TechAngel85 Posted September 13, 2013 Posted September 13, 2013 Hmm... What about the resolution on the others? It's going to bother me until I do it, other locations of course but still... I'm going to get in game with my Vanilla profile and scout the locations that way while I'm waiting on your response that way things are as unbiased as possible.Please use the saves I created. Mine are clean saves based on a clean character, and my saves represent 7 locations in different regions of Skyrim, capturing the various landscapes. This way we have a direct compare. Savegames are linked in the OP What mod are active in your "vanilla" clean saves? Whenever I've ever used your "vanilla" saves that you've uploaded, I also end up getting the "missing content" warning before loading them from my vanilla profile. My vanilla profile in only the vanilla game files with the addition of the Unofficial Patches. Anything more and it wouldn't be a vanilla game. I do use Immersive HUD because it makes taking screenshots a lot easier, but if I upload a save I always clean it from having iHUD present so it's pure vanilla.Your screenshots are darker than mine are you sure your setting are ultra and that you aren't using your modified files from the LOD mods and such? They look almost the same but something is off the contrast in yours is different or something.I am testing against the proposed core background ... see the MT restricted thread for details I went ahead and further examined the other install options for RS&M, and it looks like all meshes are the same as the ones I had used in the original compare (at least with respect to stretching if not parallax). OK, here is the problem (and I hope that someone else at least acknowledges that this is indeed a problem o_O ) Left image is RS&M Classic Gray with its own meshes ... wow, look at that stretched and unwieldy textures! Right image is same but with No Stretching & SMIM meshes ... FIXED! I'll say it again: Unless we overwrite the RS&M meshes with those from No Stretching and SMIM, the mountain textures are a backslide to the unfixed vanilla meshes. This is a problem. Anyone disagree with my assessment?In all honesty, I don't see any stretching. I even looked at them in full size outside of the gallery and still could see any. I see some vertical meshes and have been flipped to horizontal meshes in the "fixed" version; however, whether vertical of horizontal they still appear to be the same quality just with a different orientation. The other changes between the two versions also don't appear to be stretching to me. Just different meshes. Perhaps it's the screens or the distance, but I honestly don't see anything that I would call stretching. I will test in my own setup to confirm or debunk. Where in the Core load order are you placing Rocking Stones?
Guest Posted September 13, 2013 Posted September 13, 2013 OP gallery updated. I dropped several screens that are obviously never going to make it. I'll add Sparrow's new optional normal once he is done with it.It's not normals, I already did those. It's diffuse textures. I have only hopped in the game about once to check them out (as I'm still building the installer) but they looked quite nice. Here are the 2k versions: Edit: Not happy with them yet. By the way... Light and dark comparisons on the mountains are pointless. That is only for water rocks. I suppose now though with these new files you could overwrite the light images. :) Cheers buddy.
z929669 Posted September 13, 2013 Posted September 13, 2013 What mod are active in your "vanilla" clean saves? Whenever I've ever used your "vanilla" saves that you've uploaded' date=' I also end up getting the "missing content" warning before loading them from my vanilla profile. My vanilla profile in only the vanilla game files with the addition of the Unofficial Patches. Anything more and it wouldn't be a vanilla game. I do use Immersive HUD because it makes taking screenshots a lot easier, but if I upload a save I always clean it from having iHUD present so it's pure vanilla.[/quote']My bad. They were sourced from clean saves, but they contain the proposed Core setup not (see the mods listed in the restricted MT guide) ... regardless, just click 'Yes'! It won't hurt you or your computer ... promise!In all honesty, I don't see any stretching. I even looked at them in full size outside of the gallery and still could see any. I see some vertical meshes and have been flipped to horizontal meshes in the "fixed" version; however, whether vertical of horizontal they still appear to be the same quality just with a different orientation. The other changes between the two versions also don't appear to be stretching to me. Just different meshes. Perhaps it's the screens or the distance, but I honestly don't see anything that I would call stretching. I will test in my own setup to confirm or debunk. Where in the Core load order are you placing Rocking Stones?lol. Those are stretched textures, and the only reason you can't see it is because they are high res. Load up that screen in vanilla, and you will see what I mean ... Sparrow, could you help me out here? Anyway, orientation of the texture is important, and if you use your arrow keys to flip back and forth quickly between the two (do it a lot if you have to), you will notice that MOST of the rocks in that screen change, and the proportions are much better in the 'fixed' version ....
