SKYRIMSE Collections of Nexusmods is in open alpha

[Whitestar127]

  On 8/24/2022 at 1:09 AM, Greg said:

I've gone through setting up the guide so many times over the years that I developed a habit years ago to download the mods with a browser and store them in a folder structure that matches the mod groups in the guide. When I want to rebuild a guide, I can simply drag 'n drop the mods from Explorer into Mod Organizer. The only time I need to download from Nexus is to pick up updated versions, new mods, or new optional files. It's a lot faster to setup the guide this way, it reduces the bandwidth, and I have a tidy archive of mods available whenever I want them. The bandwidth equation is important because my mom has health issues so she's using about 80% of my bandwidth cap watching videos all day and tinkering with her crafts while she watches. Time is also important because I may get an hour or two in the evening after she goes to bed for gaming.

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That's a very good idea!

If you do it that way, will MO2 tell you if a mod is outdated via a warning, or do you need to keep track of it yourself?

[Greg]

If you install an FOMOD, Mod Organizer automatically picks up and uses the version number embedded in the FOMOD. For all other mods, you'll need to enter the version number manually. Mod Organizer recognizes the NexusID in the file name for the majority of mods but it recognizes the version number only for FOMOD installers. You can either get this directly from the file name (Dragon Stalking Fix-14060-1-3.7z where 14060 is the NexusID and 1-3 is Version 1.3). For the occasional mod in which the file version doesn't match the mod version, you can either use the file version and ignore the version alert or create a text file named something like "Mod Name-version.txt" and use the version number in the text file. Some folks even copy 'n paste the mod description into the text file so they have it available in case the mod gets hidden. Also note that when you install a mod and Mod Organizer recognizes the NexusID, it downloads a meta.ini file that contains the version number shown in the left pane, the newest version of mod on Nexus, and the full description from the Description tab.

To change the version number in Mod Organizer, you can either double click the mod to open the Information dialog, click the Nexus Info tab, and enter the version number in the Version text box. The easier way to do it is to click on the mod to select it and then click on the Version column to edit the version right in the grid.

[theblackman]

  On 8/23/2022 at 5:00 PM, TechAngel85 said:

Modding has always been a journey into learning a new hobby and automation takes all that away.

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Here we go again.  For most people, modding one's game is merely a means to an end.  Playing the actual game is the hobby.  Downloading, installing and conflict resolution are tasks that, I'd dare to venture,  most people wouldn't consider a journey and would gladly avoid given a choice.  The journey is the adventure in the game they modded.

  On 8/23/2022 at 5:00 PM, TechAngel85 said:

Even for those that only have a few hours a night, modding can still be done properly rather than relying on shortcuts.

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Please provide a definition for 'modding done properly', that avoids use of value judgements and bias and define shortcuts that would be ok to use on a 'modding journey'.  Personally if I had to provide a definition, I doubt it would include 'following a curated mod list'.

  On 8/23/2022 at 5:00 PM, TechAngel85 said:

The actual problem is never really time

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Time is the most precious 'resource' we have so yes, time is the actual problem, or rather wanting to use one's time most effectively.

You arbitrarily accept some automation tools as ok 'because reasons' but dismiss others as being antithetical to the 'modding journey'.

It's a shame you haven't modified your views since our last collision on this subject because you still continue to make biased and selective value judgements and make statements so general in nature about a fairly nuanced domain, that they are rendered virtually valueless because they fail to encompass any of that nuance.

Your stance is inconsistent, arbitrary, laden with double standards and frankly, wrong-headed.

[z929669]

I personally find modding itself to be my hobby, and I know that the same is true for most guide curators and mod authors. Users on the other hand are just as likely to hate it. This is why Wabbajack and Collections are popular. I personally enjoy curating a recipe that (theoretically) anyone can follow. I'm pedantic, and I enjoy creating process.

I don't like answering complicated questions from those that obviously don't want to put in the time to RTFM. I enjoy answering questions that indeed do need asking or that are simple to answer (or that are interesting). In this way, Wabbajack and Collections can make my life easier whilst allowing me to do what I like to do (which is not so much to play but to mod).

