Mod Picker (by the Mod Picker Team)

[TechAngel85]

I can't add ENBSeries to the mod list. It doesn't show up under Mods when searching. It does under Tools, but when I try to add it I get an error:

Error adding tool, mod_id: The mod is already present on the mod list.

[Mator]

Well, for STEP the mods were probably about 80% complete for our uses; however, if I'm going to put my name on something I want to make sure it's 100% complete for everyone and that's what I did. :: Many of the mods on the list didn't have a complete analysis because they were missing additional main files, optional files, or miscellaneous files that were available on the Nexus page, but wasn't available on Mod Picker as mod options. This led to a lot of resubmission of the mod analyses and let me say...some of those mods got a bit crazy! Like EBQO, for example. That mod supports a lot of other mods via patches. So I had to download a lot of additional mods to complete the analyses. I eventually just started submitting the easier additional mods I was having to download as new mods to Mod Picker since I was required to download them anyway for the analyses.

Hmmm. I went through a lot of the mods from the STEP mod list and made sure to submit additional archives for them, but any mods which were submitted by other users could indeed have been incomplete.

 

 

Well...I'll be honest and this may get winded so bare with me.

I will bear* with you. :)

 

 

I'm not sure how popular something like this will be for using it as a complete feature set. For me, I see the mod list feature targeting a smaller niche in the community, like those who really need the features (STEP) or those who enjoy putting together modding guides. I think the mod lists work very well for that niche group. I'm fairly confident STEP can use this for our needs, and anyone else who builds modding guides for the community. Including those guides we have on the STEP wiki: Skyrim Revisited, SRLE:LotD, Mystic Dawn, Fear & Loathing, Skyrim All YASH'd Up, etc, etc. I believe the primary users of the mod lists feature will be people creating guides.

I think that the reason why someone would want to use the mod list feature would be the following:

 

- Compatibility help (once we have a large database of compatibility notes there's no better way to determine compatibility issues in a mod list than to actually create the mod list on Mod Picker)

- Install/load order help (Mod Picker's approach to load order is better than LOOT's in that it actually explains why things get sorted in certain places and attempts to order things somewhat logically).

- Mod List setup (once we have that built). Everyone wants this, so I think they'll want to use Mod Picker mod lists once this is an available option.

 

 

I see this coming up so I'll mention it, "people can just use it to share their setups". Yes, but the everyday users are already using the more simplistic Modwatch to just share their setups in this manner. It's as simple as uploading some text. Mod Picker may have the import features to make it more simple, but if some mods aren't on Mod Picker yet users will have to submit them. Then if the author as opted out, users will have to do the manual work of setting up custom mods. Mod Picker is simply more work for these users, so I see many of them sticking with Modwatch for that sort of thing. Users do get the added benefit of having issue with their setups checked for them with Mod Picker; however, getting to that point is a lot of additional work. I think most everyday users will simply opt to use the mod pages to check individual mods for this information, rather than taking the time to build out their mod lists.

I think the idea that if a mod isn't on Mod Picker the user has to submit them is a misunderstanding. The import feature will create custom mod/plugin entries on a mod list for mods/plugins that aren't on Mod Picker. Yes, any custom mod entries will not have images or other more detailed information as Mod Picker offers, but Modwatch (your comparison) doesn't have that anyways. Therefore, so long as even a single mod from a user's mod list is on Mod Picker, Mod Picker is at least a LITTLE bit better than Modwatch.

 

I don't think building a mod list is as much work as you think it is with the import feature.

 

 

This brings me to the time and effort it takes...

I'm sure it will become less of an issue over time as more mods are added and maintained; however, currently it takes quite a bit of time and effort to set everything up properly. STEP's mod list is long, but ours is short compared to some other mod lists. Currently, it takes considerable time to just set up your mod list from start to finish (keep in mind a lot of this time was doing mod analyses). It has taken me two weeks to get to where I am now while working on the list during a the majority of my spare time...and I'm still not finished yet. If everyday users are going jump on board with the mod lists, that time needs to be cut down to just a few hours.