Hein84 Posted September 13, 2013 Posted September 13, 2013 Hmm... What about the resolution on the others? It's going to bother me until I do it, other locations of course but still... I'm going to get in game with my Vanilla profile and scout the locations that way while I'm waiting on your response that way things are as unbiased as possible.Please use the saves I created. Mine are clean saves based on a clean character, and my saves represent 7 locations in different regions of Skyrim, capturing the various landscapes. This way we have a direct compare. Savegames are linked in the OPWhat mod are active in your "vanilla" clean saves? Whenever I've ever used your "vanilla" saves that you've uploaded, I also end up getting the "missing content" warning before loading them from my vanilla profile. My vanilla profile in only the vanilla game files with the addition of the Unofficial Patches. Anything more and it wouldn't be a vanilla game. I do use Immersive HUD because it makes taking screenshots a lot easier, but if I upload a save I always clean it from having iHUD present so it's pure vanilla.Your screenshots are darker than mine are you sure your setting are ultra and that you aren't using your modified files from the LOD mods and such? They look almost the same but something is off the contrast in yours is different or something.I am testing against the proposed core background ... see the MT restricted thread for details I went ahead and further examined the other install options for RS&M, and it looks like all meshes are the same as the ones I had used in the original compare (at least with respect to stretching if not parallax). OK, here is the problem (and I hope that someone else at least acknowledges that this is indeed a problem o_O ) Left image is RS&M Classic Gray with its own meshes ... wow, look at that stretched and unwieldy textures! Right image is same but with No Stretching & SMIM meshes ... FIXED! I'll say it again: Unless we overwrite the RS&M meshes with those from No Stretching and SMIM, the mountain textures are a backslide to the unfixed vanilla meshes. This is a problem. Anyone disagree with my assessment?In all honesty, I don't see any stretching. I even looked at them in full size outside of the gallery and still could see any. I see some vertical meshes and have been flipped to horizontal meshes in the "fixed" version; however, whether vertical of horizontal they still appear to be the same quality just with a different orientation. The other changes between the two versions also don't appear to be stretching to me. Just different meshes. Perhaps it's the screens or the distance, but I honestly don't see anything that I would call stretching. I will test in my own setup to confirm or debunk. Where in the Core load order are you placing Rocking Stones?To be honest, RS&M shows even less stretching than No Stretching Meshes, during editing the UV-maps I upscaled some of them slightly ;)
Guest Posted September 13, 2013 Posted September 13, 2013 Z i'll send you some shots when I can with your saves. I need to refine them some more. Making them lighter has lost some detail which I knew would happen. Edit: Probably going to leave it. Making them lighter makes them look weird, even with detail overlays.
TechAngel85 Posted September 13, 2013 Posted September 13, 2013 Again, where in the proposed load order are you loading these textures? Btw, you have at least one one in that load order you shouldn't. Nord armor fix was incorporated into USKP a long time ago. EDIT: I've just set up a profile in MO for the proposed Core load order. I'll just place the mods at the location of AOF in the load order.
z929669 Posted September 13, 2013 Posted September 13, 2013 Again, where in the proposed load order are you loading these textures? Btw, you have at least one one in that load order you shouldn't. Nord armor fix was incorporated into USKP a long time ago. EDIT:I've just set up a profile in MO for the proposed Core load order. I'll just place the mods at the location of AOF in the load order.Well, B&B technically should be below Water (Sparrow can confirm the ideal placement, but it says to overwrite Water and other conflicts): My curreent package list: ++ 000 - Skyrim - Animations BSA.7z (6F70599E) (Installed) ++ 001 - Skyrim - Interface BSA.7z (ED48DB4A) (Installed) ++ 002 - Skyrim - Meshes BSA.7z (36D58D55) (Installed) ++ 003 - Skyrim - Misc BSA.7z (6EC80093) (Installed) ++ 004 - Skyrim - Shaders BSA.7z (105C9B82) (Installed) ++ 005 - Skyrim - Sounds BSA.7z (C6920669) (Installed) ++ 006 - Skyrim - Voices BSA.7z (16540A13) (Installed) ++ 007 - Skyrim - VoicesExtra BSA.7z (07A59202) (Installed) ++ 008 - Dawnguard BSA.7z (606F6CF8) (Installed) ++ 009 - Hearthfires BSA.7z (3A08E731) (Installed) ++ 010 - Dragonborn BSA.7z (80AAFF72) (Installed) ++ 011 - Update BSA.7z (6DF52706) (Installed) ++ 012 - Vanilla Optimized Textures_H-H-H.7z (7FBF64B2) (Installed) 014 - == B - Utilities == 015 - == D - Fixes == ++ 016 - D_Appropriately Attired Jarls_BAIN-v1.1.1-23793.7z (739E27B7) (Installed) ++ 017 - D_Argonian Decapitation Fix_BAIN-v1.0-22624.7z (19B30E6C) (Installed) ++ 018 - D_Bowlegged Jump Fix_BAIN-v1.1-7416.7z (94FAF991) (Installed) ++ 019 - D_Brawl Bugs Patch_BAIN-v1.0-24020.7z (663FF8E7) (Installed) ++ 020 - D_Consistent Older People_BAIN-v1.6-19730.7z (18B8A9BD) (Installed) ++ 021 - D_Cursor Fix_BAIN-v1.3-36125.7z (DBB394B5) (Installed) ++ 022 - D_Dead Body Collision Fix_BAIN-v2.4-30947.7z (90EA6685) (Installed) ++ 023 - D_Fast Travel Timescale Fix_BAIN-v1.0-19389.7z (CC1A0B4E) (Installed) ++ 024 - D_Fuz_Ro_Doh_BAIN-v6.0-14884.7z (E5C7ACC9) (Installed) ++ 025 - D_Guard Dialogue Overhaul_BAIN-v1.3-23390.7z (605731AD) (Installed) ++ 026 - D_Nitpick_6.0-19556-4-0.7z (9E668EC5) (Installed) ++ 027 - D_Skyrim Project Optimization_BAIN-v1.51-32505.7z (AA6C9659) (Installed) ++ 028 - D_Tail Twist Fix_BAIN-v1.1-32949.7z (6F9C513F) (Installed) ++ 029 - D_Trade & Barter_BAIN-v1.2-34612.7z (C72201D3) (Installed) ++ 030 - D_Unofficial Dawnguard Patch_BAIN-v1.2.4-23491.7z (AF4099A2) (Installed) ++ 031 - D_Unofficial Hearthfire Patch_BAIN-v1.1.2-25127.7z (699DE1BF) (Installed) ++ 032 - D_Unofficial Dragonborn Patch_BAIN-v1.0.5-31083.7z (6D0BBB83) (Installed) ++ 033 - D_Unofficial High Resolution Patch_BAIN-v1.1.2-31255.7z (0407B844) (Installed) ++ 034 - D_Distant Decal Fix_BAIN-v1.2-31982.7z (FF2133A7) (Installed) ++ 035 - D_Unofficial Skyrim Patch_BAIN-v1.3.3c-19.7z (425C9154) (Installed) ++ 036 - D_Weapon & Armor Fixes_BAIN-v3.1-34093.7z (26739BF5) (Installed) ++ 037 - D_Acquisitive Soul Gems_BAIN-v2.4-5312.7z (61E5EAB3) (Installed) 038 - == D-Non-STEP == 046 - == E - Interface == ++ 047 - E_Better Dialogue Controls_BAIN-v1.2-27371.7z (25A02B05) (Installed) ++ 048 - E_Better MessageBox Controls_BAIN-v1._2-28170.7z (A52D4AF0) (Installed) ++ 049 - E_Lockpicking Interface_BAIN-v1.2-2845.7z (95212C76) (Installed) ++ 050 - E_Skill Interface_BAIN-v6.0-7308.7z (F454E5B6) (Installed) ++ 051 - E_Skill Interface (Dawnguard)_BAIN-v5.0-7308.7z (54E28D4E) (Installed) ++ 052 - E_SkyUI_BAIN-v4.1-3863.7z (C8272DAC) (Installed) ++ 053 - E_STATUS_BAIN-v1.96-32657.7z (720D32CB) (Installed) 054 - == E-Non-STEP == 077 - == F - Conflicting Graphics == ++ 078 - G_Rocking Stones & Mountains_BAIN-v4.3-38004.7z (B95B9198) (Installed) ++ 079 - F_Ruins Clutter Improved_BAIN-v2.5-14227.7z (5A086E20) (Installed) ++ 080 - F_No stretching Full_BAIN-v2.1-26126.7z (5A790FEA) (Installed) ++ 081 - J_Realistic Smoke & Embers_BAIN-v1.4-836.7z (F63B5EA4) (Installed) ++ 082 - F_Ultimate HD Fire Effects_BAIN-v1.9-28642.7z (98E849F8) (Installed) ++ 083 - F_SMIM_BAIN-v1.53-8655.7z (95BDE24B) (Installed) ++ 084 - F_SRO_BAIN-v1.6.7z (F0ADB825) (Installed) ++ 085 - F_HD Misc_BAIN-v1.0-3595.7z (EA03B6B0) (Installed) ++ 086 - F_Food & Ingredients - Performance_BAIN-v1.6-1192.7z (DB3DAF3B) (Installed) ++ 087 - F_Tobes Highres Textures_BAIN-v1.2-1123.7z (306A9306) (Installed) ++ 088 - F_Enhanced Distant Terrain 2_BAIN-v1.3-39394.7z (B8BB364C) (Installed) ++ 089 - F_Quality World Map_BAIN-v8.0-4929.7z (22334214) (Installed) 090 - == F-Non-STEP == 094 - == G - Landscapes & Environment == ++ 095 - G_AOF Detailed Mountains_BAIN-v2.1-4805.7z (BDA6E9F7) (Installed) ++ 096 - G_Alternative Mountains_BAIN-v1.0-5504.7z (C99C6D8E) (Installed) ++ 097 - G_Brown Mountains & Rocks_BAIN-v1.3-23870.7z (D6D417A3) (Installed) ++ 098 - G_Superior Rocks_BAIN-v1.1-37256.7z (1F32D923) (Installed) ++ 099 - G_Skyrim Flora Overhaul_BAIN-141.7z (26288C9B) (Installed) ++ 100 - G_Detailed Terrain & Tree LOD_BAIN-v2.1-17984.7z (C0BAD4E3) (Installed) ++ 101 - G_Dragon Glyphs-Fixed_BAIN-v2.1-27095.7z (61C42102) (Installed) ++ 102 - G_Enhanced Night Skyrim - Medium Stars_BAIN-v0.4-85.7z (20028A3E) (Installed) ++ 103 - G_HQ LODs_BAIN-v2.1-4834.7z (AA65BB67) (Installed) ++ 104 - G_Hybrids Plants & Herbs_BAIN-v4.0-1546.7z (024CC733) (Installed) ++ 105 - G_Moss Rocks_BAIN-v1.31-31856.7z (44FEF2E2) (Installed) ++ 106 - G_Moss Rocks DB_BAIN-v1.0-40944.7z (E6DCF129) (Installed) ++ 107 - G_Point The Way_BAIN-v1.0.1a-33393.7z (1A3349EE) (Installed) ++ 108 - G_Real Ice_BAIN-v3.0-5388.7z (3A7CAF71) (Installed) ++ 109 - G_Realistic Mushrooms_BAIN-v1.1-29935.7z (5003C8C2) (Installed) ++ 110 - G_Realistic Tundra Moss_BAIN-v1.4-28292.7z (5BB7DF4D) (Installed) ++ 111 - G_SkyFalls plus SkyMills_BAIN-v2.0-40564.7z (FE39CF8A) (Installed) ++ 112 - G_Terrain Bump_BAIN-1.4b-4964.7z (2D2F398C) (Installed) ++ 113 - G_TreesHD_BAIN-v1.6-3812.7z (74B69012) (Installed) ++ 114 - G_Visible Windows_BAIN-v1.2-6971.7z (8BE9D275) (Installed) ++ 115 - G_Whitrun Trellis_BAIN-v1.1-1647.7z (26940A5D) (Installed) ++ 116 - G_WATER_BAIN-v1.8-13268.7z (BE353DE6) (Installed) ++ 117 - G_Windmills Resized_BAIN-v1.1-30026.7z (49942AE7) (Installed) ++ 118 - G_Bigger & Boulder_BAIN-v1.1-41939.7z (4B0A78D0) (Installed) 119 - == G-Non-STEP == 149 - == H - Characters & Creatures == 165 - == H-Non-STEP == 191 - == I - Clothing & Equipment== 209 - == I-Non-STEP == 223 - == J - Animations & Effects == 232 - == J-Non-STEP == 252 - == K - Clutter & Miscellaneous == 274 - == K-Non-STEP == 290 - == L - Sound == 304 - == L-Non-STEP == 318 - == M - Gameplay == ++ 329 - M_Scenic Carriages_BAIN-v1.2a-15094.7z (6894E2AC) (Installed) 334 - == M-Non-STEP == 390 - == P - Optional Packs == ++ 398 - P_Revamped Exterior Fog_BAIN-v1.0-9930.7z (30D8913F) (Installed) 404 - ==Last== Hmm... What about the resolution on the others? It's going to bother me until I do it, other locations of course but still... I'm going to get in game with my Vanilla profile and scout the locations that way while I'm waiting on your response that way things are as unbiased as possible.Please use the saves I created. Mine are clean saves based on a clean character, and my saves represent 7 locations in different regions of Skyrim, capturing the various landscapes. This way we have a direct compare. Savegames are linked in the OPWhat mod are active in your "vanilla" clean saves? Whenever I've ever used your "vanilla" saves that you've uploaded, I also end up getting the "missing content" warning before loading them from my vanilla profile. My vanilla profile in only the vanilla game files with the addition of the Unofficial Patches. Anything more and it wouldn't be a vanilla game. I do use Immersive HUD because it makes taking screenshots a lot easier, but if I upload a save I always clean it from having iHUD present so it's pure vanilla.Your screenshots are darker than mine are you sure your setting are ultra and that you aren't using your modified files from the LOD mods and such? They look almost the same but something is off the contrast in yours is different or something.I am testing against the proposed core background ... see the MT restricted thread for details I went ahead and further examined the other install options for RS&M, and it looks like all meshes are the same as the ones I had used in the original compare (at least with respect to stretching if not parallax). OK, here is the problem (and I hope that someone else at least acknowledges that this is indeed a problem o_O ) Left image is RS&M Classic Gray with its own meshes ... wow, look at that stretched and unwieldy textures! Right image is same but with No Stretching & SMIM meshes ... FIXED! I'll say it again: Unless we overwrite the RS&M meshes with those from No Stretching and SMIM, the mountain textures are a backslide to the unfixed vanilla meshes. This is a problem. Anyone disagree with my assessment?In all honesty, I don't see any stretching. I even looked at them in full size outside of the gallery and still could see any. I see some vertical meshes and have been flipped to horizontal meshes in the "fixed" version; however, whether vertical of horizontal they still appear to be the same quality just with a different orientation. The other changes between the two versions also don't appear to be stretching to me. Just different meshes. Perhaps it's the screens or the distance, but I honestly don't see anything that I would call stretching. I will test in my own setup to confirm or debunk. Where in the Core load order are you placing Rocking Stones?To be honest, RS&M shows even less stretching than No Stretching Meshes, during editing the UV-maps I upscaled some of them slightly ;)Just saying that the vertical striations in the center rocks look stretched out compared to their horizontal counterparts. Also, in every screen that I see a difference between your mesh-texture mappings and those used against SMIM and NS, the proportions and orientations on the latter look more correct. In the example above, the vertical striations do not contrast properly with the adjacent textures. The 'fixed' versions really do though. Also, wherever the two differ that I have looked, your texture proportions are a match to the original vanilla proportions ... I have looked at a lot of texture compares against vanilla unfixed meshes, and while I love your textures, I would much rather wrap them around the NS/SMIM meshes. They are definitely different as the screens themselves show I am no expert on the mechanics benind meshes by any means ... just observing some effects and applying some logic.