Remember that modding began more as a tinkerer's hobby and turned into a sort of service with some unrealistic expectations from some that use the services. People that only want to click a button and have a modded build need to manage their expectations that such services are prone to error beyond a curator's control and that some level of troubleshooting ability must exist on the part of the user. Else such users should just buy Skyrim and play their hearts out. It's ready to go straight OOtB (hundreds of hours of this leads some to become modding hobbyists)

Aside from all that, Step is a hobby site. Our primary goal is to teach those that want to learn how to mod Bethesda (and other) games. We do this, because it WAS a very difficult and confusing undertaking 10+ years ago when the information (much of it unreliable) was scattered across the internet. Only a few decent sites had limited guidance for the layman. Step was born for this reason alone. I do want to create a Collection at some point just to make life easier (or not?) and just because I like polish. But I can see it from both sides. THIS site was made for the "curious/tinkering" layman and NOT the "automate-it" layman, so our people will sound a bit old school and outdated perhaps. But there will always be curious/tinkering people that want to learn. This is our base and our target.

[TechAngel85]

You're tearing apart what was an opinion post, and seem to be offended by it? My opinions and views are my own. If you don't like them, that's okay. Not everyone is going to agree on everything. Diversity makes the world a better and more interesting place. I'm not sure why you're so bent on getting me to change my views to match that of your own rather than accept me as I am. We don't have to agree to get along. Now if you want to debate, lets debate the subject (Collections and the like), but don't come hot attacking personal opinions.

  On 8/24/2022 at 11:21 PM, theblackman said:

Here we go again.  For most people, modding one's game is merely a means to an end.  Playing the actual game is the hobby.  Downloading, installing and conflict resolution are tasks that, I'd dare to venture,  most people wouldn't consider a journey and would gladly avoid given a choice.  The journey is the adventure in the game they modded.

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I agree with you, but would change your wording to, "For most 'end users', modding one's game is merely a means to an to an end." I've already mention that most 'power users' wouldn't likely be interested in such automation simply due to the fact these types of users are typically 'tinkers' who like to control most aspects of the software/hardware as they can. The difference in our views here is a difference in perspective. Your perspective being closer to an everyday 'user' vs mine being closer to a 'power user' or author. 

  On 8/24/2022 at 11:21 PM, theblackman said:

Please provide a definition for 'modding done properly', that avoids use of value judgements and bias and define shortcuts that would be ok to use on a 'modding journey'.  Personally if I had to provide a definition, I doubt it would include 'following a curated mod list'.

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"Modding done properly" is just an opinion and viewpoint, which you seem to be passive aggressively calling out. If it upsets you, I apologize for the feelings it's caused. Any such phrase is going to have a wide range of views for what it means based on personal experience, opinions and views. Specially, this phrase was in reference to automation vs manual and I'll not address it further than discussing that comparison. 

  On 8/24/2022 at 11:21 PM, theblackman said:

Time is the most precious 'resource' we have so yes, time is the actual problem, or rather wanting to use one's time most effectively.

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The "use one's time most effectively" is another phrase that is going to have a wide range of views for what that is, and that is going to vary from person to person based on what they believe is the best use of their time.

  On 8/24/2022 at 11:21 PM, theblackman said:

You arbitrarily accept some automation tools as ok 'because reasons' but dismiss others as being antithetical to the 'modding journey'.

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Not arbitrary, simply not expanded upon.  Ask nicely.

  On 8/24/2022 at 11:21 PM, theblackman said:

It's a shame you haven't modified your views since our last collision on this subject because you still continue to make biased and selective value judgements and make statements so general in nature about a fairly nuanced domain, that they are rendered virtually valueless because they fail to encompass any of that nuance.

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Are expecting for everyone to agree with you and align to your views? At present and to be perfectly clear, I see and understand your viewpoint. I get your and most user's perspectives on automation. Most users want it and we hear that view all the time. However, we don't hear the other side and view near as often and that is what I've voicing. It's not a popular thing, if that isn't obvious; to go against the grain. However, just because it's the majority view doesn't mean I have to agree with it or am going to align myself with that view and perspective. I'm allowed my own opinion just as you are allowed to disagree with them all you like. It doesn't bother me that you do.

