SKYRIMLE Skyrim Project Stability by GrandBulwark

[DoYouEvenModBro]

Why are we still arguing about this? We have ENB Boost.

[Aiyen]

What is hypocritical is the way the ENTIRE guide is condemned for the sake of one program.

This is what I am trying to tell you that it is not the intention. Nobody is saying "Do not use his guide at all". If that was the cause then it would be true! 

Like I said, I personally do use some of your advice when I help other people, because they are sound and working! But I do not say to people that they should just follow your entire guide in its total, since that might not work for all, with all mod lists! I would do this for any guide however even STEP. 

If you look back, I was one of the first to say that the Z- fighting tweaks that where included did much more harm then good. There was also another tweak about interiors that did alot of issues in certain dungeons, I was also one of the first to say this was bad to use. But I never said that STEP as a whole was bad because of a few isolated entries that are it. The same applies to your guide! 

 

The mods that are Blacklisted are completely founded and they are NOT bashed.

Neither is your guide. It is not even blacklisted. I read what you typed in yellow. But the fact remains that this is exactly the same thing we are doing here. Certain parts of your guide we do not advocate. The main reason being that "numerous" people can confirm that it does not work with their load orders. 

This does again NOT mean that we bash or condemn your entire guide, we just say people should try not to use it and see if the problems go away! 

 

 

Who has PROVEN the ENboost works?  STEP?  I'm sorry but my faith in step is a bit shaken since this fiasco, the last one and the one pertaining to GDO.

No since ENBoost is not developed by us, but by Boris, in fact nobody here has half the technical knowhow he does. However the testing over at his forums and the multitude of people which says it is working backs it up. All with monitor programs, that show the figures match, and play experience that is now smoother etc. Also with it its possible to load in almost full 2k textures and normal in exteriors without issues. Where if you do not use then then you will get CTD and missing textures almost instantly! 

But to conclude, STEP has nothing to do with the development of ENB. STEP also do not advocate its use yet, since it is still being tested by people here. I personally advocate it since it is working for me, and many others as long as you have it setup correctly! 

Basically cleanmem stays because why fix something that isn't broken.  And while you guys are fumbling about updating ENboost twice a day, my memory fix is implanted and in it's final version.

Yeah thats just wrong, ENBoost is in a final version since 2 weeks ago now. Boris have decided that there is nothing else to do since its working, and issues are due to peoples horrible mod lists. Current developement has gone back to graphical functions again. 

 

Despite NO concrete evidence of it's ineffectiveness, cleanmem is bashed constantly and the rest of the guide is overlooked.

Where do you get this from ? Like I said, you have some great advice in there, but certain parts, are not! I think its a great resource, but just because I do not agree with certain parts of it does not mean I overlook the rest! And nobody here have ever done that! 

In that regard I sincerely think you are overreacting! 

 

About concrete evidence. I can personally provide you with it (And there are other people in another thread about it that reported the same). It causes micro stuttering etc. And guess what, if you setup ENBoost with bad settings for your system, the very same issues will also be apparent there! Hence there is a game issue, but the difference is that one is specially made for skyrim, where the other is not, and hence one is ineffective! 

 

Also to return to my above argument. If I setup a my texture amount in exteriors to the very limit of MY machine running with ENBoost then the game is mostly stable and working. If I remove ENBoost, almost instant CTD, and missing textures! If i do it with cleanmem ... the same. Conclusion ENBoost does something that cleanmem does not! conclusion, cleanmem is ineffective, and does not allow the same settings to be used. 

 

EDIT: My guide is not simply about Skyrim, and yes I can in fact say that cleanmem would be safe for use with all applications because ALL it does is utilize the trim API that is included with windows. So by all right Microsoft CREATED the very tool that actually does the works, so what should they purchase?

Sorry for me saying, but that makes little sense. Your title is Skyrim.. the majority of your content is skyrim. Yes some of it applies to other games, but the way I see it then the guide as a whole is for skyrim, not any other game. 

