SKYRIMSE Collections of Nexusmods is in open alpha

[theblackman]

57 minutes ago, z929669 said:

I adopted no such "annoyed and somewhat insulting tone" with you. I know, because I was consciously taking care not to.

And I adopted no such sarcastic tone.  I also know because I wasn't in a sarcastic frame of mind and I was consciously taking care to be as objective as possible.

Please do me the courtesy, as I do for you, of not imputing onto me or of assuming the mental state I am in at any time.

57 minutes ago, z929669 said:

Giving a bit of quarter goes a long way.

Indeed it does, and this is helped by not making erroneous assumptions about another person's mental state and not deliberately throwing their actions into the least charitable light.

57 minutes ago, z929669 said:

Try to be understanding, and really read what you post as if you are not you.

I honestly don't understand what this means.  I had hoped, from my comments above in response to the personal attacks allegation, that I would convey that I am choosing my words with precision and care.

Edited August 26, 2022 by theblackman

[z929669]

57 minutes ago, theblackman said:

And I adopted no such sarcastic tone.  I also know because I wasn't in a sarcastic frame of mind and I was consciously taking care to be as objective as possible.

Please do me the courtesy, as I do for you, of not imputing onto me or of assuming the mental state I am in at any time.

Indeed it does, and this is helped by not making erroneous assumptions about another person's mental state and not deliberately throwing their actions into the least charitable light.

I honestly don't understand what this means.  I had hoped, from my comments above in response to the personal attacks allegation, that I would convey that I am choosing my words with precision and care.

But in your last post, you insinuated the I DID, else you would not have made the comment? Look at your quote of me and your contextual response in your previous post to which I responded.

I mean: pretend you are someone that you are not and read your posts from that standpoint. Just objectively read what you have written along with the context you wrote it. In some of your previous posts. I know this ain't easy, because you ARE you, but I do this and often find that the things I write or say to other people could be misinterpreted due to my tone or choice or words (and the context in which I spoke/wrote). This is especially true if I AM annoyed by the post (which, frankly, happens with me ... I am can get annoyed by how people post, especially if it involves a flippant response to me and there is disagreement ahead of it. I'm human.).

[theblackman]

If I might sidebar for a moment:

In this thread,

1. I have been accused of being sarcastic
2. I have been accused of not being objective
3. of intentionally being insulting and posting with an annoying and insulting tone
4. of being argumentative
5. of being offended
6. of trying to change someone's views to match my own
7. of coming in hot and attacking personal opinions
8. of being passive-aggressive
9. of being upset and angry
10. I've had my what I've written and my intentions deliberately thrown into an uncharitable light
11. The words I've used have been made fun of and then I've been threatened for making 'personal jabs'
12. I've shown how some comments objectively don't comply with the Citizenship Guide and had this casually dismissed as 'incorrect and unnecessarily argumentative and sarcastic' when I didn't actually say/write anything
13. I've been accused of having trouble acquiescing or of admitting fault

But not once has anybody actually asked if I was feeling/intentionally being any of those things and not once (as far as I can tell) was any one of these accusations actually substantiated with evidence or a reason.

Please do your fellow human beings the courtesy of not assuming their state of mind, nor of imputing onto them a state of mind.

It's hard enough accurately reading someone in person let alone trying to do it from the words they've written on a forum, words that by their nature are often imprecise, no matter how hard we try to use the appropriate one.

Invariably you will be wrong about their state of mind/intentions, and once you've made the accusation, it's very hard to put the genie back in the bottle and can derail a conversation that otherwise might have been quite productive.  Not to mention the fact that it's fairly arrogant to just assume someone else's state of mind and it's frustrating and unfair for the person who has to take the time to refute the false assumption.

If you are unsure, just ask them rather than assuming you know what/how they're thinking/feeling or what they intended.  That's the reasonable and responsible thing to do.

Or better yet, just don't make any assumption at all.
 