What I am seeing right now is that you're not able to see it from my perspective. At the very least, your reply hasn't led me to conclude that. If you do, then that is great!  That means we understand one another and can simply agree to disagree. That is simply respecting one's opinion and their right to have that opinion without any negative aspect to it. There is no need for personal jabs and I apologize if any of my opinion came off in such a way to upset you.

  On 8/24/2022 at 11:21 PM, theblackman said:

Your stance is inconsistent, arbitrary, laden with double standards and frankly, wrong-headed.

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Honestly this would warrant you a warning toward any other user, but since it was toward me I'm going to take it you just need to step away for a moment. I'll say it again, we don't have to agree to get along. We can respect opposing opinions and still be able to debate them.

[theblackman]

  On 8/25/2022 at 1:58 AM, TechAngel85 said:

<snippity>

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The content of your reply makes it abundantly clear that you have either misread or misinterpreted me.  This isn't a difference of opinion.

This is the equivalent of one person saying 'astrology is a good method for determining mate selection' and someone else saying: please substantiate your assertion with evidence and logic.

I do disagree with your views because they:

1.  Are not supported by any evidence;
2.  Clearly and objectively contain double standards and arbitrary decisions;
3.  Are not separable from your own inherent confirmation biases;
4.  Rely on vague terms which you've never bothered to or simply refuse to define, nor could you e.g. 'proper modding';
5.  Rely on you making broad and sweeping generalisations about a huge group of people (mod users) again based on no evidence - honestly, why do you think this is acceptable behaviour?

Mischaracterising and casually dismissing my legitimate criticism of your views as a 'difference of opinion' given the clear and compelling deficiencies I've identified and further compounding it by encouraging me to step away for a moment only shows that you seem to be unable to grasp how precarious the foundation is on which you've built your shaky thesis.

#1 above on its own should be enough for you to reconsider your worldview.

Did you notice that nothing in your reply to me makes your opinion any more convincing, you provide no definitions, no evidence, but there does seem to be a lot of evasiveness.

  On 8/25/2022 at 1:58 AM, TechAngel85 said:

What I am seeing right now is that you're not able to see it from my perspective.

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Here and in the other thread I've provided direct rebuttal to many of the points you made.  That means I had to read and understand the points you made.  Clearly I could not have done that if I was unable to consider your perspective.  Accusations like this are clearly untrue so why bother to make them?  I'm surprised at you.

____

To avoid any further misinterpretations or mischaracterisations, let me make my position abundantly clear to you:

Stop believing in and promulgating BS, particularly on a forum where you have some considerable influence, just because it suits your point of view and then hiding behind a 'it's just an opinion' shield when someone challenges you on the claims you made in order to try justify why you hold that opinion.

Edited August 25, 2022 by theblackman

[DoubleYou]

I have to disagree. It is the argument of self-driving cars versus driving your own car. Some see self-driving cars as a savior to rid them of the menial task of driving the car. Others see driving the car as a very important and even enjoyable task. There are arguments on both sides supporting both. 

The issue with self-driving cars is the same as automatic mod installation. It works great until it does something undesired. It might take a different route to your destination then you would have taken if doing it yourself. It might choose a tree mod you dislike. It could even encounter a software issue and fail spectacularly. Development and deployment of self-driving cars is extremely difficult work. The same is true, of course to a lesser degree, with prepping and maintaining a correct mod list. 

Tech isn't providing the evidence you desire because, to him, it is self-evident due to the large amount of time and experience he has. You must understand that he is not anti-Collections or anti-Wabbajack in that he would stop people from using them if he could. He has instead expressed no interest in developing and maintaining one via his own free time. That is work. We find working on stuff we enjoy enjoyable. If we must work on stuff we don't enjoy, we will naturally want to retire from that asap. 

[theblackman]

  On 8/25/2022 at 9:48 AM, DoubleYou said:

<snippity>

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You've entirely missed the point of my comments and responses which is bemusing because I clearly explained them in my last response to him.  I've never accused Tech of being anti-collections or anti-wabbajack.  He must be anti-demons though, given he's an angel....

