Paid mods are now available on the workshop

[pStyl3]

Quote of behippo, author of SKSE

 

 

Greetings everyone - it has been a long while since I have been on the forums. However it seems like a good day to make an appearance. Everyone is asking for some "official word" from the SKSE team regarding paid mods which use SKSE. We've gotten a ton of email asking for everything from a clarification on the use of SKSE in paid mods to making a change in our license to ban any monetization of mods using SKSE. Lots of folks are angry. Lots of folks are concerned. Everyone feels that this will be a big change in the modding community.

 

So where do things stand with SKSE? I am going to divide this into two sections: the official stance of the Script Extender team, and then some of my own thoughts.

 

Officially

• SKSE (and all of our other Script Extenders) will remain FREE to use for everyone. We will not charge anyone for it. Ever.
• Creators of mods which depend upon SKSE must make their own choices regarding whether to ask for payment for their mods.
• We will not receive any partial payment from those sales.
• Reasons for #2 and #3: See #1.

This is an important point for us. We built the Script Extenders to allow modders to do things that couldn't otherwise be done. We want more mods to do more cool things. We want individuals and groups to be able to build on our functionality. Folks are free to use SKSE to build their mods. What they do with those mods and how they distribute them is up to them. The mod creators will need to deal with the fallout (good and/or bad) from those decisions.

 

We are working with Valve to get a version of SKSE into the workshop. However it will always be available at our site: https://skse.silverlock.org. We think that by providing SKSE through the workshop we may be able to ease some concerns people have about the software (which has always been an issue) and we can provide an easy way for mods in the Workshop to list us as a dependency. It is early in the process to make this happen, and it may not work, but we are going to give it a try.

 

Personal Thoughts

I've been part of the Bethesda Modding community since I helped ianpatt kick off the Obilivion Script Extender about nine years ago. I've put thousands of hours into OBSE, FOSE, NVSE and SKSE. ianpatt, scruggsywuggsytheferret and many others have put in thousands of hours more. We've never sought any sort of compensation for that work. Our "payback" was in seeing the fabulous mods that people built on top of our extensions and knowing that we've helped make the modding community even better.

 

I've never asked for donations to help pay for the servers which host silverlock.org - even from the other team members. They serve a tremendous amount of traffic (SKSE alone averages nearly 6GB of downloads daily) but my hosting service doesn't charge me any extra for it. I would be paying for the sites whether the Script Extenders existed or not, so I never saw the point of asking for donations.

 

Ian and I also work for software firms with connections to the gaming industry (his much more directly than mine). We simply can't take any money for the Script Extenders, even if we wanted to. Which we don't.

 

But I understand others wanting some sort of compensation for their involvement making mods. There are expenses and time is always a factor. It is not unreasonable. Back when this all started there was no option - mods were forbidden to make any money. It was only a couple of years ago that folks were even allowed to start taking donations. Today all of that changed again. I am not sure what this will do to our community, frankly. I sincerely hope that everyone will continue to contribute to the community and will continue to support the game - and future games in the series.

 

My personal preference is that all the mods remain free for everyone to use. Folks who want to contribute to a modder can donate or purchase a mod through the Workshop. I would hate to have all of the great mods go behind a paywall. Some mods themselves are probably worth some money. The large quests and major overhauls over the years have brought so much to the game that giving back to their creators would be a good thing. But I would prefer it wasn't forced on anyone.

 

Final Thoughts

I know this is not the "valiant stand" that some folks have been clamoring for us to take. They want us to forbid the use of SKSE in any paid mods in the hopes that none of the great mods would ever make it to the paid Workshop. Honestly even if we were inclined to take that approach, I don't think it would work. The Script Extenders themselves are on a fairly wobbly legal footing given what we have to do to make things work. Bethesda has always "looked the other way" as far as that is concerned. Trying to prevent paid mods from happening would be more likely to get the Script Extenders banned than successfully preventing paid mods.

 

I think that the modding community can continue to be a vibrant place. I expect many of the old guard of modders to continue working (as much as they are) and to provide their mods for free as they have always done. And perhaps - just perhaps, the prospect of some reward for their hard work will allow some new amazing mods to be created for this or future games.

 

In any case, we're going to continue doing what we do and enable modders to do more. I expect that when the next game comes along (whether TES VI or Fallout 4) we'll be back trying to extend the scripting functionality for modders.