Edited August 26, 2022 by theblackman

[z929669]

2 hours ago, theblackman said:

If I might sidebar for a moment:

In this thread,

1. I have been accused of being sarcastic
2. I have been accused of not being objective
3. of intentionally being insulting and posting with an annoying and insulting tone
4. of being argumentative
5. of being offended
6. of trying to change someone's views to match my own
7. of coming in hot and attacking personal opinions
8. of being passive-aggressive
9. of being upset and angry
10. I've had my what I've written and my intentions deliberately thrown into an uncharitable light
11. The words I've used have been made fun of and then I've been threatened for making 'personal jabs'
12. I've shown how some comments objectively don't comply with the Citizenship Guide and had this casually dismissed as 'incorrect and unnecessarily argumentative and sarcastic' when I didn't actually say/write anything
13. I've been accused of having trouble acquiescing or of admitting fault

But not once has anybody actually asked if I was feeling/intentionally being any of those things and not once (as far as I can tell) was any one of these accusations actually substantiated with evidence or a reason.

Please do your fellow human beings the courtesy of not assuming their state of mind, nor of imputing onto them a state of mind.

It's hard enough accurately reading someone in person let alone trying to do it from the words they've written on a forum, words that by their nature are often imprecise, no matter how hard we try to use the appropriate one.

Invariably you will be wrong about their state of mind/intentions, and once you've made the accusation, it's very hard to put the genie back in the bottle and can derail a conversation that otherwise might have been quite productive.  Not to mention the fact that it's fairly arrogant to just assume someone else's state of mind and it's frustrating and unfair for the person who has to take the time to refute the false assumption.

If you are unsure, just ask them rather than assuming you know what/how they're thinking/feeling or what they intended.  That's the reasonable and responsible thing to do.

Or better yet, just don't make any assumption at all.
 

... and still you fail to yield any quarter after I have done so at least twice.

you are evidently always right. Whomever is debating you is evidently always wrong. You are beyond human, I am a mere human. You do not judge or assume at all, only me.

Don't you see it? Re-read your posts. Much of what you say and how you say it is insulting to the person you are criticizing (not so much me as Tech, and I totally understand your calling out the "proper modding" thing.). I'm only arguing with you about how your posts are being interpreted by onlookers other than yourself. You use combative and snarky phraseology. There is no need for me to go to the effort of pulling it in this post, because it's evident if you objectively review. Here's another quarter: I do the same sometimes in small doses for emphasis. I think many people do. The only difference is that you don't yield any quarter at all and just keep on going. It's genuinely combative.

[TechAngel85]

2 hours ago, theblackman said:

If I might sidebar for a moment: 

Invariably you will be wrong about their state of mind/intentions, and once you've made the accusation, it's very hard to put the genie back in the bottle and can derail a conversation that otherwise might have been quite productive.  Not to mention the fact that it's fairly arrogant to just assume someone else's state of mind and it's frustrating and unfair for the person who has to take the time to refute the false assumption.

If you are unsure, just ask them rather than assuming you know what/how they're thinking/feeling or what they intended.  That's the reasonable and responsible thing to do.

Or better yet, just don't make any assumption at all.
 

I fully agree with your statement here. With that in mind, I ask is what about your assumptions and my defense that my opinions were just opinions and not facts that needed to be backed up by hard data? You actually told me that I was hiding behind calling it in opinion, hence my defense of such since. It's been frustrating and unfair to have to consistently refute your false assumptions. 

This is all I was asking of you, as well. 

The problem is, at least some, not all, of your responses seem to be inflaming toward a person and not an idea or topic. My comments were never toward any specific individuals. I referred to a category of users, a user base, without putting any specific individuals into that category. That is no different than talking about "men" or "women" in a general context. In contrast, at least part of your replies have been directly towards me, an individual, and not the topic. That's what we are referring to. 

Another example besides the one above, which initialize the moderation... When I provided you with more of the information that you were requesting, instead of replying to that information and carrying on the conversation, you opted to post about how you perceived that I was violating the Citizenship Guide (what you referred to are suggestions, not policy. we don't moderate on those things, but they're to help prevent topics like this).

Someone coming in objectively and reading all this would have to ask themselves why this was done? I, personally, would conclude this appears like inflammatory behavior and would respond appropriately (which Z opted for a written verbal rather than the warning system with 0 points).