  On 8/25/2022 at 9:48 AM, DoubleYou said:

Tech isn't providing the evidence you desire because, to him, it is self-evident due to the large amount of time and experience he has. 

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The reason Tech isn't providing evidence is that there is none. How do you know this self-evident evidence (a fantastic oxymoron) isn't merely confirmation bias? 

You don't....

I've been modding ES games since 2006 and making mods for nearly a decade and I've never seen any evidence that automation leads to a dumbing down of the average mod user, or makes them lazier, as Tech has claimed elsewhere.  And neither have any of my peers over at GMAD.  Perhaps my large amount of time and experience is somehow inferior to Tech's....?

The problem with analogies is that something is always lost in the comparison and often oversimplifies domains that are complex and nuanced. Like the modding community and ecosystem.  And your car analogy is problematic in another way but it's largely irrelevant to the discussion here.

Edited August 25, 2022 by theblackman

[z929669]

I had attempted to convey this in my last post and largely failed, so I will try again:

@TechAngel85's position (I assume) on "proper modding" being a manual rather than an automated methodology is born out of years of answering questions from those that do not want to RTFM and just want every mod they install to just 'work' and to affect the game according to some subjective assumptions ... and to work with any number of other mods in concert without any additional hassle. Many of these people make wild assumptions that a 'problem' exists that is attributable to a given mod or get frustrated and become insulting ... or continue asking bothersome questions repeatedly in lieu of gaining understanding from experimentation and self service. All because they just don't want to put in the effort to achieve a result independently. So if people do RTFM and follow instructions and learn some basics, their expectations would effectively be grounded to reality, and they might not generalize, assume, or assert blame incorrectly or unfairly. It's akin to the frustration of being the target of unreasonable expectations or assertions of 'blame' or a 'problem' when it is really on them to understand some basics (PC basics for one and a basic understanding of how the game and mods work). Rather than repeated hand holding and gracefully accepting passive or direct insults or suffering the time suck of constantly addressing what is addressed in the instructions or in previous post Q&A, it's natural to say things like "Don't expect me to constantly provide you with personal services when I have done my best to preempt all of your failures to follow instructions or seek out information that I have painstakingly created for you." OR "Please learn how to 'mod properly' so I don't have the responsibility of mitigating the misinformation you are ultimately spreading and thereby creating even more work for me."

This is a significant "user class", and they are the most vocal with insulting complaints about how the mod author is somehow purposefully making their lives difficult or making some process inaccessible to the layperson. Very frustrating and annoying. Just review the DynDOLOD topic and sheson's infinite patience with such users (the worst posts are hidden for good reason).

I believe @theblackman's position is that it's unreasonable to generalize that all of those that want to see an automated process are somehow unable or unwilling to "mod properly" in accordance with it's subjective and arbitrary connotations. Most users want to implement a mod build and play the game without hassle, and automation would expedite this. It doesn't mean that those with this desire are not smart or tenacious or DIY-ish enough to figure it out for themselves. They just prefer to minimize the manual labor, because they don't necessarily enjoy it.

---

I find it easy to identify with either position, and I can easily defend either position, because each is largely subjective. The 'problem' we are witnessing here is semantics of delivering the subjective opinions.

The inherent problem with automation in this realm is that automation relies on consistency. There is a lot of inconsistency in modding when you are talking about hundreds of mods that are independently maintained. Sometimes, this inconsistency breaks automation and troubleshooting is needed (whilst getting more or less politely prodded and sometimes abused by demanding users with unreasonable expectations born of their automated worlds full of conveniences and some sense of entitlement as unique snowflakes).

[TechAngel85]

Hmmm... I am reading your posts as coming in hot, to be honest. You seem a bit upset or angry from your sharp retorts as if you've been attacked on a personal level, but perhaps it's just passion coming through as such. In any case, that is how your posts read to me. Even though, you seem to want to get into this so lets it do.  I also get the feeling you either work more in black and white or, at the least, that is more of what you're asking for so I will try to adjust in my responses.

