SKYRIMLE SkyRealism - Balanced Perk Trees (by IndigoNeko)

[z929669]

I've never understood the limitations of armor in association with classes either' date=' and always find it has more to do with easing the burden of game balance. Wielding magic requires concentration' date=' which armor isn't going to affect. Depending on the type of armor, however, will require increased strength. So if anything, it should be a movement penalty as mages will more naturally tend to study to improve the mind rather than grueling physical training.[/quote'']

That's what I'm saying. Having a cost penalty to casting just makes no since to me. Movement cost, depending on the armor, I could completely understand. If I'm wearing steel armor I still have the freedom of my arms, hands, and mind just as any warrior would so why affect casting cost? I could maybe understand non-magical gloves affecting casting cost as they would restrict some movement in the hands. That would be reasonable and has been done in games before...Neverwinter Nights I think did this with gloves.

If you were a master alchemist, having spent years learning your trade, how likely is it that you will ever have had the want or the need to equip a full suit of armor? :o_O:  ... or the chances that you would have a squire on hand to maintain it for you and assist you with equipping it?

 

A warrior fluent in the art of alchemy might have light armor, but rarely medium and almost never heavy. Let's say just for kicks, you happen to be a mage that happened upon a squire and a battery of weapons and armor ( :? ). Why on Earth would you sacrifice your stealth and speed for this? And if you did, how do you think the extra 60+ pounds, heat and discomfort would affect your concentration ability?

 

There is no way that a suit of anything but the most pleasantly comfortable, airy and light armor would not affect the concentration of anyone other than a hardened warrior that has grown used to wearing such attire and dealing with such discomfort in the heat of battle and the tedium of travel and the boredom of standing watch.

[TechAngel85]

I've never understood the limitations of armor in association with classes either' date=' and always find it has more to do with easing the burden of game balance. Wielding magic requires concentration' date=' which armor isn't going to affect. Depending on the type of armor, however, will require increased strength. So if anything, it should be a movement penalty as mages will more naturally tend to study to improve the mind rather than grueling physical training.[/quote'']

That's what I'm saying. Having a cost penalty to casting just makes no since to me. Movement cost, depending on the armor, I could completely understand. If I'm wearing steel armor I still have the freedom of my arms, hands, and mind just as any warrior would so why affect casting cost? I could maybe understand non-magical gloves affecting casting cost as they would restrict some movement in the hands. That would be reasonable and has been done in games before...Neverwinter Nights I think did this with gloves.

If you were a master alchemist, having spent years learning your trade, how likely is it that you will ever have had the want or the need to equip a full suit of armor? :o_O:  ... or the chances that you would have a squire on hand to maintain it for you and assist you with equipping it?

 

A warrior fluent in the art of alchemy might have light armor, but rarely medium and almost never heavy. Let's say just for kicks, you happen to be a mage that happened upon a squire and a battery of weapons and armor ( :? ). Why on Earth would you sacrifice your stealth and speed for this? And if you did, how do you think the extra 60+ pounds, heat and discomfort would affect your concentration ability?

 

There is no way that a suit of anything but the most pleasantly comfortable, airy and light armor would not affect the concentration of anyone other than a hardened warrior that has grown used to wearing such attire and dealing with such discomfort in the heat of battle and the tedium of travel and the boredom of standing watch.

When you say "alchemist" I think "potion maker". Most alchemist wouldn't be in battle. When I say "mage" I think "magic welder". I'm assuming you're using them interchangeably when I write this reply.

 

Let me give you this real world scenario. I'm a martial artist. Been in martial arts for most of my life. During my years and years of training in my art, one thing that I have developed is very keen concentration. This is naturally developed over time. We don't train with sparring gear on (light armor); however, while in tournaments and sparring one must wear this gear. In no way does this gear affect my concentration during fights. The same goes for samurai whom wear much heavier armor who train for years. Most of their training isn't done while wearing armor, yet they dawn it during battles with no break in their concentration. Forget about the body training here... The point I'm making is not the body training, but rather the training of the mind for concentration. Anyone's concentration, who trains for years, is not going to have that concentration broken so easily as something by armor. I can tell you from experience, when you're trained and you're in that fight you are completely focused on the task. I see a mage as having this type of concentration from training.

