wanted Installing ASIS and SkyRe with some additional stuff

[Rune11]

I'm also very interested in trying out SkyRe.  I never tried it because I didn't think I could get it to mesh with the plethora of Skyrim Revisited mods, but apparently it can be done!  I have tried out quite a mix of overhauls in the past.  I've tried Duel Combat Realism, ACE, Deadly Combat, ASIS, and Skyrim Unleashed, all of them individually and in various combinations.  I consistently find that Duel is hands down, the best combat experience.  It makes combat much more deliberate and tactical. 

 

My last playthrough, I used parts of ACE which seem to work well with Duel, and also Skyrim Unleashed (which deserves a lot more recognition than it seems to get).  Skyrim Unleashed was designed to work with Duel and it makes things quite a bit more difficult in a smart way and without making a ton of changes across the board.  Still, it seems that for the first 15 levels or so, it is absolutely great (I found myself actually having to plan out attacks before hand and desperately trying to take opponents 1 on 1 instead of slaughtering entire groups with nary a thought), but after awhile it gets just about as mundane and boring as vanilla Skyrim.

 

So I am interested in the more sweeping changes that SkyRe makes.  I am currently going through a reinstall of Neovalen's guide and I am going to follow Iroha's directions in this thread for SkyRe.  I just wish there was a way to incorporate Duel, it has proven to be better than every other combat focused mod out there.  At least for me.

[Iroha]

Updated:

added Duel - Combat Realism notes.

added some FAQ to introduction.

[Aiyen]

I'm unclear which crafting and thief perk system you are referring to here - the creator of Empower Magic or of SkyRe?  What mod(s0 contain these changes?

 

If you are not playing a mage, is there really any point to using Empower Magic?  i.e. Will it make NPCs (mainly enemy) using magic more interesting?

I am refering to SkyRe with crafting and thief perks. 

 

As for magic... in my experience I always get to use a few spells in all my playthoughs so it cannot hurt.

As for enemies.. since I use higher level enemies then npc mages scale to my level. With empowered magic that means that their damage output also scales since damage scale with skill level. I use ASIS to make sure that the npc mages actually get the spells and perks. 

 

If I did not use it then NPC mages would just have the the same flat amount of damage at higher levels... but would be able to cast more.

When I tested it the last time then mages actually run out of mana rather quickly.. but if they hit you it also hurts! Well hurt more then normal! 

 

Also I have made it so that mages also get the ability to stagger you with destruction spells like you can do with them! But I have only done this because of the changes empowered magic makes to the stagger perk, so it only happens when the target is at low hp... or if it is a master level spell then it happens more often. Which is fair and adds to immersion... 

 

In general I like what I have done with magic combat now.. and mages are more of a support role in groups of npc.. since they do not get the ability to just spam spells and run away all day, because they will run out of mana rather quickly. Next stop is to try out magic duel reborn and see if it still produces the myriad of bugs and CTD´s that its predecessor did. So far I am waiting for it to get updated one or two more times so most of the horrible bugs are fixed (I do not know if there are any... but I am sure something will pop out due to the amount of issues I had with the other).

[Brighty]

OK Guys, you got me interested in this DUEL AI thing. It certainly would be interesting, to see enemies use better tactics. And you tell me it can go well with SkyRe and ASIS? I don't see why not (SkyRe at its core is more progression then combat overhaul), but they seem to be described as competing mods often. And when T3nd0 seems to change not that much in the enemy AI, both mods seems to have modified stamina mechanics, which for SkyRe seems to be one of the most important balance factors.

[Iroha]

OK Guys' date=' you got me interested in this DUEL AI thing. It certainly would be interesting, to see enemies use better tactics. And you tell me it can go well with SkyRe and ASIS? I don't see why not (SkyRe at its core is more progression then combat overhaul), but they seem to be described as competing mods often. And when T3nd0 seems to change not that much in the enemy AI, both mods seems to have modified stamina mechanics, which for SkyRe seems to be one of the most important balance factors.[/quote']

Yes they both alters stamina mechanic, I think skyre combat module and duel can work together, since skyre combat alters only stamina mechanic and DUEL also customises AI.

But. I played with DUEL, and laughed creepy standing on a small hill while killing bandits, stupidly watching at me, and, at best, shooting in me from the bow. I had DUEL and Skyrim Unleashed in a while.

AI? Awful. This may be was isolated case, but I don't think that I will use DUEL for now.