How do you think the time could be cut down? I have a few ideas myself, but I'm curious if you have some as well. I think that the import feature helps with part of the process (though it doesn't handle mod option selection). I think that mod submission can be further improved with automatic determination for certain fields (categories and certain tags), a background job approach, plugin master display before analyzing mods, and better dummy master support. Another possibility could be to build an integrated batch mod submission function into the future Mod Picker desktop application as an additional step when importing a mod list.

 

 

We can't forget that Nexus has planned the profile share feature for a while now, and I would bet that the new NMM will have the feature fully implemented eventually. This will be a much faster and more simple way for users to share their mod lists than using Mod Picker. It's also suppose to be automated...as simple as installing a mod and hitting a few buttons. Compare this feature's 'hype' to Mod Picker's mod lists, I would say users would be more willing to use NMM (which will also be free).

Uhh, have you not been paying attention? Mod Picker is building something very similar - a utility which will set up a mod list for the user. Also, keep in mind that Nexus Mods is on feature lockdown and are in the process of overhauling both their mod manager and their website. Their timeline is completely unknown - we shouldn't expect anything soon.

 

There are numerous reasons why NMM's profile sharing feature is not a concern to me:

 

- We already have a mod list feature built.  I don't see Nexus Mods matching our Mod List UX.

- We have compatibility, install order, and load order issue tracking built into Mod Picker which provides massive functionality which the Nexus will (in all likelihood) never have.

- We support mods from multiple sources. NMM's profile sharing feature (in all likelihood) never will.

- It will be just as easy if not easier to use Mod Picker's import/export features as it will be to use NMM's profile sharing feature.

- NMM's profile sharing feature most likely won't handle config files beyond the basic loadorder.txt and modlist.xml. Mod Picker allows for generic/arbitrary config file management which allows for more complete mod profile setup.

- NMM has been a trainwreck for years. They're rebuilding it from scratch - it's going to take at least a year just to reach the level of functionality we currently have with NMM/MO.

- Nexus Mods simply do not have the data or database schema required to automate mod installation/setup. They may say they want to do this, but I'm willing to wager they haven't even STARTED working on it yet. Automating FOMOD and BAIN installers, and the installation of optional archives is something that is not trivial.

- You don't know with certainty that profile sharing will be free. It may turn out that you are required to have a Nexus Mods premium account for it.

 

 

What I see Mod Picker being popular for (at least at first) will be the mod pages, which is a resource of information that is not easily collected into one place as Mod Picker has it. This is largely due to Mod Analyzer. As long as users are willing to fill in the other stuff like load order and compatibility data, then Mod Picker will be very successful for this feature. The mod list feature I just have doubts of it being widely adopted until the time and effort it takes to set up is reduced, by more mods being added to the platform. If I was you, I'd have a couple team members that do nothing but submit new mods with 'proper' and complete mod analyses. That task is probably the single most time consuming aspect of Mod Picker due to what it takes to get to a complete analysis with some mods. I think EBQO required me to download an additional 11-14 mods for a proper analysis. I'd wager most everyday users will not be willing to go to those lengths to simply submit a mod. Getting the most common and popular mods on Mod Picker should probably be a high priority for the platform to gain momentum more quickly and grow.

Yes, there is a bit of a cost right now because we don't have that many mods (~1,100 when I last checked). I'll try to submit more mods myself here over the next few weeks, but I think a higher priority item should be improving the dummy masters feature so it can be active by default.

 

 

What I think could use some improvements:

• Mod priority in the mod lists. I've already mentioned this, but making the mods easier to move than dragging and dropping would be great. Being able to edit the priority is the simplest way to do this from a user's prospective.
• A place for "install notes" on the mod pages would be nice. For instance, many mods are not packaged correctly (IHSS, Immersive Thunder, Realistic HD Baskets, Skyrim Redesigned, etc). These mods are often either installed incorrectly by new users or they are tossed into a panic when a mod manager tells them that it's not packaged right and requires input to know how to proceed. Seen that plenty on these forum.