z929669 Posted September 13, 2013 Posted September 13, 2013 OP updated with latest compares from B&B (fourth image in each set) I am really liking the latest efforts from Sparrow. Looking at all of these textures, I must say that I find it difficult to choose between Alternative Mountains, Bigger & Boulder, Rocking Stones and AOF. Alternative Mountains - Definitely the best "vanilla-strict" enhancement. It adds much more detail to close-up rocks and looks almost exactly like vanilla far away. A bit more noise and bump, but all-in-all, a great vanilla replacement. Bigger & Boulder - A very realistic igneous rock retex. It looks fantastic close up. My only nits at this point are that I'd like to see just a tiny sprinkle of yellow-green in the color maps to warm them up just a bit. Also, there are some areas where I can still see some dimpling breaking up otherwise straight edges of the rock facets ... again, these are very minor nits that I am calling out since the author is watching :P Superior Rocks - Not a bad replacer, but it is not quite in the same league as these others, IMO. Rocking Stones - I pretty much hold this one in very high regard. My only nits are that the meshes conflict with some of the well-known mesh replacement fixes and some of the distant textures lose a bit of detail ... not sure if this is an effect of the parallax. Also, I admit that these are not ENB compares, and that this mod might be a significant improvement with ENB; however, that is beyond scope. AOF - It is currently STEP:Core, and I am not sure it will or should remain so. It always has been the best vanilla mountain retex ... until now? I am really not sure, but I am favoring Alternative mountains for Core just slightly at this very moment ... but who knows in one or two minutes?
TechAngel85 Posted September 13, 2013 Posted September 13, 2013 Okay, I was able to put together a little analysis before bed. Here it is... These are the original HQ PNGs so they may take a second to load:https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zok1r3pt3xd8l1x/qJTTSQHer1 First Compare SetAs you can clearly see here, the meshes didn't change from the second to the third compare. This means Rocking Stones, in fact, has incorporated the No Stretching meshes. NS was not installed in the RS shot. Second Compare SetIn the third compare here where No Stretching isn't install, you can see in certain areas the meshes are the same as in the second where No Stretching is installed. More proof that Rocking Stones uses the No Stretching meshes. However, you notice it's all not the same this time. It's also different from the Vanilla meshes, only leaving that some of these meshes are custom to Rocking Stones. In the forth compare, with No Stretching overwriting these custom meshes, a close investigation (at least in my opinion) reveals that the No Stretching meshes in this shot look worse than the custom meshes included in Rocking Stones. Third/Fourth Compare SetHere are the vertical places that have been brought into question as being stated that it's stretching. All three meshes look different to me. None of this appears to be stretching to me either. Looks rather intended, in fact. You be the judge. After trying to find "stretched" textures with Rocking Stone for a good hour, I couldn't. I continually found more of the above, where the No Stretching meshes are being used and where they aren't, then there was what appeared to be a custom texture. I found no vanilla meshes that I could see either (at least from my investigation) even when using Z's saves.
TechAngel85 Posted September 13, 2013 Posted September 13, 2013 I also just checked out all the meshes for mountains in Nifskope. They're all exactly the same from Rocking Stones as No Stretching with a few exceptions. A couple are actually higher detailed meshes than in No Stretching and a couple (2) have artistic changes; however, still aren't vanilla.
