time and see what happens. 

 

There is no doubt that if bethesda actually had provided all the tools to easily mod their games they would have been in a much stronger position to implement this sort of deal. Who knows.. they might learn from all of this, and for the next title actually provide a decent built in mod manager, as well as various scripts to sort out basic incompatibilities. Heck they might even actually make it so that the various entries in the game are split up in a more patch friendly way (Region records.. I am looking at you!) 

If you think about it... how long do you think it would take a professional team of programmers to implement a similar system to what MO does... as well as tes5edit etc. All the source is readily available... so they might not steal it, but be heavily inspired by it. 

[Ganda]

There is no doubt that if bethesda actually had provided all the tools to easily mod their games they would have been in a much stronger position to implement this sort of deal.

*cough*havok animations*cough*nif format*cough*

so they might not steal it, but be heavily inspired by it. 

*cough*Hearthfire*cough*