ACCEPTED Improved Close Faced Helmets (by navida1)

[Kelmych]

If you are not using imp_helm_imp plugin then it doesn't matter where you put the legendary patch (or imp_helm) as long as they are loaded after their master plugins. If you choose to add the imp_helm_imp plugin to get the small change it makes (that I suggested isn't very useful), then it needs to load after the WAF legendary (or the WAF imp_helm if you aren't using the legendary patch) plugin. The legendary (and imp_helm) plugin contain all the records for the imperial helmet, but the version of these records in imp_helm_imp is slightly different. The imp_helm_imp plugin can actually be used standalone without the imp_helm or legendary plugin if all you want is the imperial helmet. 

[DoYouEvenModBro]

That makes sense.

 

I think the guide is wrong then. It says to download the optional imp_helm_imp (no cloth around the neck) optional from Improved Closefaced Helmets but then, during the Improved Closefaced Helmets WAF instillation instructions, it does NOT say to use the imp_helm_imp file from that patch. This is wrong because the Legendary ESP does not include imp_helm_imp, so if you are putting the legendary.esp plugin before imp_helm_imp, that imp_helm_imp.esp is from Improved Closefaced Helmets and NOT from the WAF Patch. This is wrong because the plugins you choose from the WAF Patch should always load last. See what I'm saying? 

Edited May 8, 2014 by DoYouEvenModBro

[EssArrBee]

Well, since we just decided that imp_helm_imp should be removed this morning, it hasn't been removed. The guide is correct for recommending the use of imp_helm_imp from the WAF patches, but we just need to change it to the version changes we came up with today. The WAF patches are not patches, they are replacers with the WAF changes built in. The order should the Legendary plugin then the imp_helm_imp.esp. This will not matter anymore when we remove the imp_helm_imp.esp and just say to load the legendary plugin behind GDO or something.

[DoYouEvenModBro]

Well, since we just decided that imp_helm_imp should be removed this morning, it hasn't been removed. The guide is correct for recommending the use of imp_helm_imp from the WAF patches, but we just need to change it to the version changes we came up with today. The WAF patches are not patches, they are replacers with the WAF changes built in. The order should the Legendary plugin then the imp_helm_imp.esp. This will not matter anymore when we remove the imp_helm_imp.esp and just say to load the legendary plugin behind GDO or something.

My fault. I was not aware that the "no cloth around the neck optional a.k.a. imp_helm_imp" was being removed. Why are you removing it, if I may ask? 

[EssArrBee]

We are just getting rid of the plugin not the file, we still need the meshes it comes with. We are removing the plugin for the reasons that Kelmych stated above having to do with the very minor change the plugin makes. The minor change isn't worth a plugin slot, but the meshes are worth it.

[DoYouEvenModBro]

We are just getting rid of the plugin not the file, we still need the meshes it comes with. We are removing the plugin for the reasons that Kelmych stated above having to do with the very minor change the plugin makes. The minor change isn't worth a plugin slot, but the meshes are worth it.

Oh, so we are still downloading the file from Weapons and Armor Fixes, but we are only using the meshes, not the plugin. And we are also NOT using the imp_helm_imp plugin from the WAF Patch for ICH. Did I get that right?

[Kelmych]

That's what I would recommend.

 

EDITED: The files from the original WAF mod have all the meshes that are needed.

[DoYouEvenModBro]

I know the meshes from ICH are needed but why aren't the plugins from ICH needed? (not the WAF patch, just the normal plugins that come with the main file and the dawnguard/dragonborn files).

 

 

EDIT: I meant the ICH WAF patch. The one that comes with ICH FOR WAF. Sorry for the confusion. 

Edited May 8, 2014 by DoYouEvenModBro

[EssArrBee]

WAF has no meshes. kyrptopyr is a plugin ninja, but does not seem to do assets except scripts. 

 

That's what I would recommend.

 

The files from the original WAF Improved Closedfaced Helmets mod have all the meshes that are needed.

FTFY

 

There are no meshes in any WAF mods. 

I know the meshes from ICH are needed but why aren't the plugins from ICH needed? (not the WAF patch, just the normal plugins that come with the main file and the dawnguard/dragonborn files).

Dude, look WAF does not have patches, as I've stated already today. WAF offers replacer plugins for the ICH plugins that include the proper WAF changes. The legendary plugin provided by the WAF file is a combined plugin for the ICH plugins. It's called Legendary, so it combines all the DLC stuff, get it?

[DoYouEvenModBro]

I meant that patch for ICH. not WAF. Sorry, this gets confusing.

 

Let me rephrase very simply.

 

Why aren't the plugins from Improved Closefaced Helmets needed?

[EssArrBee]

WAF does not have patches for ICH. Look at the file provided by WAF, it has plugins in it that are the exact same name as the plugins provided by ICH. Now kryptopyr made those plugins with the same name to replace the ones provided by ICH and made a Legendary version so you could use that instead of using the imp_helm.esp, imp_helm_dawn.esp, and imp_help_dbrn.esp.

 

So, the plugins aren't needed because krypotpyr rebuilt them all with WAF changes built in.

[DoYouEvenModBro]

nononono lol. I KNOW that WAF does not have patches for ICH. ICH has a patch for WAF. That isn't what I was asking. I was asking why the plugins for ICH weren't needed.

 

I think you just answered that for me though...so thanks...you're saying that they aren't needed BECAUSE of the legendary.esp that comes with the PATCH FOR WAF ON THE ICH PAGE, right?

 

Haha

 

 

EDIT: Nvm, I was saying it backwards. ugh. You're right. No further questions. 

Edited May 8, 2014 by DoYouEvenModBro

[z929669]

The install instructions for WAF and ICH will be updated and vastly simplified sometime TODAY.

 

Thanks Kelmych, DoubleYou and EssArrBee (and others) for all the clarification. This gigantic discussion born of convoluted instructions can hopefully rest beginning shortly ;)

[kryptopyr]

Is there a way I can simplify all this when I update WAF?  I made the replacement files (for WAF and CCO) in order to help people reduce the number of .esp files, but it sometimes seems as though it's just creating a lot of confusion. 

 

The reason I don't include the meshes and other assets along with WAF is not because I can't handle them, but due to the permissions I have from the original mod authors.  Requiring users to install the meshes/textures from the original mod page is basically just another form of mod dependency.  I could have just made patch files, which would still have required installing the original mod, but would have also been that many additional .esp files.

 

Anyway, I know most of you guys understand this, but I'm just not sure what the best approach is.  I'm trying to make the installation of my mods easier, but I also don't want the result to be less efficient.  Any suggestions?

 

EDIT: Would it be preferred for me to include the small record edit from the Imperial-No cloth around Neck in the Legendary file?

[EssArrBee]

The legendary file helps, but I think we kinda messed up the description and install for a while. That caused a lot of problems for us, since we didn't get that part right for so long and it was confusing to have the optional file installed so much later in the install order, but with MO we don't have that issue since you just move the original plugins to the optional folder and use yours.

 

I think we decided against the Imperial plugin, but kept the meshes.