z929669 Posted September 13, 2013 Posted September 13, 2013 Okay, I was able to put together a little analysis before bed. Here it is... These are the original HQ PNGs so they may take a second to load. Vanilla >> Vanilla + No Stretching >> Rocking Stones (No Stretching not installed) As you can clearly see here, the meshes didn't change from the second to the third compare. This means Rocking Stones, in fact, has incorporated the No Stretching meshes. Vanilla >> Vanilla + No Stretching >> Rocking Stones (No Stretching not installed) >> Rocking Stones + No Stretching In the third compare here where No Stretching isn't install, you can see in certain areas the meshes are the same as in the second where No Stretching is installed. More proof that Rocking Stones uses the No Stretching meshes. However, you notice it's all not the same this time. It's also different from the Vanilla meshes, only leaving that some of these meshes are custom to Rocking Stones. In the forth compare, with No Stretching overwriting these custom meshes, a close investigation (at least in my opinion) reveals that the No Stretching meshes in this shot look worse than the custom meshes included in Rocking Stones.This logic is incorrect. Where the meshes do not change rather likely means that No Stretching did not apply in the first place ;) Definitely not proof that the NS meshes were used where 2 & 3 match. See my comment following about SMIM.Vanilla >> Vanilla + No Stretching >> Rocking Stones (No Stretching not installed) Here are the vertical places that have been brought into question as being stated that it's stretching. All three meshes look different to me. None of this appears to be stretching to me either. Looks rather intended, in fact. You be the judge. After trying to find "stretched" textures with Rocking Stone for a good hour, I couldn't. I continually found more of the above, where the No Stretching meshes are being used and where they aren't, then there was what appeared to be a custom texture. I found no vanilla meshes that I could see either (at least from my investigation) even when using Z's saves.Tech, your pages aren't even loading, so I am guessing that it will be quite awhile. (see below) Also, you forgot SMIM. Several of the rock textures we are looking at are affected by SMIM, and SMIM overwrites No Stretching in our load order ... you will need NS + SMIM for an analogous compare in order to reproduce the effects I am referring to ;) Also, I did use the No Stretching and SMIM meshes in my vanilla compares in the OP, and only RS&M replaces the meshes, so RS&M has changed some things that I think the mesh replacements fixed quite nicely, and some of these changes are clearly more close to the original vanilla state These are the Meshes that RS&M uses, that I propose should be overwritten by SMIM: meshes\landscape\mountains\mountaincliff03.nifmeshes\landscape\mountains\mountaincliff04.nifmeshes\landscape\mountains\mountaincliffcrevasse.nifmeshes\landscape\mountains\mountaincliffsm01.nifmeshes\landscape\mountains\mountaintrim01.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockanimalden01.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockl01.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockl02.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockl03.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockl05.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockm01.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockm02.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockm03.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockm04.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockpilel01.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockpiles02.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockpiles03.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockpiles04.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rocks02.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rocks03.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\cairns\rockcairnevil01.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\cairns\rockcairnevil02.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\cairns\rockcairnevil03.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\cairns\rockcairnevil04.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\wetrocks\rockl01wet.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\wetrocks\rockm03wet.nif ... that is quite a lot of material, although I am not certain which portions of our screens they correspond to. EDIT: Tech, please remove the PNG from the post and simply provide a link to your gallery as I have done in the OP. These are too unwieldy for a forum post. TIA
TechAngel85 Posted September 13, 2013 Posted September 13, 2013 Okay, I was able to put together a little analysis before bed. Here it is... These are the original HQ PNGs so they may take a second to load. Vanilla >> Vanilla + No Stretching >> Rocking Stones (No Stretching not installed) As you can clearly see here, the meshes didn't change from the second to the third compare. This means Rocking Stones, in fact, has incorporated the No Stretching meshes. Vanilla >> Vanilla + No Stretching >> Rocking Stones (No Stretching not installed) >> Rocking Stones + No Stretching In the third compare here where No Stretching isn't install, you can see in certain areas the meshes are the same as in the second where No Stretching is installed. More proof that Rocking Stones uses the No Stretching meshes. However, you notice it's all not the same this time. It's also different from the Vanilla meshes, only leaving that some of these meshes are custom to Rocking Stones. In the forth compare, with No Stretching overwriting these custom meshes, a close investigation (at least in my opinion) reveals that the No Stretching meshes in this shot look worse than the custom meshes included in Rocking Stones.This logic is incorrect. Where the meshes do not change rather likely means that No Stretching did not apply in the first place ;) Definitely not proof that the NS meshes were used where 2 & 3 match. See my comment following about SMIM.Logic is sound and I purposefully didn't include SMIM to put to rest that No Stretching meshes aren't being used when the author himself states they are. You're essentially saying Hein84 is lying by saying they're not. :confused:Therefore, I checked it out myself, and in fact, they are. Both screen shots and NifSkope investigations prove this. I'll circle the ares in Photoshop if need be. There are areas in vanilla that are changed by NS. Uninstall NS and just use Rocking Stones, and these areas (meshes) remained the same as if NS was install. This is proof that RS is using the NS meshes. Further investigation using NifSkope (just to overkill it) proved