• Yes, I'll be building that soon.
• This is planned

 

Thanks for your feedback!

- Mator

Edited December 24, 2016 by Mator

[Mator]

I can't add ENBSeries to the mod list. It doesn't show up under Mods when searching. It does under Tools, but when I try to add it I get an error:

Error adding tool, mod_id: The mod is already present on the mod list.

It looks like you had some leftover stuff due to the bug where you could add a tool to the mods tab.  Basically, you initially added ENB to the mods tab, and then added it to a group on the mods tab.  The backend effectively stored the entry on the tools tab, but the group was not present on the tools tab so the entry poofed from the GUI.

 

I fixed the issue.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Mator

[GrantSP]

Would it be possible to have any Nexus links pressed on the Mod Picker page open in a new tab rather that taking over the existing?

[Mator]

Would it be possible to have any Nexus links pressed on the Mod Picker page open in a new tab rather that taking over the existing?

By default?  Yes.

 

For the time being you can middle click, ctrl + click, or right-click -> open in new tab.

 

 

EDIT: Updated, now opens in a new tab by default.  You may need to empty your cache.

Edited December 24, 2016 by Mator

[GrantSP]

Thank you. Only 10 minutes to implement a change? You're slowing down.

[Mator]

Thank you. Only 10 minutes to implement a change? You're slowing down.

It was actually 5 minutes, but I edited a second time to make the note about emptying cache.  ;)

[TechAngel85]

I think that the reason why someone would want to use the mod list feature would be the following:

 

- Compatibility help (once we have a large database of compatibility notes there's no better way to determine compatibility issues in a mod list than to actually create the mod list on Mod Picker)

- Install/load order help (Mod Picker's approach to load order is better than LOOT's in that it actually explains why things get sorted in certain places and attempts to order things somewhat logically).

- Mod List setup (once we have that built). Everyone wants this, so I think they'll want to use Mod Picker mod lists once this is an available option.

As I mentioned elsewhere, I think until the time to set up the mod list is reduced, most users will likely use the mod pages for this information rather than building out a mod list. Especially when many users already have their setups created and stable. They'd like just check out the mod page of any new mods they're thinking of adding to their setups as a "quick check" for issues to be aware of. Admittedly, if the import feature is as good and easy as you say, then mod lists will likely be used more than I thought. I have not tried the import feature. Will it be a "paid feature" or is it free for everyone?

 

I think the idea that if a mod isn't on Mod Picker the user has to submit them is a misunderstanding. The import feature will create custom mod/plugin entries on a mod list for mods/plugins that aren't on Mod Picker. Yes, any custom mod entries will not have images or other more detailed information as Mod Picker offers, but Modwatch (your comparison) doesn't have that anyways. Therefore, so long as even a single mod from a user's mod list is on Mod Picker, Mod Picker is at least a LITTLE bit better than Modwatch.

Yes, Mod Picker has more feature, but I wasn't comparing the features in this instance. I was only comparing the ease of setting up and sharing a mod list. Currently for user that want nothing more than a place to post their mod lists and want nothing more, then Modwatch would be the easier of the two. However, I didn't know about all the custom mods being created for you. This would basically put them close to a one-to-one match for nothing more than sharing a mod list using people.

 

How do you think the time could be cut down? I have a few ideas myself, but I'm curious if you have some as well. I think that the import feature helps with part of the process (though it doesn't handle mod option selection). I think that mod submission can be further improved with automatic determination for certain fields (categories and certain tags), a background job approach, plugin master display before analyzing mods, and better dummy master support. Another possibility could be to build an integrated batch mod submission function into the future Mod Picker desktop application as an additional step when importing a mod list.

Basically, just getting more mods on the platform will cut the time in half. If users want to fully set up their mod lists with mod options and everything, then I don't see any other ways to cut that time down that you haven't already mentioned.

