Paid mods are now available on the workshop

[hazelwolf]

Are you kidding?  The abusive idiots who are "protecting" this community are the ones driving these modders away.  While Valve and Bethesda may not be acting particularly noble (they do appear to have taken Chesko's mods down in the end, though), why don't we stop blaming them for all the crap the community is bringing on itself.

 

And did you fully read schlangster's comment?  It sounds like the ONLY reason we're even getting a SkyUI update is because of the financial incentive.  It's not something they were planning to do and then just decided to release it as a paid mod.  You aren't losing out on something you could have otherwise had for free.  The update was planned only after finding out there was some additional incentive for investing several weeks of their time into making it.  The update would not exist at all if it wasn't for this move. 

Not sure if this was addressed at my comment but to restate it: I personally feel the self-entitled and vicious backlash from a shockingly large number of vocal dissenters is unwarranted.

 

At the same time, though, just checking Chesko's remaining mod pages: Frostfall and the Reddit thread where he posted his point of view, there has been a lot of sympathy (if coupled with some lofty chiding) and offers of donations. The calmer heads of the modding community are pulling together to support one of their own even if there is the usual white-noise of selfish ******s poisoning the well.

 

The reason I place most of the blame on Valve and Bethesda in this is the sheer mismanagement of it. They set up the crooked fairground stall with the take stacked in their favour, the laughable support and returns policy and a demonstable degree of incompetence/ contempt for the work of modders in allowing content to be uploaded without getting the consent of all the contributors.

 

There is no shortage of people who are willing to donate and offer support. But no one wants to be scammed.

 

Who knows, though. Maybe this will help galvanise the community to support mod-makers more now that Nexus has decided to finally update its donation policy.

Edited April 24, 2015 by hazelwolf

[TheDane]

LEGO is not cheap.

Of course not, it's danish. We are all communists here in Europe you know ;) (Like the great self-righteous Lizard from AFK Mods onces proclaimed in all his wisdom and hypocrisy).

[Ganda]

I'm not sure people realize how much 25% is. Do you think your company pays you 25% worth of the revenue you generate? I doubt it. I doubt that I get 25% of the revenue of the tuition from my students. Actually, I've never done the math, and now that I think about it, I probably get about 25%. I do teach two large classes (up to 80 students) though so that probably has something to do with it. But, everyone knows teachers are extremely underpaid. 

 

Anyways, what I mean is that in the real world for your real job you will get much less of the revenue percentage for your work than Valve is offering. Ask anyone in the food service industry if you get 25%. What is the going rate for tipping your waiter/waitress? 15% and $2.15 an hour.

Well, I honestly don't know much about "Real World" jobs, since I never had one, but for online work 25% is incredibly low. Granted, most of the files are modifications and some are things so simple that even 25% is too much, but this is just further evidence of the amount of planning that went into this launch (the cut should be changed by type, if it's original work, modified work or simple tweaks).

 

Now, on to some numbers. I understand that this is something completely new(ish) and modders and users alike are still trying to figure out a lot of things, most importantly prices. I've been playing dota for well over a year now so I have a little experience with this "app store" and I bet some of you have as well. Most modders just have no idea what the price of a mod is, be it Falskaar or changing a value within CK. From dota's community store (the valve store does NOT count in this instance, as it approaches a "retail store" more than the app store the SW clearly is) every item is between 0.03€ (the min for people to get payed 0.01€) and 0.30€, anything above this is a rare (they can go over 200€) or a set.

 

With that in mind, I've made some calculations for RBB, which, at best, is blatantly insignificant when compared to the "beasts" of modding. So, for the latest version I have about 21.8k unique dls, which at the min price valve has set of 0.26€ gives me a little over 1600€. This is clearly several times what I think RBB is worth. What I mean to show with all of this is how ridiculous a 5€ mod and the 0.26€ lower limit are. The most expensive mods, and by this I mean mods that have hundreds of hours put into them, feature original work, have amazing quality and provide complete support (which is VERY important and a point to stress, since you are now getting payed for something you must provide support for that product, whether you want it or not. Valve solved this for dota, and I suspect TF2 as well, by having a small QA team that quickly tests the items voted for by the community. Testing mods for all the above would be nearly impossible though) would be worth 1€ AT MOST and most likely not even that. 