most the meshes identical to NS.Vanilla >> Vanilla + No Stretching >> Rocking Stones (No Stretching not installed) Here are the vertical places that have been brought into question as being stated that it's stretching. All three meshes look different to me. None of this appears to be stretching to me either. Looks rather intended, in fact. You be the judge. After trying to find "stretched" textures with Rocking Stone for a good hour, I couldn't. I continually found more of the above, where the No Stretching meshes are being used and where they aren't, then there was what appeared to be a custom texture. I found no vanilla meshes that I could see either (at least from my investigation) even when using Z's saves.Tech, your pages aren't even loading, so I am guessing that it will be quite awhile. Also, you forgot SMIM. Several of the rock textures we are looking at are affected by SMIM, and SMIM overwrites No Stretching in our load order ... you will need NS + SMIM for an analogous compare in order to reproduce the effects I am referring to ;) Also, I did use the No Stretching and SMIM meshes in my vanilla compares in the OP, and only RS&M replaces the meshes, so RS&M has changed some things that I think the mesh replacements fixed quite nicely, and some of these changes are clearly more close to the original vanilla state These are the Meshes that RS&M uses, that I propose should be overwritten by SMIM: meshes\landscape\mountains\mountaincliff03.nifmeshes\landscape\mountains\mountaincliff04.nifmeshes\landscape\mountains\mountaincliffcrevasse.nifmeshes\landscape\mountains\mountaincliffsm01.nifmeshes\landscape\mountains\mountaintrim01.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockanimalden01.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockl01.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockl02.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockl03.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockl05.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockm01.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockm02.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockm03.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockm04.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockpilel01.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockpiles02.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockpiles03.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockpiles04.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rocks02.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rocks03.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\cairns\rockcairnevil01.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\cairns\rockcairnevil02.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\cairns\rockcairnevil03.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\cairns\rockcairnevil04.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\wetrocks\rockl01wet.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\wetrocks\rockm03wet.nif ... that is quite a lot of material, although I am not certain which portions of our screens they correspond to. EDIT: Tech, please remove the PNG from the post and simply provide a link to your gallery as I have done in the OP. These are too unwieldy for a forum post. TIACheck again, I fixed the links. I don't know how to create a gallery in Dropbox. Every time I try to create an album is says there are no pictures found (but they're clearly there in the folder). I'll take some compares with SMIM installed as well to see if anything changes.Just checked. None of my compares are effected by SMIM meshes so they should remain valid compares. I'll have to find areas that SMIM affects and grab some new compares in those areas.
z929669 Posted September 13, 2013 Posted September 13, 2013 Okay, I was able to put together a little analysis before bed. Here it is... These are the original HQ PNGs so they may take a second to load. Vanilla >> Vanilla + No Stretching >> Rocking Stones (No Stretching not installed) As you can clearly see here, the meshes didn't change from the second to the third compare. This means Rocking Stones, in fact, has incorporated the No Stretching meshes. Vanilla >> Vanilla + No Stretching >> Rocking Stones (No Stretching not installed) >> Rocking Stones + No Stretching In the third compare here where No Stretching isn't install, you can see in certain areas the meshes are the same as in the second where No Stretching is installed. More proof that Rocking Stones uses the No Stretching meshes. However, you notice it's all not the same this time. It's also different from the Vanilla meshes, only leaving that some of these meshes are custom to Rocking Stones. In the forth compare, with No Stretching overwriting these custom meshes, a close investigation (at least in my opinion) reveals that the No Stretching meshes in this shot look worse than the custom meshes included in Rocking Stones.This logic is incorrect. Where the meshes do not change rather likely means that No Stretching did not apply in the first place ;) Definitely not proof that the NS meshes were used where 2 & 3 match. See my comment following about SMIM. Logic is sound and I purposefully didn't include SMIM to put to rest that No Stretching meshes aren't being used when the author himself states they are. You're essentially saying Hein84 is lying by saying they're not. :confused: Wrong again padawan, nobody is either explicitly or essentially accusing anyone of "lying" ... don't be dramatic Therefore, I checked it out myself, and in fact, they are. Both screen shots and NifSkope investigations prove this. I'll circle the ares in Photoshop if need be. There are areas in vanilla that are changed by NS. Uninstall NS and just use Rocking Stones, and these areas (meshes) remained the same as if NS was install. This is proof that RS is using the NS meshes. Further investigation using NifSkope (just to overkill it) proved most the meshes identical to NS.For your information, Hein also said that he sourced from No Stretching AND SMIM, so you will need to go back and add in SMIM ... or this compare of yours reveals an unknow degree of relevant information ;)Vanilla >> Vanilla + No Stretching >> Rocking Stones (No Stretching not installed) Here are the vertical places that have been brought into question as being stated that it's stretching. All three meshes look different to me. None of this appears to be stretching to me either. Looks rather intended, in fact. You be the judge. After trying to find "stretched" textures with Rocking Stone for a good hour, I couldn't. I continually found more of the above, where the No Stretching meshes are being used and where they aren't, then there was what appeared to be a custom texture. I found no vanilla meshes that I could see either (at least from my investigation) even when using Z's saves.Tech, your pages aren't even loading, so I am guessing that it will be quite awhile. Also, you forgot SMIM. Several of the rock textures we are looking at are affected by SMIM, and SMIM overwrites No Stretching in our load order ... you will need NS + SMIM for an analogous compare in order to reproduce the effects I am referring to ;) Also, I did use the No Stretching and SMIM meshes in my vanilla compares in the OP, and only RS&M replaces the meshes, so RS&M has changed some things that I think the mesh replacements fixed quite nicely, and some of these changes are clearly more close to the original vanilla state These are the Meshes that RS&M uses, that I propose should be overwritten by SMIM: meshes\landscape\mountains\mountaincliff03.nifmeshes\landscape\mountains\mountaincliff04.nifmeshes\landscape\mountains\mountaincliffcrevasse.nifmeshes\landscape\mountains\mountaincliffsm01.nifmeshes\landscape\mountains\mountaintrim01.