 

Source

[keithinhanoi]

Okay, I've just found out that regarding the question of proceeds going to the authors of tools or possibly other mods upon which a paid user content mod relies on or was built with the help of, there's an option to select from a list of "Service Providers" who will receive a percentage of Valve's revenue (not the mod author's!)

 

The list, which you can view here, is very short at the moment - just Blender, and curiously, MCM (Mod Configuration Menu). EDIT: I misunderstood what I read on that web page, and actually there are three others on the list of Service Providers, under the heading of "Communities": Nexus Mods, AFK Mods, and Polycount. The NIFScope team - well, jonwd7 - was approached by Valve asking if they wanted to be on the list, and it didn't happen in time for the launch. Read more about this and other interesting information at the AFKMods forum thread on the SW offering paid mods.

 

The same web page also addresses - in a very general way - my question about what happens when someone offers a paid user content mod on SW which uses content with a license prohibiting monetized distribution:

 

You must have the necessary rights to post any content that you post to the Steam Workshop, whether it is for sale or not. If you upload copyrighted content that you or your contributors do not have the rights to distribute, then you may forfeit all earned revenue from the item, may be liable for damages and compensation, and may be banned from future participation in this Workshop or the Steam Community in general.

 

So I guess that takes care of any mutually conflicting licence agreements - it's the user's fault, kick them out, and make them pay for their transgressions. It still strikes me as a really big grey area when I start considering real world scenarios, however.

Edited April 24, 2015 by keithinhanoi

[CJ2311]

https://i.imgur.com/wW5j5yu.jpg

 

Yes, ladies and gentlemen. Valve is now effectively preventing modders from asking for donations. If you want money for your mods, you have to use the monetization option. It's just sickening.

 

EDIT: The link might have actually been removed because it was a shortened link, will update if I learn more about this.

Edited April 24, 2015 by CJ2311

[keithinhanoi]

I'll make this a new post. I just almost can't keep up with it all....

 

If you want to see a list of Paid Skyrim Workshop mods that have been submitted and are currently under review, look no further than here.

 

[sarcasm] Personally, I cannot wait for approval of Golden Potato, an incredible bargain at $9.99. [/sarcasm]

 

I laughed so hard I cried. In fact, I'm still crying.

https://i.imgur.com/wW5j5yu.jpg

 

Yes, ladies and gentlemen. Valve is now effectively preventing modders from asking for donations. If you want money for your mods, you have to use the monetization option. It's just sickening.

 

...and I'm counting the days until Nexus is asked / told by Valve to remove the donation system - not that people ever used it much (full disclosure: I have donated to exactly four people, and just finally paid for 3 months of premium access at Nexus.)

[hishutup]

That may only be on the steam store which is understandable.

Now if you start to see links on the nexus to disappear then grab the pitchforks but for now wait.

[Neovalen]

I found this mildly amusing.

 

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=430749163

[CJ2311]

Some people are claiming the donation link on that mod has been removed because it was using a link shortener. I hope that's the actual truth because otherwise things would go even worse...

[obrother]

I'm wondering if this would have happened if more people donated to the authors via Nexus.

I think the issue is that the modding community -- e.g., Nexus -- has failed to develop an effective solution for collecting donations that matter.  The donate button can't really be an effective model for this.  Let me share my perspective as an example: 

 

I can afford to donate money to mod authors, and I have to some, but understanding mod authors don't get many donations, it feels insulting to donate some small amount to an author for their hard work.  I can see where some mod authors would appreciate it regardless, but it just feels wrong... "Thanks for the hundreds of hours of work... here's a dollar for your time".  When I've donated in the past, I try to donate an amount that seems more commensurate with the time and effort I know they've put into it their work.  The problem is I've downloaded thousands of mods, I have hundreds of active mods, most of which are outstanding (that's why I use them), and the math doesn't add up, even if you're just donating a dollar.  Since I can't justify spending hundreds of dollars to give money to everyone, I don't really donate to anyone even knowing deserve it.  

 

By contrast, if making contributions was a more prominent focus of a community resource like Nexus, and if a large percentage of this community would be willing to make some contribution knowing they're doing their part to support the work of the authors of the mods they use and like, regardless of how small that contribution, it would seem the numbers could add up pretty quickly, even if it's just lots of little numbers.