  On 8/25/2022 at 3:33 AM, theblackman said:

I do disagree with your views because they:

1.  Are not supported by any evidence;
2.  Clearly and objectively contain double standards and arbitrary decisions;
3.  Are not separable from your own inherent confirmation biases;
4.  Rely on vague terms which you've never bothered to or simply refuse to define, nor could you e.g. 'proper modding';
5.  Rely on you making broad and sweeping generalisations about a huge group of people (mod users) again based on no evidence - honestly, why do you think this is acceptable behaviour?

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1. Why does a personal opinion need to be supported by outwardly evidence? I'd never tied to sell my opinions as absolutes, yet you seem to have taken them as such. That's on you, not me. They're just opinions based from my own experiences, not facts based on a pool of 1000 queried users and the data analyzed and placed into nice charts. I don't understand why you feel the need for an opinion, anyone's opinion, to be validated because opinions aren't also validate-able to everyone simply because opinion based on experience will differ from person to person. That is science for you, and can and has been proved. The best you can do it try to understand it because your experience will be different from other's.
2. Perhaps with more information you'd understand better my stance on automating mod installs and know that decisions aren't arbitrary. You actually can't possibly know anything about my decisions without an account of why I've come to my conclusions. You're making a lot a assumptions.
3. Please expand beyond you so elegantly saying that my opinion is based on own bias confirmations, or is that all you're saying? Don't get me started on bias. My RL job requires unbiased consciousness. It's literally a job requirement and I'm tested on it monthly. Still employed so... Every single thing you've stated has been bias toward your own personal unconscious bias that was learned through your own life experience. Look it up. The most I can say is I work for one of the top social media platforms...dumb NDAs.
4. "Proper modding" to me means to install mods manually rather than relying on automation for that task; specially talking only about mod installations. You seems to want to be on one end of the extreme or the other, which is why it seems you're working with black and white. But I work in the grey here. Automation is great and fine for some things that tools have been created for and either create standardization or complete tasks that hardly anyone would be able to do on their own. These are thing like what xLODGen, DynDOLOD, etc. do for us. What else would you like me to defined?
   I don't believe that mod installs or patching should be automated. They may get you to a point, but I've never used any of them without running into some sort of issue (outdated mods, removed mods, bugged mods in the mix, incomplete or outright wrong conflict resolution, etc.). Z put it very well that there is too much inconsistency in these areas to have a consistent outcome. Not to mention the amount of shear maintenance! Have to keep track of and update for insignificant mod updates because something tiny updated and you now have to rebuilt your automation back-end and reupload it for users. Then there is the loss of experience because once an issue arises, the users is just left dumbfaced as to what to do to fix there problem. Why? Because they've not learned how. They skipped all that and then want to complain and wine about it on support forums and to authors; fully expecting a hand-holding experience because that's all they've been taught by automation. No one talks about the costs, the fallout, of automation and who has to deal with it. It's those of the community managing support forums and authors who've already spent a ton of their time to provide users all the information they need, yet are being bombarded by these "privileged" and often (not always) self-entitled users. Then they have users, such as yourself, how what to praise automation to the roof top, which is all good and fine, but condemn the opposing side when they want to speak out about their experience. Is it a wonder there are those of us out there (and there will be more in time), who want nothing to do with some of the automation being offered as it's creating nothing but issues that are being offloaded to authors and others?
5. Broad and sweeping generalization based on my experiences with this group of users, yes. What better teacher is there than time and experience? Again you are asking for data analysis for which there is none (for either side of the debate here). Please, do explain what 'unacceptable behavior' you are referring to.

  On 8/25/2022 at 3:33 AM, theblackman said:

Mischaracterising and casually dismissing my legitimate criticism of your views as a 'difference of opinion' given the clear and compelling deficiencies I've identified and further compounding it by encouraging me to step away for a moment only shows that you seem to be unable to grasp how precarious the foundation is on which you've built your shaky thesis.

#1 above on its own should be enough for you to reconsider your worldview.

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I didn't dismiss. I redirected because I felt you were unnecessarily coming in hot, cocked and loaded to do battle when I was simply stating my opinion and stance on the subject. You're not going to see any mod list automation from me. Period. The end. However, I seemed to have struck a nerve and should reconsider the entirety of my worldview based on the fact that I don't think mod installation should be automated.
Do you hear yourself? You are the only one trying to turn my opinion into a thesis.  Please ensure you credit me in the footnotes (joke).