As for the rest. If someone developed a better API then MS has in by standard, do you not think they would then implement that as standard? But that is largely a debate that does not belong here I guess. 

[GrandBulwark]

STEP is in the business of analyzing and criticizing things, and then recommending or not recommending them. That's all. You have praised us in this work, and were very keen to join the team. We do our best to dig down to the facts in an impartial way.

That is not what recent news implies. Rumors started or perpetuated by STEP have damaged the reputation of more than just my guide. I WAS eager to join your team, now you couldn't pay me to be a part of it. STEP used to be great! Now it seems to promote more problems than fixes, and any consideration towards the people doing the work is disregarded and met with negativity.

 

When you find your own work being criticized, and on the wrong side of the argument and the evidence, suddenly we become a wretched conspiracy.

Were your accusations founded it would be a perfectly legitimate criticism. They are not founded however, you cannot disprove the utilities effectiveness or the safety of the tweaks included. To call this a wretched conspiracy is giving this line of thought too much credit. It is at best a misguided perception and at worst, damaging speculation.

 

You will find that I support the work of Boris, of Altimor, and that I try to leave encouraging comments for the many projects I follow. Why would I single you out for persecution? I haven't. I simply do not believe the advice in your guide is good. I believe that your claims are too grand, and that the BIOS changes, "memory optimization", registry "cleaning", and other tweaks you propose are simply a bad idea. That's all I'm saying.

The fact that you endorse the work of others is irrelevant. I cannot answer your question because I don't know why you would single out anything for persecution. I have no problem with you having conscious though either. If you think they are a bad idea then why not just say that? The fact is for all of your talk you've never disproved cleanmem's effectiveness, so to carry on as if it is and indisputable fact that it doesn't work is irresponsible. The BIOS change pertain to HPET which is optional and advanced, both of which are pointed out and the registry "cleaning" is effective on a case-by-case basis, and have never been reported as harmful.

 

You continue to insinuate various ad hominem arguments against me and STEP in general.

I do not think you are helping your case with your current line of over-reaching and slightly hysterical arguments.

Anything I've insinuated was based upon what I've observed. I have no problem with STEP as a whole even now. I don't particularly like how close minded certain individuals have become, but there is a difference between being generally displeased and overtly hateful, which despite my irritation I've tried to avoid. Regardless, there is nothing more to gain here. We've both drawn our lines and I don't foresee anything being resolved by continuing this. I apologize if I've offended you, it wasn't my intention.

[MontyMM]

I'd encourage the rest of the team who might feel the urge to respond not to do, and just let this go away.

[GrandBulwark]

Neither is your guide. It is not even blacklisted. I read what you typed in yellow. But the fact remains that this is exactly the same thing we are doing here. Certain parts of your guide we do not advocate. The main reason being that "numerous" people can confirm that it does not work with their load orders.This does again NOT mean that we bash or condemn your entire guide, we just say people should try not to use it and see if the problems go away!

I don't entirely agree but I see the logic.  "Numerous" people are anecdotal and the majority didn't follow the guide at all, rather just downloaded cleanmem.  That is not an accurate test of cleanmem when pertaining to it's use as a part of my guide.  I also have "numerous" people who advocate the use of it.

No since ENBoost is not developed by us, but by Boris, in fact nobody here has half the technical knowhow he does. However the testing over at his forums and the multitude of people which says it is working backs it up. All with monitor programs, that show the figures match, and play experience that is now smoother etc. Also with it its possible to load in almost full 2k textures and normal in exteriors without issues. Where if you do not use then then you will get CTD and missing textures almost instantly!

But to conclude, STEP has nothing to do with the development of ENB. STEP also do not advocate its use yet, since it is still being tested by people here. I personally advocate it since it is working for me, and many others as long as you have it setup correctly!

Again all of that is anecdotal, the test are not run in a controlled environment and if Boris being the creator makes the binaries functional then by that logic let's got get ATTK, someone created it therefore it must work.  The idea that any one man cannot be wrong when creating a program is not a valid argument, even with extensive knowledge like Boris'.  That said, I know the functionality of the ENB is there; I use it.  However it does not replace cleanmem, and I have the same anecdotal evidence Boris has for Enboost; only it's for cleanmem.