The purpose of this post is to hopefully provide understanding about what z and I are referring to when we're talking about any type of inflammatory content within these posts. I fully admit Z and I took a couple of our own little jabs, but it was only because we perceived jabs in the first place. We were okay trying to continue as small things like this usually resolve themselves with redirected conversation. However it has not in this instance so very, very light moderation is stepping in, of which I have removed myself from so any moderation will be coming directly from other staff.

[theblackman]

1 hour ago, z929669 said:

... and still you fail to yield any quarter after I have done so at least twice.

you are evidently always right. Whomever is debating you is evidently always wrong. You are beyond human, I am a mere human. You do not judge or assume at all, only me.

Don't you see it? Re-read your posts. Much of what you say and how you say it is insulting to the person you are criticizing (not so much me as Tech, and I totally understand your calling out the "proper modding" thing.). I'm only arguing with you about how your posts are being interpreted by onlookers other than yourself. You use combative and snarky phraseology. There is no need for me to go to the effort of pulling it in this post, because it's evident if you objectively review. Here's another quarter: I do the same sometimes in small doses for emphasis. I think many people do. The only difference is that you don't yield any quarter at all and just keep on going. It's genuinely combative.

You could have endorsed or agreed with the request in my sidebar, as Tech did, in the interests of continuing in a more productive and positive manner. Yet you didn't.  That's disappointing.  It seems like you are trying to force me to agree with your assumptions about my state of mind and intentions.  I won't as they are untrue and I reject your assessment of my phraseology as inaccurate.

1 hour ago, TechAngel85 said:

<snippity>

The snip you agreed with didn't include my underlined sentence, which I felt was the most important part.  Did you not agree with it?

Edited August 26, 2022 by theblackman

[TechAngel85]

49 minutes ago, theblackman said:

 

The snip you agreed with didn't include my underlined sentence, which I felt was the most important part.  Did you not agree with it?

I thought that was implied because it's on the same subject, but yes, of course.

The only thing I wish to add for clarity is that moderation will sometimes include assumptions. There's just simply no way around that regardless of how unbiased the moderation is. Moderation does not include going to the user and asking "what do you mean by this?". Moderation happens from the context of what the user posts, uploads, etc. since the user has already agreed to their guidelines by using the platform. For example, does Facebook come and ask you if you were being nice when they're moderating your post? No, they just removed it and hand you your consequences. Moderation is really no different for that no matter where you are, Step included.

My evidence for those moderation statements is my job. I really can't say more than that, but with that and my previous comment one could probably piece a few things together.

[theblackman]

34 minutes ago, TechAngel85 said:

I thought that was implied because it's on the same subject, but yes, of course.

That's a relief.

35 minutes ago, TechAngel85 said:

For example, does Facebook come and ask you if you were being nice when they're moderating your post?

But STEP are the good guys.  Also, we have all collaborated and continue to collaborate on making modding better, so given we have an actual relationship of sorts, it's a bit different.

[TechAngel85]

3 hours ago, theblackman said:

That's a relief.

But STEP are the good guys.  Also, we have all collaborated and continue to collaborate on making modding better, so given we have an actual relationship of sorts, it's a bit different.

Yes, it is a bit different. We hardly ever moderate over here and we like it that way. It's also why we haven't given any warnings on this topic for anyone and why we're still conversing. We don't like to go into moderator mode. Unless it's on spammers or trolls...they receive our full wrath.

Honestly the d y n d o l o d forums receive the most moderation simply because most Nexus users are basically coming hear for support.
EDIT: lol...just noticed what the voice dictation on my phone did with 'DynDOLOD'. 

[Whitestar127]

On 8/23/2022 at 7:00 PM, TechAngel85 said:

Modding has always been a journey into learning a new hobby and automation takes all that away. Many of us see it as a scape goat and, yes, it has it's purposes but those are done for specific tasks (xLODGen, DynDOLOD, etc), are niche, or due to unwillingness. Even for those that only have a few hours a night, modding can still be done properly rather than relying on shortcuts. Shortcuts in modding always have consequences or restrictions. Those of us on staff can attest to the limited free time because the entirely of Step has been ran during our free time for years. The actual problem is never really time, but the willingness to spend that time modding the game to get to the point of playing it. Modding is the journey and playing the game is the reward of completing that journey. Automation takes you straight to the reward part. The consequences for that is the users haven't learned anything and still don't know anything about actual modding.