  On 8/25/2022 at 3:33 AM, theblackman said:

Did you notice that nothing in your reply to me makes your opinion any more convincing, you provide no definitions, no evidence, but there does seem to be a lot of evasiveness.

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I'm gathering up a lot of titles (deficient, evasive, wrong-headed...)!  Yet here I am. Still engaging. Add glutton to the list. Glutton for punishment! Haha!
Did you notice you still appear to come in hot and load.  I'm not battling this out, but I will discuss the subject and why I believe the way I do. I prefer a more open discussion format without all the jabs.

  On 8/25/2022 at 3:33 AM, theblackman said:

Here and in the other thread I've provided direct rebuttal to many of the points you made.  That means I had to read and understand the points you made.  Clearly I could not have done that if I was unable to consider your perspective.  Accusations like this are clearly untrue so why bother to make them?  I'm surprised at you.

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As, I am surprise at you, sir.  If you truly understand my point of view and I've told you that I understand yours, then what is all this about? Why is this hitting so hard for you? We understand one another and neither us is wrong. We simply have different experiences and different opinions/views from that. To keep pushing like this would be to just keep any drama rolling or is there no middle ground for you? Lets discuss the why and how of our views without the need to try to "win" anyone to one side or the other. That shouldn't be the purpose of any of this discussion. If that result from the discussion, then so be it, but shouldn't be considered the goal, which you seem to be trying to make it. If we can readjust to this middle ground, I thing we can all discuss the subject much more progressively. Who knows, you might just present something I hadn't thought of yet. 

  On 8/25/2022 at 3:33 AM, theblackman said:

To avoid any further misinterpretations or mischaracterisations, let me make my position abundantly clear to you:

Stop believing in and promulgating BS, particularly on a forum where you have some considerable influence, just because it suits your point of view and then hiding behind a 'it's just an opinion' shield when someone challenges you on the claims you made in order to try justify why you hold that opinion.

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There's really no reply to this other than you have completely missed the mark due to far too many assumptions. What you call BS, may be a reality for others. It's very presumptuous of you to think you know me anything beyond the words on this screen to be able to make such a bold assessments of me and my actions. We haven't connect like that on any projects or level of interaction.

Again, your 'challenges' assume what I said were facts when they were opinions. Most of this back and forth is due to that, it seems. At this point, you are the one twisting things, sir, not me. I have been trying to correct you without outright correcting you within two large posts now, but if that's not clear, it should be now. Not fact. Opinion. So I'm very plainly stating the parts of that post you have issues with were opinions. Nothing more. Let us move on and really discuss.
 

Admin Mode
I will start reporting your personal jabs and let the other staff determine if there is enough to pass out a warning on them. This removes any of my own bias from the moderation and this is what we do when any staff is evolve. That staff is not involved in the moderation. I've only been taking the comments because it's me and it's you, but please don't push it. Now that is me being bias towards you and I've made it public that I was okay with the cleverly worded jabs. However, I wish to move past it at this point and simply discuss the topic. I do not want to shut down any replies you may have to this post so feel free to do so, even if it's a bit personal and not really on the subject. Say your peace, in other words.

[Greg]

I think it's time we call a truce and have everyone back away from this topic.  This is getting out of hand and continuing to go downhill.

[theblackman]

  Quote

We humans are composed of personalities that fall within a range of positive to negative, and fortunately, the majority tend to lean towards the more positive side. Unfortunately, there is a minority that leans more negative --not necessarily pessimistic, but more truly negative. While these individuals are not necessarily "bad" individuals, they can be a damper to the majority. Like a wild yeast, these individuals can have a tendency to sour an otherwise perfectly good batch of mead.

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  On 1/1/2022 at 5:55 PM, TechAngel85 said:

I will likely ignore them because we just keep dumbing down the modding process.

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  On 8/25/2022 at 9:39 PM, TechAngel85 said:

1. Broad and sweeping generalization based on my experiences with this group of users, yes. What better teacher is there than time and experience?

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  On 11/7/2020 at 6:34 PM, TechAngel85 said:

Why? Seamingly for no other reason than it's easier and faster...translation...lazier.