 

So to provide both side of this coin... A mage that trains in armor or with the idea of wearing armor isn't going to be distracted by that armor; however, I mage that only ever wears light clothing as you suggest would most likely be affected by armor because that mage has never wore armor before. I don't know why any mage training for battle would want to go into a battle without some type of armor for protection. I hope I have efficiently described my thoughts on this.

[z929669]

 I don't know why any mage training for battle would want to go into a battle without some type of armor for protection. I hope I have efficiently described my thoughts on this.

 

My point is that mages (i.e., alchemists, wizards, practitioners of the cerebral "arts"), by definition of their nature do not "want" to go into battle. They are wise and intelligent and practiced in the arts of manipulation. They do not train for "fighting" as does a martial artist or a knight or a Samurai. A mage trains to manipulate their environments to obtain their interests. Evan mages of the schools of Destruction. The exception is the battlemage, and everyone knows that the magic of the battlemage can never be as potentially powerful as that of the pure mage.

 

End result, a mage that wears armor is either not a pure mage of highest potential or is not at all used to equipping something so tedious and barbaric as armor :happy:

 

We can agree to disagree, but I think that there is a lot more argument for handicapping a mage wearing armor in RPGs than there is for not. In fact, we could also point out how unrealistic it is that a warrior can recover from near mortal wounds simply by resting

[stoppingby4now]

I don't see anyone debating that certain classes will obviously gravitate towards certain choices of armor/clothing. It really would be a blunder for a pure mage to attempt to run about wearing heavy armor. Most games of the RPG genre include armor limitations based on class, not as a means of ensuring you are smart in your choices, but because it would be much more difficult to balance the game otherwise.

 

Reducing magic effectiveness based on the choice to wear armor is just illogical (as opposed to giving a bonus for wearing the preferred cloth attire, which may also be easier to enchant for greater effect). Concentration is as much a part of the body as the mind, true, but gaining the strength to wear certain kinds of armor is no where near the equivalent of training for your chosen skill/profession. Greater strength is only required to be able to wield to greater effect and fight in melee combat. It's even more illogical to restrict them from wearing leather armor, which won't be anywhere near as cumbersome as heavy.

 

Were a mage to choose to wear heavy armor, they would be far less agile (relatively speaking) than a warrior whose specific training will develop far more muscle strength than the mage doing 3 sets of 10 every other day (so to speak). A warrior will fight relying on his muscles. A mage will fight relying on his mind. Fatigue can effect the mage, but it will be more mental than physical, as it's what they train. So, realistically speaking, choice of armor for a mage should give negative bonuses primarily in strength, which in turn would inhibit their movement and stamina. You won't survive long enough for any physical discomfort to begin to affect you in most cases.

 

My point is that these limitations placed in games are often times nonsensical, but are done so because balancing the mechanics in a real-world sense would be far too costly.

[TechAngel85]

S4N totally gets what I was trying to say because he just said the same thing in a completely different wording. My point was that mages who train in armor aren't going to be affected by that armor. Heavy armors might be a bit much for the mage class and should, as S4N pointed out, affect strength and speed; not casting cost. Medium armor less so than heavy armor and light armor should have no effect at all as it wouldn't be much heavier than the cloth clothes. Most D&D games I've played labeled cloth clothes as light armor anyway. Elder Scrolls breaks that model a little bit from past games like Neverwinter Nights by distinguishing between the two.

 

A better balance, IMO, would to have the cost effect the strength and speed. I don't know if this is possible to do in Skyrim so a good alternative would be to have light armors not have any casting penalty, medium armors a slight penalty, and heavy armors up to a 33% penalty. This would, at the very least, encourage the mage class to stay within their armor classes (light to medium) or suffer a heavy penalty as a result.

 

The whole thing came about because I have been using Balanced Magic which removes the armor penalties. I guess he was thinking along these same lines that S4N and I have pointed to. I'm planning on switching to Balanced Perk Trees due to it balancing more than just magics.

[Korentin]

The whole thing came about because I have been using Balanced Magic which removes the armor penalties.

There is no penalty to wearing armor regarding magic use in vanilla Skyrim... 

[TechAngel85]

The whole thing came about because I have been using Balanced Magic which removes the armor penalties.

There is no penalty to wearing armor regarding magic use in vanilla Skyrim... 