[Aiyen]

The problem between DUEL and SkyRe is not in the combat, but in the changes to stealth... they might not be entirely compatible, since skyRe also changes how stealth works in some of the same ways that DUEL does, but with different settings.

In fact you can use the SkyRe combat along with DUEL... however it is really not balanced, due to the debuffs that SkyRe introduce.

 

Iroha: What you describe can also be done without DUEL... it is just a matter of exploiting the terrain. The AI has a fixed amount of path finding, which is engine specific. No mod should be able to alter that as far as I understand it.

In general it comes down to the fact that the AI does not have a good jump mechanic at all.. hence if you stand on a rock that you can only jump up on then it is more then likely that the AI will never be able to get up to you, and you can just stand there laughing.

 

However with DUEL it is more likely that they will try to take cover if you are shooting at them and wait until you change to a position they can get too.

When I tested Skyrim Unleashed I had a battle with a bear that took 15 mins of baiting because it would keep running back to hide when I got up where it could not reach me. I was lvl 1 so it would one swipe me if it got close!

 

The DUEL AI shines when you got a group of NPC´s and they try to flank you, and open up so their archers can get clear lines of sight.

The SkyRe AI basically just makes the NPC´s attack/block more often which makes it more difficult due to the debuffs if you also have the combat module.

 

Also another thing.. there is a mod for DUEL that is called Perks for DUEL which alters the archery perks so archery is not OP. It makes it almost impossible for "one shot crit kills" later in the game... Many people found it annoying that Falmer archers could do that when using ASIS and DUEL... since then they get the perks as well.

[Brighty]

15 minutes of fighting a bear? Someone can argue, that fighting a bear shouldn't be easy, especially, when you level 1, but I don't think it will do good to game progression, if regular fights become that long. Bethesda games are longer then any I know. I tend to spend hundred hours having fun playing (and twice that much modding) and mostly not to finish a game. Add to this prolonged fights with common enemies or need to chase after one I almost killed... It seems like fun for a while, but not necessary a proper way to make game challenging considering general design of the game.

[Iroha]

The problem between DUEL and SkyRe is not in the combat, but in the changes to stealth... they might not be entirely compatible, since skyRe also changes how stealth works in some of the same ways that DUEL does, but with different settings.

In fact you can use the SkyRe combat along with DUEL... however it is really not balanced, due to the debuffs that SkyRe introduce.

 

Iroha: What you describe can also be done without DUEL... it is just a matter of exploiting the terrain. The AI has a fixed amount of path finding, which is engine specific. No mod should be able to alter that as far as I understand it.

In general it comes down to the fact that the AI does not have a good jump mechanic at all.. hence if you stand on a rock that you can only jump up on then it is more then likely that the AI will never be able to get up to you, and you can just stand there laughing.

 

However with DUEL it is more likely that they will try to take cover if you are shooting at them and wait until you change to a position they can get too.

When I tested Skyrim Unleashed I had a battle with a bear that took 15 mins of baiting because it would keep running back to hide when I got up where it could not reach me. I was lvl 1 so it would one swipe me if it got close!

 

The DUEL AI shines when you got a group of NPC´s and they try to flank you, and open up so their archers can get clear lines of sight.

The SkyRe AI basically just makes the NPC´s attack/block more often which makes it more difficult due to the debuffs if you also have the combat module.

 

Also another thing.. there is a mod for DUEL that is called Perks for DUEL which alters the archery perks so archery is not OP. It makes it almost impossible for "one shot crit kills" later in the game... Many people found it annoying that Falmer archers could do that when using ASIS and DUEL... since then they get the perks as well.

Well, I understand your point. About SkyRe stealth - seems much more realistic to me, because you still can sneak. With Duel it's almost impossible if you are not heavily invested in sneaking talents. Even if you are naked. My PC was detected in sneak mode by NPC which was in 25-30 meters from me with no light sources near, and even didn't looked at my direction. WTF?

 

Now I'm gonna run with ASIS AI, since my custom install(I'm not about skyre+asis+.. but about all in general:)) seems works as intended. I will see

[statmonster]

I've been trying to go the other way and make it even harder to sneak. I like to play sneaky characters, but I also like it to be a challenge to do right. (Not impossible but so that you ave to work at and nit just rely on an amazing sneak skill plus enchantments to breeze by enemies.). I've been trying kryptopyr's Stealth Slills Rebalanced sneak module with ACE plus Duel Combat.