And many of us see automation as a time saver, nothing more.

Here's my suggestion, and bear with me as I don't know exactly what can and can't be done with Wabbajack:

What if you just provided all of Step 4 as a Wabbajack optional download and install (excluding such things as SKSE that must be installed manually), programming it to pre-select all options including weather and ENB? Wouldn't that ensure that everything got installed correctly and thereby reduce the need for support, or in other words reduce the chance of user-errors?

On 8/26/2022 at 8:30 PM, theblackman said:

And by the way, you are reading that tone into my comments.  I am neither annoyed nor am I trying to be insulting.

Well that's good, as intentions do matter. He's not alone though, as I also found some of your posts rather confrontational.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Whitestar127

[theblackman]

1 hour ago, Whitestar127 said:

Well that's good, as intentions do matter. He's not alone though, as I also found some of your posts rather confrontational.

Do you mean the one where I implored everyone to not assume another's state of mind (basically the golden rule)?  

[Whitestar127]

1 hour ago, theblackman said:

Do you mean the one where I implored everyone to not assume another's state of mind (basically the golden rule)?  

I'm referring to your posts, not your state of mind.

[theblackman]

35 minutes ago, Whitestar127 said:

I'm referring to your posts, not your state of mind.

That was one of my posts. 

[DoubleYou]

I do want to look at Wabbajack at some point, but right now I have my hands full with a few other projects I want to do first, so I likely won't have time until maybe next year. My timeline as it is now:

• Finish ACMOS update. 
• Release road lods in coordination with ACMOS update, dynamically adding roads to the map via object lod. 
• Develop the Fallout 4 guide
• Contribute a bunch of missing mods to the Fallout 4 LOOT masterlist. 
• Continue creating missing LODs for Fallout 4. 
• Finish and release Bethini Pie. 

Not sure how long this is going to take me. 

[soupdragon]

On 8/23/2022 at 6:00 PM, TechAngel85 said:

Those of us on staff can attest to the limited free time because the entirely of Step has been ran during our free time for years. The actual problem is never really time, but the willingness to spend that time modding the game to get to the point of playing it. Modding is the journey and playing the game is the reward of completing that journey. Automation takes you straight to the reward part. The consequences for that is the users haven't learned anything and still don't know anything about actual modding. They've learned to push buttons, that's it. I'm of the stance that is not modding and, yes, I'll admit I hold back an eyeroll when someone says they are a modder but all they have done is clicked a couple "install" buttons and everything was done for them.

The point of all that is to say, the Devs are mostly on that side of the fence. I doubt any of them have any interest in Collections. No "power user" would be and I certainly don't. If Step has a Collection, it will be provided by other staff because I'm not adding that kind of maintenance to my belt when I've gone out of my way to reduce maintenance tasks over the last couple years.

I agree up to a point there is a journey involved in modding a game but for me thats my own personal list which I've invested a great deal of time setting up the way I want (and dealing with the inevitable bugs/inconsistencies/issues that need ironing out) but its a difficult sell to try and get someone to experience someone else's vision because of the amount of investment in time and more involved. I'll be honest and say that other than cherry picking individual mods I've liked the look of or configuation settings I've needed I've never installed the full STEPS collection of mods as listed for precisely this reason and the same is true of Lexy's guide and thats where an automated collections or the more curated and maintained WJ lists come into their own theres nothing more I'd like than to give either a try but the amount of work required currently is daunting and theres no guarantee I'd like the end result any more than you'd like my personal mod list/collection that I've built up over the years. Of course I understand that maintaining such a list/collection is more work and that no-one may be willing to do such a thing and that maintaining/creating mods and lists of is purely a I'll-work-on-it-when-I-feel-like-it thing because I'm the same.

Would such a thing make users purely consumers of content like say TV viewers, flick through channels or lists til they find something that interests them? Possibly, but thats likely the way things are heading because its the way things have always headed (a history of computing says that from when home computers first became popular it was an "experience" to install games from tapes or floppies you were even encouraged to create your own programs that has largely fallen by the wayside and given way to todays generation of cellphone users who are almost entirely IT illiterate. But thats a whole other discussion)