Quote from Balanced Magic on Nexus:

What It Does

====================================================================

Magicka Management

- Magicka regenerates faster in combat (60% instead of 33%)

- Dual Casting costs less (2.4x instead of 2.8x) and is more effective (2.6x instead of 2.2x)

- Spell costs have been calculated so that they no longer decrease as your skill improves; instead your spells will get more powerful as skill increases.

- Neither light nor heavy armor increase spell costs, however, costs are reduced if armor is removed since movements are less restricted, making it easier to cast spells. Each slot (head, body, hands, and feet) that is unarmored will reduce casting cost by 8%.

That's what I was referring to. I'm relying on the mod authors on this as I've never dove into the magic/armor/cost/ in Skyrim. I'm assuming they have and know what they're talking about.

[Korentin]

Ah, ok. So the mod doesn't "remove armor penalties" but add bonuses to magic use when your unarmored :)

[z929669]

Ah' date=' ok. So the mod doesn't "remove armor penalties" but add bonuses to magic use when your unarmored :)[/quote']

... and this is how it effectively should be.

 

(IMO) there should be a *cost* to any mage or thief wearing anything more than very light armor (and no, clothing is not armor), and that cost should increase incrementally with the weight of the armor. And it also makes sense that certain spells cannot even be cast when wearing certain types of heavy armor.

 

There is a great deal of back story to support these concepts

 

It sounds like everyone may be agreeing on the outcome but not the semantics of achieving it. I only care that there is a *plausible* story to explain the net effect.

[Korentin]

I find this funny to read actually, being a tabletop roleplayer I've heard all these things a million times before :) Most major roleplaying systems moved away from penalizing magic wielders from wearing armor sometimes in the early 90s btw :)

[TechAngel85]

I find this funny to read actually' date=' being a tabletop roleplayer I've heard all these things a million times before :) Most major roleplaying systems moved away from penalizing magic wielders from wearing armor sometimes in the early 90s btw :)[/quote']

I was born in the 80s and didn't get into RPGs until the early 2000s.... maybe that is why I see the penalties as weird and unlogical.

[Korentin]

I was born in the 70s and also see the penalties as weird and unlogical :) Most I know see them as you do, as something that was mostly applied as a balancing act for class-based systems. Btw I find it equally weird to give bonuses for not wearing armor hehe.

[z929669]

I find this funny to read actually' date=' being a tabletop roleplayer I've heard all these things a million times before :) Most major roleplaying systems moved away from penalizing magic wielders from wearing armor sometimes in the early 90s btw :)[/quote']

that is just around the time I stopped playing ... I am old school (AD&D/D&D in the 80s)

 

... before they began simplifying thing too much, and removing a lot of the *evil* and explicit material IMO. I thought that AD&D II penalized mages for wearing armor, btw ....

---

I was born in the 70s and also see the penalties as weird and unlogical :) Most I know see them as you do' date=' as something that was mostly applied as a balancing act for class-based systems. Btw I find it equally weird to give bonuses for not wearing armor hehe.[/quote']

It is really the same thing in effect.

[Korentin]

I find this funny to read actually' date=' being a tabletop roleplayer I've heard all these things a million times before :) Most major roleplaying systems moved away from penalizing magic wielders from wearing armor sometimes in the early 90s btw :)[/quote']

that is just around the time I stopped playing ... I am old school (AD&D/D&D in the 80s)

 

... before they began simplifying thing too much' date=' and removing a lot of the *evil* and explicit material IMO. I thought that AD&D II penalized mages for wearing armor, btw ....[/quote']

Yep, thats still waaaaay back though and D&D is responsible for most of that trend since its the iconic class-based RPG system. While there are quite a few popular simplified RPG systems there are equally as many that aren't :) Besides, D&D is a kids game no matter what edition ;) That said I've played it in many many campaigns and unlike Skyrim it is quite easy to mod it however you like on a whim ;) 

[Besidilo]

D&D, a kids game? It's been played by the greatest minds of our time. :P

 

The forth edition sucks unless you modify it to your serious campaigns, 3.5 was overcomplicated when it came to different rules, but Pathfinder seems to have the right idea.

 

Besides, most other major RPG systems are based off the old AD&D or D&D 3.0.