[Aiyen]

Brigthy: The bear was just for testing... if you use Skyrim Unleashed then the first many levels will offer fights that take longer...

In this instance then the only reason it took so long was because I had to bait it very carefully and could only get 1 shots of every now and again ... If I had been able to shoot at it all the time then it would have taken less then 1 min.

Wild life has got a huge increase in hp etc. however most animals will not attack you on sight to balance it off.

This is the charm of that mod...

 

Sadly it does not keep it interesting after lvl 20-30 then you start to have a vanilla game again which I personally detest.

Also if you use the unleveled items you can be lucky and find stahlrim items early which kinda just break all balance early in the game. And hence ruin the strong point of the entire mod.

 

I also prefer SkyRe´s stealth since it is based on another dedicated stealth mod that comes included... one of the best around really.

However even that can do the "20-30m backs turned detection" sometimes. It is just the way the scripts work sadly.

One thing about lights is if you are using an ENB and have it reduce or increase point lighting values. The game does not register these changes since they are purely cosmetic. So you can technically stand in pure light and not be detected, or the other way around.

[Nauglamir]

Just to say so - I can somewhat remember that I did read about the possibility to delete one single script from Duel, and therefore only the AI changes would stay in place, not the rest of it. That statement was made by the mod author himself, in the nexus thread, I believe. Could've also been in the official forum, I just don't have the time to look it up right now.

Nevertheless, what I wanted to say: I think there is a possibility to get a game running with DUEL changing the Ai, while giving Skyre predomenance when it comes to the rest of the combat system.

[Iroha]

Just to say so - I can somewhat remember that I did read about the possibility to delete one single script from Duel, and therefore only the AI changes would stay in place, not the rest of it. That statement was made by the mod author himself, in the nexus thread, I believe. Could've also been in the official forum, I just don't have the time to look it up right now.

Nevertheless, what I wanted to say: I think there is a possibility to get a game running with DUEL changing the Ai, while giving Skyre predomenance when it comes to the rest of the combat system.

Thank you for information, I will seek for this solution.

 

UPD. Found it. Guide updated.

[Nauglamir]

Good morning!

 

Did anyone try that AI tweak already, and can report that it works - and affects the way NCPs behave in a positive way?

[Iroha]

Good morning!

 

Did anyone try that AI tweak already, and can report that it works - and affects the way NCPs behave in a positive way?

Hi, I didn't tried it, since I'm personally not interested in Duel AI, stamina & stealth mechanic. 

But it will work as intended. Especially, if not to use SkyRe combat module, skyre enemyAI module / ASIS custom AI (that is told in the guide). In that case no need to delete any script files even.

[walkman80]

Duel just has a better AI then both ASIS and SkyRE... it also is based on a few scripts as I understand it... while the others are just altering how often the AI attacks and blocks etc.

 

In general Duel is trying to make life harder for sneaky types, since the AI is actually quite decent in locating sneaky types... Also the combat is fairly well balanced for fighter types! I personally supplement with ACE combat module to make combat a bit more interesting for both sneaky types, and front line fighters. (Tripping enemies when striking from behind is just fun!)

To top off the difficulty I use immersive potions... so you can only use one potion effect at a time!

 

Also in DUEL archers are not nearly as deadly as in SkyRE... at least it is easier to control the damage output via the ingame difficulty settings.

 

The only thing I "miss" from SkyRE are some of the perk overhauls... I personally find the vanilla combat and magic ones decent... I do not need 10 various weapon types etc etc, since at the end of the day all melee combat is exactly the same. And I am satisfied with Empowered Magics changes to the vanilla perks to balance magic off. I do however like his thief and crafting perk systems, since the vanilla are either OP or just a bit boring.

Hey Aiyen, have you tried ERSO (Erkeil Real Skyrim Overhaul)? Just curious if you have and what your thoughts are on it. I blew up my install so am doing the guide from scratch but before I did that I tried out ERSO with Duel and it seemed really promising. But I mainly play Ranger (bow/dual wield) so am unsure of the magic implications. If anyone else has tried ERSO let me know - I'm really having a hard time deciding which overhaul to employ.

 

When I initially looked into overhauls I tried Unleashed first but you pointed out to me how the scaling works later in the game. Doesn't sound ideal. The first levels are intense for sure, I could barely get through Bleak Falls but it would be nice if it maintained that difficulty later on. I understand the author's viewpoint in that your character SHOULD be stronger due to the skill progressions but its not what I am looking for.