 

Uhh, have you not been paying attention? Mod Picker is building something very similar - a utility which will set up a mod list for the user. Also, keep in mind that Nexus Mods is on feature lockdown and are in the process of overhauling both their mod manager and their website. Their timeline is completely unknown - we shouldn't expect anything soon.

 

There are numerous reasons why NMM's profile sharing feature is not a concern to me:

 

- We already have a mod list feature built.  I don't see Nexus Mods matching our Mod List UX.

- We have compatibility, install order, and load order issue tracking built into Mod Picker which provides massive functionality which the Nexus will (in all likelihood) never have.

- We support mods from multiple sources. NMM's profile sharing feature (in all likelihood) never will.

- It will be just as easy if not easier to use Mod Picker's import/export features as it will be to use NMM's profile sharing feature.

- NMM's profile sharing feature most likely won't handle config files beyond the basic loadorder.txt and modlist.xml. Mod Picker allows for generic/arbitrary config file management which allows for more complete mod profile setup.

- NMM has been a trainwreck for years. They're rebuilding it from scratch - it's going to take at least a year just to reach the level of functionality we currently have with NMM/MO.

- Nexus Mods simply do not have the data or database schema required to automate mod installation/setup. They may say they want to do this, but I'm willing to wager they haven't even STARTED working on it yet. Automating FOMOD and BAIN installers, and the installation of optional archives is something that is not trivial.

- You don't know with certainty that profile sharing will be free. It may turn out that you are required to have a Nexus Mods premium account for it.

I know that utility is coming for Mod Picker, but I think you might be underestimating Nexus. I'm pretty sure I read a while ago that they had some of the feature working already behind the scenes. That was a while ago, and I could be mistaken. Robin has a road map and he's been pretty good about following it. He never hires anyone unless he can pay them for at least 1yr, so Robin saved up for some time before hiring on Tannin. That means the new manager had been planned for some time now. Tannin is also working full-time on the new manager and, from my understanding, he has a team to help him. If all that is true, I honestly don't believe it will be a year. It'll more likely be a few months.

 

As for the website, they're already very close to release. That will likely be within a few months too, if not sooner.

 

Yes, there is a bit of a cost right now because we don't have that many mods (~1,100 when I last checked). I'll try to submit more mods myself here over the next few weeks, but I think a higher priority item should be improving the dummy masters feature so it can be active by default.

How does using dummy masters vs the actual masters affect the outcome of the analysis?

 

EDIT

New scroll bar on Analyzer works good!

[Mator]

As I mentioned elsewhere, I think until the time to set up the mod list is reduced, most users will likely use the mod pages for this information rather than building out a mod list. Especially when many users already have their setups created and stable. They'd like just check out the mod page of any new mods they're thinking of adding to their setups as a "quick check" for issues to be aware of. Admittedly, if the import feature is as good and easy as you say, then mod lists will likely be used more than I thought. I have not tried the import feature. Will it be a "paid feature" or is it free for everyone?

It's free and already on the platform. https://imgur.com/a/e4LzR

 

Yes, Mod Picker has more feature, but I wasn't comparing the features in this instance. I was only comparing the ease of setting up and sharing a mod list. Currently for user that want nothing more than a place to post their mod lists and want nothing more, then Modwatch would be the easier of the two. However, I didn't know about all the custom mods being created for you. This would basically put them close to a one-to-one match for nothing more than sharing a mod list using people.

Correct. Mod List importing currently functions in a way that is pretty much 1:1 with modwatch.

 

I know that utility is coming for Mod Picker, but I think you might be underestimating Nexus. I'm pretty sure I read a while ago that they had some of the feature working already behind the scenes. That was a while ago, and I could be mistaken. Robin has a road map and he's been pretty good about following it. He never hires anyone unless he can pay them for at least 1yr, so Robin saved up for some time before hiring on Tannin. That means the new manager had been planned for some time now. Tannin is also working full-time on the new manager and, from my understanding, he has a team to help him. If all that is true, I honestly don't believe it will be a year. It'll more likely be a few months.