 

Just to finish, when setting a price to something like a mod, you not only have to consider what the user is going to pay for a full load order (the full 255 plugins, plus retextures, remodels, rescripts, etc.) and what the modder is going to get.

 

How much? Do you have any idea? All this new stuff actually made me want to donate a little bit something I can afford to a few selected authors, but if PayPal eats large part of it, I don't know what's worse.

From what i read yesterday, Valve only allows bank-to-bank transfers, not sure if PayPal counts as a bank here... But still, don't forget that you have to pay taxes over that 25% and if you're not from the US you have to pay the taxes to move the money plus the taxes of your own country. This is normal in online payments but a lot of people may not be aware of it.

 

The 100$ thing is pretty standard, not much to say there.

 

One thing to end, and this is what scares me the most, is the copyright issues. Even for original work, up to what point do we own what we upload on nexus? If someone monetizes what we freely uploaded can we use a DMCA takedown? (that will take months if it even works). THIS is the biggest problem with monetization, THIS is what Valve should've invested in, not in setting a ridiculous and greedy lower limit. But hey, I guess greed can turn everyone and they will taste the ire of the internet for it :/

[kryptopyr]

I do understand that the worst comments are all coming from a very vocal minority (hopefully?) of users, but even the comments that aren't outright abusive or threatening are still pretty unsupportive of the mod authors.  The whole "we've got to protect these poor modders from themselves" attitude is getting really tiring.  I don't think Chesko, Isoku or any of the others needed to be protected.  They knew the terms, agreed to the terms, and were apparently willing (if not necessary completely happy) to abide by those terms.  That was, and should be, their right and their choice.  It's not up to the community to make that choice for them or any other individuals and then to claim they are protecting those poor, naive modders from the greedy, villainous companies.

 

Just don't buy the mods if you don't want to support this system.  Straight donations will always be better for the mod authors, no question about that.  But if some people wish to give this system a try, as a producer or consumer, then that should be their right, and they shouldn't have to put up with being treated as a pariah by the modding community.

[EssArrBee]

One thing to end, and this is what scares me the most, is the copyright issues. Even for original work, up to what point do we own what we upload on nexus? If someone monetizes what we freely uploaded can we use a DMCA takedown? (that will take months if it even works). THIS is the biggest problem with monetization, THIS is what Valve should've invested in, not in setting a ridiculous and greedy lower limit. But hey, I guess greed can turn everyone and they will taste the ire of the internet for it :/

Here's a reddit thread from a game dev that goes into some usage issues that you might find informative: https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/33pw0t/licensing_and_mods_coming_from_a_gamer_with_a_bit/

[oqhansoloqo]

I notice that a lot of people here are trying to say how people should react, but this is coming from a balanced and rational stance - that is not the norm.  That's just not the way people, in general, think... unfortunately.  The reality of the way things are is that a lot of people tend to react emotionally to things they feel are "unjust"/"unfair" in a knee-jerk way, especially when it's on the internet and they are not held accountable to their emotional expressions/outbursts (like they might be at work, in a professional environment).  And some of the things people feel are "unjust" are highly subjective and self-centered, when you analyze people and the situations they are reacting to.  Just look at the comments of any online news article (in a U.S. news source, anyway...).  Do you actually expect a bunch of random PC gamers to act any better?  At least I have yet to hear about how Obama has destroyed the world of Skyrim by allowing non-Nords to immigrate in, or how gun-nuts have made swordplay obsolete (or whatever non-relevant political BS).  Thank god that BS hasn't invaded the modding forums.  I say, thank god people at least tend to keep the discussions relevant on the gaming forums.

Edited April 24, 2015 by oqhansoloqo

[Ganda]

Here's a reddit thread from a game dev that goes into some usage issues that you might find informative: https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/33pw0t/licensing_and_mods_coming_from_a_gamer_with_a_bit/

Thanks Ess, that definitely needs to be stickied EVERYWHERE. Now, everyone update your mod descriptions, add the "License" file when you update your mods and start scouting the SW for copies of your files every week.