 

I also think the key to understanding and dealing with the new pay area is that it will depend on the cooperation of the mod authors who develop the outstanding mods we use.  Many of those authors are here and on other community forums, reading these posts and posting themselves.  They are members of this community -- some of its most influential members -- and even those that have uploaded mods to the pay area take that community membership seriously (which should be obvious if you read what they have to say).  Attacking them obviously isn't the answer, and I would argue that working together in some organized fashion probably is the answer, not only because it might offer some more effective model than the donate button, but also because it would deprive the pay area of the resource it depends on for content. 

[Hazzardevil]

Some mods are being taken down by Valve, a fishing mod has been removed after being a waste of everyone's time and money. It was a paid early access mod that didn't work. So we've managed to put together the three worst things about Steam right now. 

 

I say take out the current method of buying it like DLC, we have no way of getting thigns fixed without "asking politely" in Valve's own words. So if a hypothetical Skyrim update came along and broke a mod I paid for, if the modder is gone I'm out of luck.

 

People on Reddit are saying to email Gabe Newell, since he responds sometimes, I'm tempted to do it myself.

[Neovalen]

Some mods are being taken down by Valve, a fishing mod has been removed after being a waste of everyone's time and money. It was a paid early access mod that didn't work. So we've managed to put together the three worst things about Steam right now. 

 

I say take out the current method of buying it like DLC, we have no way of getting thigns fixed without "asking politely" in Valve's own words. So if a hypothetical Skyrim update came along and broke a mod I paid for, if the modder is gone I'm out of luck.

 

People on Reddit are saying to email Gabe Newell, since he responds sometimes, I'm tempted to do it myself.

That was "Art of the Catch" by Chesko. It was pulled, I imagine, because Fore stated FNIS cannot be used for monetized modding. The mod required FNIS to do the animations.

[werewulfking]

I just read the EULA of the creation kit with regards to the new material somebody can produce. It seems like the exact same case as with the Facebook license for pictures you upload there. But honestly in both cases it is very debatable if the companies have the right to demand such big and all encompassing licenses. At least I think so and here in Germany the Facebook agreement was already challenged by consumerprotection agencies.

 

Whats your opinion?

[Octopuss]

https://i.imgur.com/wW5j5yu.jpg

 

Yes, ladies and gentlemen. Valve is now effectively preventing modders from asking for donations. If you want money for your mods, you have to use the monetization option. It's just sickening.

I just threw up in my mouth a little. That can't be true.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Octopuss

[kryptopyr]

I'd love to have the option on Nexus to set my own automatic download fee.  Like having the options to set a donation value of 0.01 or 0.05 for each mod I download.  Even I could afford a penny per download.  It seems like nothing, but if many users did something similar, the it would certainly add up over time.  Maybe not to huge, life-changing piles of money, but probably more than most authors will ever receive in donations.

 

I certainly would never feel insulted to receive a small donation, and I'm pretty sure most other mod authors would feel the same.  I consider any donation to be just about the highest compliment I can receive from a user.  The larger issue with small donations is that Paypal eats most of it.

 

 

https://i.imgur.com/wW5j5yu.jpg

Yes, ladies and gentlemen. Valve is now effectively preventing modders from asking for donations. If you want money for your mods, you have to use the monetization option. It's just sickening.

 

Of course Valve isn't going to let you beg for donations on their site.  That's an attempt to subvert their payment system.  They also aren't going to let you put your own Paypal buttons in the mod description.  I would have been shocked if they had allowed it.  In itself that should certainly not be taken as a threat to other sites like Nexus.

 

What I'm curious about is if they'll crack down on modders linking to free versions of their mods on Nexus.  I would sort of expect them to, since this could also be taken as a way to subvert their payment system.

[Octopuss]

The larger issue with small donations is that Paypal eats most of it.

How much? Do you have any idea? All this new stuff actually made me want to donate a little bit something I can afford to a few selected authors, but if PayPal eats large part of it, I don't know what's worse.

[werewulfking]

How much? Do you have any idea? All this new stuff actually made me want to donate a little bit something I can afford to a few selected authors, but if PayPal eats large part of it, I don't know what's worse.

Yeah just set up a paypal account and wanted to start thinking about which mods I would like to donate to but if it really is a bigger chunk for paypal then I would have to restrict it even more.