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  Quote

It is expected that any information added to The Wiki or The Forums is clearly cited, where applicable, as many users do not appreciate unverifiable speculation, unless it is plainly stated as such.

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  On 8/25/2022 at 9:39 PM, TechAngel85 said:

1. Why does a personal opinion need to be supported by outwardly evidence?

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  Quote

Again, your 'challenges' assume what I said were facts when they were opinions

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[z929669]

  On 8/26/2022 at 9:00 AM, theblackman said:

 

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Your last post seem like an attempt to say something by implication rather than your own statements ... scraping from the Citizenship Guide it would seem.

You are both stating opinions, IMO, and I think my last post sums up your opinions correctly. I don't think there is anything wrong with either opinion, but I can see how some of the statements in Tech's first post on this topic made you bristle for reasons to which I allude in my previous post.

Obviously, you can see how all of your responses to him have an annoyed and somewhat insulting tone.

Feel free to post objectively, but continued beating of this dead horse will only come off as insulting (gentle warning).

[theblackman]

  On 8/26/2022 at 5:31 PM, z929669 said:

Your last post seem like an attempt to say something by implication rather than your own statements ... 

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Because I didn't need to say anything given how obvious it is that some of Tech's comments don't comply with the citizenship guide.

  On 8/26/2022 at 5:31 PM, z929669 said:

 scraping from the Citizenship Guide it would seem.

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So it's OK for you to adopt 'an annoyed and somewhat insulting tone' but admonish me for doing the same.  And by the way, you are reading that tone into my comments.  I am neither annoyed nor am I trying to be insulting.

What's the difference between 'scraping' from the citizenship guide and quoting from it....?

  On 8/26/2022 at 5:31 PM, z929669 said:

Feel free to post objectively, but continued beating of this dead horse will only come off as insulting (gentle warning).

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I did post objectively - from the citizenship guide. I even didn't say anything in order to be as objective as possible. You took issue with that and accused me of scraping - an accusation you provided no proof for, not to mention it being a fairly uncharitable take (the CG encourages contributing in a manner of good spirit).

  On 8/26/2022 at 5:31 PM, z929669 said:

You are both stating opinions, IMO, and I think my last post sums up your opinions correctly.

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I don't think it does - it misses the points I made about the deficiencies in Tech's opinion, reasons for which I either provided objective reasons or made logical statements in support of.

You're right that we're both stating opinions, but nowhere have I made a statement such as 'automation is dumbing down users/the modding process' (paraphrasing) and then provided no actual proof or objective reason to support it.

I'd also like to address the accusations of personal attacks.

As an example, I've used the term 'wrong-headed' to describe the Tech's behaviour of making broad generalisations about and assigning value-laden labels (e.g. lazy) onto a huge, diverse group of people in order to justify holding and promoting that opinion.  Use of that term is not a personal attack - it is a word that succinctly describes behaviour that could be deemed hurtful and offensive to some members of that group.  Further, given the industry that Tech claims to work in, he should be only too aware of how wrong-headed that behaviour is.

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From your response it seems to me that admins can ignore the content of the citizenship guide because people who show how they aren't complying with it get threatened.

That's a healthy community.....

Edited August 26, 2022 by theblackman

[z929669]

  On 8/26/2022 at 6:30 PM, theblackman said:

So it's OK for you to adopt 'an annoyed and somewhat insulting tone' but admonish me for doing the same.  And by the way, you are reading that tone into my comments.  I am neither annoyed nor am I trying to be insulting.

From your response it seems to me that admins can ignore the content of the citizenship guide because people who show how they aren't complying with it get threatened.

That's a healthy community.....

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These specific responses are incorrect and unnecessarily argumentative and sarcastic (which is itself unhelpful and indicative of annoyance). It seems to me that you have trouble acquiescing or in any inkling of a way admitting any fault or even the slightest acknowledgement that any of your previous statements could be --on their face-- interpreted as hostile.

I adopted no such "annoyed and somewhat insulting tone" with you. I know, because I was consciously taking care not to.

Giving a bit of quarter goes a long way. Try to be understanding, and really read what you post as if you are not you.