[EssArrBee]

Thanks Ess, that definitely needs to be stickied EVERYWHERE. Now, everyone update your mod descriptions, add the "License" file when you update your mods and start scouting the SW for copies of your files every week.

Don't worry, I'm only going to steal some of your mods. 

[TechAngel85]

Keeping up with this thread on a phone using tapatalk is crazy...just saying.

[hazelwolf]

Whatever comes of this, if this new venture is to have any legs in the future I think it's clear it will have to do so by its own merits as the public reaction to it just on principle has been damning.

 

Speaking personally i wasn't all that fussed by the idea of paying for any updates to mods I like. It's only fair, really, and it's actually made me think I should start chipping into some of the donate pots on the nexus more often than I currently do.

 

It was that little proviso of "No refunds after 24 hours. For support, ask the mod maker nicely." in the terms and conditions that first made me question it. We all know how lengthy troubleshooting a mod can be, coupled with the financial element, so I could foresee that becoming a big issue.

 

Following that and looking through the particulars regarding how much the mod makers get out of this arrangement (Though if I feel they are being short-changed, there's nothing to stop me donating directly as well, right?) It cemented my misgivings. 

 

It's the organisation and presentation that's flawed, imo, and makes me dubious of the whole endeavour. Not some attachment to a high-falutin' but self serving ideal of a free modding community (to which I contribute nothing much save reams of text)

 

The idea may still work and find its customer-base but it needs a lot of work if I'm to feel as comfortable using it as the Nexus (That and with Chesko gone there isn't anything uploaded yet that I'm all that interested in... apart from maybe SKY UI when it goes up... IF it goes up.)

 

Steam cornered the PC gaming market by providing "A better product than the pirates"... but that was a few years ago. Now? If this is anything to show for it they've lost a lot of their edge.

Edited April 24, 2015 by hazelwolf

[Ganda]

Don't worry, I'm going to steal some of your mods. 

Haha, pirate at will! :D

 

Keeping up with this thread on a phone using tapatalk is crazy...just saying.

 

Ikr, my phone is now skipping every two posts.

It was that little proviso of "No refunds after 24 hours. For support, ask the mod maker nicely." in the terms and conditions that first made me question it. We all know how lengthy troubleshooting a mod can be, coupled with the financial element, so I could foresee that becoming a big issue.

It has the feel of being rushed, much like Skyrim itself was. They are using an incredibly simple model which cannot be applied AT ALL to mods. Clearly made by someone who is not used to dealing with mods or just believes mods are plug n' play, like dota 2.

[dannt]

There goes Arissa. ****. I've waited a year to finally play it, and it seems I might not even get a chance, ever.

I think Arissa is available on Nexus https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/53754/?

 

Edit: Arissa has been removed again.

Edited April 26, 2015 by dannt

[hazelwolf]

Was just looking at the changelogs on the iNeed and Wet & Cold updates.

 

Honestly, the comments sections on the Steam Workshop pages are just vile. Heck I'm used to internet smacktalk but it really is wall to wall whining self-entitlement.

 

Who in their right mind would want to even lift a finger for these people if they'll start doxxing attempts for the sake of chump change?

 

The nexus might have its fools but the steam community... ughh >.<

[Darth_mathias]

i kind of feel sorry for chesko he was invited into this paid "mod experiment" and he has been majorly burned and is even thinking about an exit from nexus https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/33qcaj/the_experiment_has_failed_my_exit_from_the/ this was always going to happen is just a shame it happen to the author of my fav mod frostfall. I personally and selfishly hope that he releases frostfall 3.0 soon but I understand where is is coming from and if he wants to break that's up to him after all the mods are his creations and he can do whatever he wants with them.

[Nozzer66]

Oh yeah the steam community made Nexus look like Playschool with how feral they got. Glad I'm rid of that pile of creaking calamitous junk called Steam.