GUIDE Skyrim Special Edition Grass LOD Guide

[DoubleYou]

Discussion topic:
Skyrim Special Edition Grass LOD Guide by STEP
Wiki Link

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This thread is for discussion and improvement of Skyrim Special Edition Grass LOD Guide on the wiki.

[z929669]

I have found that grass density of 45-50 makes for better LOD transitions at very minimal performance cost.

[DoubleYou]

On 11/29/2021 at 11:51 AM, z929669 said:

I have found that grass density of 45-50 makes for better LOD transitions at very minimal performance cost.

I used your grass brightness values and density of 50, and it looks quite good with the ENB.

[z929669]

1 hour ago, DoubleYou said:

I used your grass brightness values and density of 50, and it looks quite good with the ENB.

I haven't been messing with grass LOD for a while now. Glad you agree.

Did you get decent performance? SSE FPS Stabilizer active?

[DoubleYou]

I just generated today, so I'll monitor the performance. Doubt it has much of a hit.

[Wolvyreen]

From what I can see and have learned is that this guide works only for SSE and not SAE.

SAE uses a dll file called bink2w64.dll and no longer binkw64.dll.  Note without the 2 in the name.

I realise this guide is specifically for SSE but because SAE is here, people are in need of an SAE guide as well so the guide advises you to install the .Net Script Framwork which relies on the DLL Plugin loader mod.  The DLL plugin loader mod tells you to rename binkw64.dll and not bink2w64.dll so the mod has not been updated for SAE.

So logically it would mean that we cannot generate the precached grass for SAE as yet until the DLL plugin loader mod is updated.

I am very willing to be corrected if I am wrong because I just want to get my game working with grass everywhere.

Edited January 22, 2022 by Wolvyreen

[Mousetick]

16 minutes ago, Wolvyreen said:

So logically it would mean that we cannot generate the precached grass for SAE as yet until the DLL plugin loader mod is update.

I am very willing to be corrected if I am wrong because I just want to get my game working with grass everywhere.

There is a workaround which allows you to use the NGIO grass cache with SAE, if you have an existing one from SSE and your SAE load order is unchanged grass-wise compared to SSE. If you don't have an existing NGIO grass cache from SSE, you need to have access to SSE to generate it in the first place, then use the workaround to migrate it to SAE. See the below links for more info.

Nexus: Grass Cache Fixes

STEP: Grass Cache Fixes (by DoubleYouC)

[Wolvyreen]

56 minutes ago, Mousetick said:

There is a workaround which allows you to use the NGIO grass cache with SAE, if you have an existing one from SSE and your SAE load order is unchanged grass-wise compared to SSE. If you don't have an existing NGIO grass cache from SSE, you need to have access to SSE to generate it in the first place, then use the workaround to migrate it to SAE. See the below links for more info.

Nexus: Grass Cache Fixes

STEP: Grass Cache Fixes (by DoubleYouC)

Thanks @Mousetick. but with the introduction of SAE and some new mods, my load order has changed.  therefore I would need to downgrade skyrim, generate the grass and upgrade skyrim again.

It's just not worth it.  I'll have to do without the grass until the mods are updated.

[z929669]

I link to this guide frequently, so I updated it to reflect the current GUI and recommendations and also noted that AE is not supported at this time.

[z929669]

Guide updated with some draft GCF instructions.

[DoubleYou]

I have made some edits.

It would be good to expand what is now Step 5 to outline the actual steps for doing this with a Step build. Preferably, instruct users to Copy their Skyrim folder, downgrade it, make the needed changes to SSE Engine Fixes, SKSE, etc. Do note that while AE users should precache with the 1.5.97.0 executable and Skyrim - Interface.bsa, they should use the plugins (such as Skyrim.esm) from the AE edition, as it includes landscape edits. Then outline the SKSE plugins that should be disabled for Step. Also should provide a systematic way to do this in Mod Organizer. Perhaps advise users to copy their profile to a new one for this step to ensure that their base profile remains intact.

Another good method would be to set this up using Root Builder, but now we're talking more advanced setup.

[Mousetick]

15 hours ago, z929669 said:

Additionally, I'm not sure about the advice "DO NOT ACTIVATE YET".

It's wrong but not critical. The biggest mistake is to never tell to activate it at any point of the process.

That guide should no longer be prominently featured as a sticky post on GCF's comments, IMHO. I understand @DoubleYou used it as a stop-gap while the STEP Grass LOD Guide was outdated in regards to Skyrim 1.6.x.

The STEP Grass LOD Guide has been updated a little to account for 1.6.x and GCF usage, but it's still not up to snuff, it's misleading and incomplete in some places. 

Honestly the whole situation is a bit of a mess, and it's not helping the community. The main issue I see is that generating the grass cache, and generating grass LODs have somehow become conflated into one gigantic, confusing and error-prone process. These are 2 distinct processes, one depending on the other. The grass cache, as an entity, exists and is useful by itself, whether grass LODs are generated or not. Generating the grass is done using Skyrim 1.5.97, while using it (in-game as regular grass and/or for grass LOD generation) is done - most likely - using Skyrim 1.6.x.

1. Process 1: Generate and set up grass cache with NGIO and GCF.
2. Process 2: Generate and set up grass LODs with previously created cache, GCF and DynDOLOD.

At the end of Process 1, the grass cache can and should be used by the game without NGIO, whether grass LODs will be generated or not. This should actually be a prerequisite before even attempting to proceed to Process 2. The grass cache should be checked in-game to verify it looks and works ok.

The current mix-up of processes is akin to explaining how to install a tree mod in order to generate tree LODs and then discarding/ignoring the tree mod afterwards (exaggerated analogy for effect).