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockanimalden01.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockl01.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockl02.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockl03.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockl05.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockm01.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockm02.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockm03.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockm04.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockpilel01.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockpiles02.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockpiles03.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rockpiles04.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rocks02.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\rocks03.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\cairns\rockcairnevil01.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\cairns\rockcairnevil02.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\cairns\rockcairnevil03.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\cairns\rockcairnevil04.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\wetrocks\rockl01wet.nifmeshes\landscape\rocks\wetrocks\rockm03wet.nif ... that is quite a lot of material, although I am not certain which portions of our screens they correspond to. EDIT: Tech, please remove the PNG from the post and simply provide a link to your gallery as I have done in the OP. These are too unwieldy for a forum post. TIA Check again, I fixed the links. I don't know how to create a gallery in Dropbox. Every time I try to create an album is says there are no pictures found (but they're clearly there in the folder). Right click on the folder and click on "Share link" or you can choose to share the folder link from the web as well) I'll take some compares with SMIM installed as well to see if anything changes.
TechAngel85 Posted September 13, 2013 Posted September 13, 2013 I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you haven't actually compared these meshes besides in-game? I've been comparing in NifSkope and the meshes (mountains is as far as I've gotten) from NS and SMIM are matching up to be exact matches besides a few cases where RS is actually higher detail (more polygons) or the author has taken his own artistic direction. In fact here is a compare from RS vs SMIM on one mesh you're recommending that we use SMIM over the other mods: mountaincliffsm01.nifRS on the left (Number Vertices=2264), SMIM on the right (Number Vertices=1123)The polygon count is higher on the RS mesh making it a higher detailed mesh. This is the same thing the SMIM author does...increases polygons on the meshes to make higher quality meshes. EDIT:Original post updated with compare link: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zok1r3pt3xd8l1x/qJTTSQHer1
z929669 Posted September 13, 2013 Posted September 13, 2013 Alas, I concede tech. You are correct, and I spoke too soon. Good post with the nif images, too. I have done my own tedious compare of rocks using both vanilla and RS&M both with and without any mesh fixes. The results are mixed (link below). First, I agree that it is aparent that the RS&M meshes look more like modifications of SMIM/No Stretching textures ... some look better and some not, IMO, but that is nitpicking. Second, my screens do show that RS&M generally looks better in game with its own meshes than with the fixed ones (with one or two exceptions). Lastly, I now realize that my "issues" with the RS&M meshes are really issues that I seem to have with the NS/SMIM rock meshes! I happen to think that the vanilla meshes work best for most of the rock/mountain textures!! There are a few exceptions with certain rocks scattered throughout Skyrim here and there, but I cannot identify any of them in these screenshots. I know that they exist, because I have seen a few examples in game. I am thinking that the No Stretching mountain meshes in particular actually don't work well with any of the mountain textures. I am not expert on meshes, but I think that this is not so much the fault of the meshes having a higher polygon count as it is that the mesh-texture mapping is an issue. I'll defer to the mesh-texture experts out there on this, but I think that we need to take a serious look at the behavior of disorganized, natural-object meshes' interaction with their textures. Organized objects like plates, cups, animals, arrows, posts, walls, etc are a simpler matter to construct I think than more random patterns like rocks ... in fact, rocks are some of the most difficult objects to draw and craft artistically, because there is not obvious pattern to follow. I now think that the mesh reworking of rocks and mountains suffers such shortcomings. Notice how wrinkly and dimply the rocks from all of these compares look against the mesh replacements. My next project will be to post the mountain compares less the no stretching textures, just to see if we like them better (I like the vanilla without No Stretching much more than with!) Check out the gallery and judge for yourself. The following gallery examines all compares against an identical Core background. Vanilla (no mesh fixes) / Vanilla (mesh fixes) / RS&N (native meshes) / RS&M (mesh fixes)https://www.dropbox.com/sh/0tmh7lfmek85p2s/4BWE94xLxS ... to clarify, I like the meshes in the very first screen of each set best, but the textures of RS&M best. @Hein84Sorry to stir the pot so much around your mod and to doubt your changes ... and I see now that there is no stretching of your mod's textures ... only my mind was stretching :facepalm:
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