 

As for the website, they're already very close to release. That will likely be within a few months too, if not sooner.

I think you're being extremely optimistic. While it's theoretically possible (and would be amazing), I think what we've seen in practice from the Nexus is that the rate at which they push out developments is abysmally slow. I acknowledge that there are some unknowns, but most of the people who I have talked to have suggested that the Nexus's timeline is moreso on the order of a year than a few months. Maybe they'll surprise us, but I doubt it.

 

In regards to the website redesign specifically, I was told that I shouldn't expect it until "like a year from now" as of 3 months ago (albeit from a not-so-reliable source).  If that's how far off the redesign is, then I can't imagine profile sharing is coming any time sooner (as the website redesign is a prerequisite per Robin's note about the Nexus being on feature lockdown).  Again, I'm not FULLY discounting that this could happen sometime in the next few months.  I wouldn't be surprised if they started pushing things out in February.

 

How does using dummy masters vs the actual masters affect the outcome of the analysis?

As I mentioned before, it makes us unable to identify certain types of plugin errors - specifically ITMs, ITPOs, and unresolved references.

Edited December 24, 2016 by Mator

[GrantSP]

Wow!, wow!, wow! on the import feature. That is simply brilliant.

[Mator]

Wow!, wow!, wow! on the import feature. That is simply brilliant.

Thanks!  I'm hoping it'll see some good use.  :D

 

TechAngel85: Regarding mod submission, I've decided I'm going to submit 10 mods/day at minimum and aim for 30 mods/day.  That should allow the platform to grow at a nice continuous rate.

 

My personal estimation is that ~5000 mods is what's needed for people to feel really comfortable using the platform.  I don't know how quickly we can reach 5000, but if other users submit mods I think it's quite possible to reach it in 60 days.  (that requires the submission of ~65 mods/day on average)

 

EDIT: Reached 30 mods today (well, 10 minutes after midnight!)

Edited December 25, 2016 by Mator

[TechAngel85]

@Nexus Webiste

It's already in a closed beta testing state as has been for several months. I don't see it taking a year to release seeing that it's already basically designed to the point they're getting feedback from the testers. Though I agree that their development schedule has been incredibly slow in the past. I doubt it'll be that slow with someone now working full-time on the new NMM. I'm just comparing past to present to come up with my personal opinions on the matter.

 

@Dummy Masters

If that is true, using dummy masters seems to be going against Mod Picker's philosophy in regards to providing such information on mods. Though I admit ITMs are usually benign in nature.

 

@Adding mods

Sounds like a good goal. I'll add some whenever I'm sitting around bored. ::

[Mator]

Well I totally exceeded my goals for mod submission today.

 

Here's my mod submission history according to Mod Picker:

 

2016-10-07: 24 mods
2016-10-08: 34 mods
2016-10-15: 1 mods
2016-11-22: 23 mods
2016-11-23: 34 mods
2016-11-24: 20 mods
2016-11-25: 23 mods
2016-12-01: 22 mods
2016-12-03: 1 mods
2016-12-08: 17 mods
2016-12-24: 27 mods
2016-12-25: 18 mods
2016-12-26: 79 mods

 

I also started creating mod lists for some popular guides from r/skyrimmods:

• Fill out the aMidianBorn Book of Silence Part 1: Armor and Weapons
• Fill out the aMidianBorn Book of Silence Part 2: Unique Items
• Fill out the aMidianBorn Book of Silence Part 3: Creatures
• Teamistress's Cake Day - Favorite Homes

[TechAngel85]

Sweet!

 

I haven't done anything lately because of the holiday.

[Mator]

I pushed an update to Mod Analyzer.  It has some important fixes to FOMOD parsing as well as a large update to the classify archives view (which is now a screen instead of a modal).  You can get it from GitHub or from the Nexus Mods page once their file servers are done processing it.