The decoupling of processes further makes sense considering that 3rd-party pre-generated grass caches are available online for specific Collections/Wabbajack load orders, in which case Process 1 doesn't apply.

[z929669]

8 hours ago, Mousetick said:

It's wrong but not critical. The biggest mistake is to never tell to activate it at any point of the process.

That guide should no longer be prominently featured as a sticky post on GCF's comments, IMHO. I understand @DoubleYou used it as a stop-gap while the STEP Grass LOD Guide was outdated in regards to Skyrim 1.6.x.

The STEP Grass LOD Guide has been updated a little to account for 1.6.x and GCF usage, but it's still not up to snuff, it's misleading and incomplete in some places. 

Honestly the whole situation is a bit of a mess, and it's not helping the community. The main issue I see is that generating the grass cache, and generating grass LODs have somehow become conflated into one gigantic, confusing and error-prone process. These are 2 distinct processes, one depending on the other. The grass cache, as an entity, exists and is useful by itself, whether grass LODs are generated or not. Generating the grass is done using Skyrim 1.5.97, while using it (in-game as regular grass and/or for grass LOD generation) is done - most likely - using Skyrim 1.6.x.

1. Process 1: Generate and set up grass cache with NGIO and GCF.
2. Process 2: Generate and set up grass LODs with previously created cache, GCF and DynDOLOD.

At the end of Process 1, the grass cache can and should be used by the game without NGIO, whether grass LODs will be generated or not. This should actually be a prerequisite before even attempting to proceed to Process 2. The grass cache should be checked in-game to verify it looks and works ok.

The current mix-up of processes is akin to explaining how to install a tree mod in order to generate tree LODs and then discarding/ignoring the tree mod afterwards (exaggerated analogy for effect).

The decoupling of processes further makes sense considering that 3rd-party pre-generated grass caches are available online for specific Collections/Wabbajack load orders, in which case Process 1 doesn't apply.

I agree that our guide would benefit from the distinction and needs much more work to more intuitively convey the purposes and processes. It's current format is disjointed and parsing into Process1/2 is definitely the way to go. The only inhibitor is time. You are welcome to contribute as well at any level if you are inclined or want to see movement sooner rather than later.

While I agree that the guide mentioned and our own guide aren't optimized and lack clarity/flow in specific areas, I don't agree that neither is helping the community. They are fairly complementary, and each has good context about relevant tools and process that would otherwise be much more disjointed and limited to GCF Description/Posts and the difficult-to-interpret and allusive DynDOLOD doc or highly use-case-specific forum posts.

It's been on our to-do list for a while and gets inadequate attention here and there. I point to it because I think it's required background reading and consolidates all relevant existing references with links. It's the best and most comprehensive guide I'm aware of at present, and it beats reiterating fundamentals in posts over and over again.

[Mousetick]

1 hour ago, z929669 said:

While I agree that the guide mentioned and our own guide aren't optimized and lack clarity/flow in specific areas, I don't agree that neither is helping the community.

They're not helping because they're incorrect, misleading or wasteful. They're confusing because they mix different concepts, procedures and tools together in a single overly long and complicated process. Some of these concepts are outdated or irrelevant when GCF is used and NGIO is no longer used in-game. It's very hard for users to understand cause > effect, role or dependency relationships with such convoluted and unstructured descriptions, making it impossible to troubleshoot when something goes wrong. It's just one big nebulous blob.

Case in point: This topic's OP believed the grass cache was only used for grass LODs, not for full grass. I'm not surprised. That's precisely the kind of confusion the current guides induce.

The-Animonculory guide in particular shows the author doesn't really understand how NGIO precaching or GCF truly works (DO NOT ACTIVATE YET!), and is often parroting bits of advice from different sources, some copy-pasted from the (outdated) STEP Grass LOD Guide. 

For example, some fluff can be eliminated from either guide by first removing details and instructions pertaining to NGIO in-game rendering, which are completely irrelevant when NGIO is used only for precaching. Another example, asking users to edit Skyrim.ini [Grass] settings, which are then overridden by GCF's own INI, is useless and misleading.

The only correct "grass cache" guide, from my perspective, is the very succinct Usage section of the GCF mod page, which assumes an already existing NGIO grass cache (generated separately), and makes Grass LODs (using DynDOLOD) optional. It's fairly straightforward, and is exactly the same for both Skyrim 1.5.97 or 1.6.x. It's only concerned with NGIO grass cache usage, either for full grass, or for LODs, or both.

• NGIO grass cache generation is left as an exercise to the user. Arguably the more complicated and delicate part, it deserves its own separate guide, without any consideration for LODs generation, as no consideration is necessary whatsoever.
• Alternatively the user can use a 3rd-party pre-generated cache for a specific load order or modlist (assuming it matches "perfectly").
• The STEP Grass LOD guide could be trimmed down to only the LOD generation part with DynDOLOD, using an already existing NGIO grass cache configured with GCF as a requirement.

Apologies for the ramble.

[DoubleYou]

I think the important thing to understand here is that usage of NGIO and grass LOD are extremely advanced modding concepts that most users are not going to perform because it is time-consuming and difficult. Ultimately the best solution would be to create an application to automate the process, and would be far easier to do than to maintain documentation for the many intricacies involved with the grass cache and LOD. The information is out there for the advanced modders who want to learn how it all works, but I must say that trying to make a beginner friendly guide for this seems like a lost cause IMHO. There are simply way too many moving parts.

All the information on the Grass LOD guide is relevant to me, especially the documentation on what the NGIO settings do and how they behave.