About concrete evidence. I can personally provide you with it (And there are other people in another thread about it that reported the same). It causes micro stuttering etc. And guess what, if you setup ENBoost with bad settings for your system, the very same issues will also be apparent there! Hence there is a game issue, but the difference is that one is specially made for skyrim, where the other is not, and hence one is ineffective!

 

Also to return to my above argument. If I setup a my texture amount in exteriors to the very limit of MY machine running with ENBoost then the game is mostly stable and working. If I remove ENBoost, almost instant CTD, and missing textures! If i do it with cleanmem ... the same. Conclusion ENBoost does something that cleanmem does not! conclusion, cleanmem is ineffective, and does not allow the same settings to be used.

All of the evidence you have seen and can provide is anecdotal.  Even Monty will concede to that.  I've read the article studied that charts and read the posts.  I decided to let experience win the day, and it has.  Your logic is flawed, just because something isn't designed for a particular purpose doesn't mean that it cannot be just as effective or more effective than something that is.  EG.  burning a wasp nest with a Flame-thrower.  Your conclusion is also flawed at least from the standpoint of this mod, why?  It has no scientific basis other than your anecdotal evidence and that of others.

Sorry for me saying, but that makes little sense. Your title is Skyrim.. the majority of your content is skyrim. Yes some of it applies to other games, but the way I see it then the guide as a whole is for skyrim, not any other game.

As for the rest. If someone developed a better API then MS has in by standard, do you not think they would then implement that as standard? But that is largely a debate that does not belong here I guess.

The majority of the information is for Skyrim, but that does not mean that is the only thing offered.  There are numerous OS tweaks and utilities for the general improvement of the Windows 7 operating system.  Cleanmem is also transferable to other aspects, although I cannot speculate as to it's effectiveness with other games; though I can venture to say it is safe.

 

Cleanmem is there by default, in a manner of speaking.  Cleanmem does NOTHING except create an interval at which the windows trim API runs trimming the working set.  Why would MS need to implement something that is already included? 

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I'd encourage the rest of the team who might feel the urge to respond not to do' date=' and just let this go away.[/quote']

Wonderful we are finally in agreement.

[GrandBulwark]

Okay, so a resolution here isn't possible. I would like to request that references to my guide are removed from STEP entirely. It is collectively my intellectual property and I have no desire to see it on this site ever again. Please honor my request so that this nonsense may die.

[Aiyen]

Is the resolution not that we agree to disagree ?

 

We do not say your entire guide is bad, just that based on anecdotal evidence there are parts of it we do not recommend people trying. And you can do the same. Since this seems to me to be at the core of the issue.

 

Seems like a perfectly good solution! And then someday when all involved are more cooled down and clear we can have another healthy technical and philosophical debate.

[GrandBulwark]

Is the resolution not that we agree to disagree ?

 

We do not say your entire guide is bad, just that based on anecdotal evidence there are parts of it we do not recommend people trying. And you can do the same. Since this seems to me to be at the core of the issue.

 

Seems like a perfectly good solution! And then someday when all involved are more cooled down and clear we can have another healthy technical and philosophical debate.

After some extended though, and some helpful posts like this one ^^^ I withdraw my request.  I over reacted and I would like to apologize to STEP as a whole.  While I stand by much of what I said, the manner in which I said it was uncalled for and the result of the frustration of long hours answering questions and supporting people who I genuinely want to help.  That said, that isn't excuse.  I would like to extend a personal apology to MontyMM; I'm sorry.  I will explain the reason for my outburst in a more private setting, however a public apology is in order when the issues have been voiced in public.  

 

Agreeing to disagree is acceptable.  Though I would appreciate a bit more effort to show more tact when referring to the work of others in general.

[MontyMM]

No problem.  I'm sure we can sort things out.

 

Just locking this thread for a while, so we can all chill out.