Compatibility Versus Visuals

[Guest]

Hi everyone.

 

Well, I'm VERY slowly working on WATER again and have already added many additional files and fixes to the game, as well as just totally re-imagining everything about everything pretty much.

 

Anyway, I need thoughts on whether I should stick with not editing the world again, or say this time, actually making the lakes and ponds not use ocean water. Previously, I decided against have slightly flatter water in lakes and ponds becuase people were commenting they prefer compatibility. But my question is... Does anyone really care? Are slightly better graphics actually more important here or not (especially for the average user)?

 

I have recently made a great looking ocean water with a nice churn, and on the lakes and ponds it looks pretty nice too. It also hides to bad LOD reflections this game has a lot better than any water that would be flatter. Not replacing this water also halts the distant LOD bug where calmer water would revert to ocean water anyway (as there is only one LOD water per world).

 

So, I want everything to look fantastic this time, but while it may seem like I am leaning to keep things simple, I am honestly divided. I'd like some thoughts if you can please! I am ready to do either.

 

P.S. Any water related fixes you'd like to see? Anything neglected?

[TechAngel85]

Why not provide the best of both if you are divided? Keep the big lakes as the ocean water to help avoid the LOD bug, but edit the smaller bodies like ponds.

 

In my honest opinion, I don't feel compatibility is really an issue anymore. We don't see as many posts on the support forums about patching and mod compatibility as we used to. That tells me that either more users are learning and getting used to patching their games or more mod authors are providing patches.

 

My feelings on the LOD bug is that it's never really bothered me that much. You tend to ignore it after several levels of playing.

[hishutup]

Wouldn't a direct water texture replacer would be the simplest thing and would be the first step?

Assuming that is the first step and it is complete, I don't think anyone would argue if you release it as a water replacer.

 

If you feel like you want to reinvent the water around the world then I would by no means object. I do like the diversity of the various water mods around the nexus. I've even picked up the old W.A.T.E.R in my last partial(*sigh*) playthrough, as pure waters isn't all that great in my opinion.

When it comes to compatibility, I don't see there being any really issue as long as you don't modify the landscape/terrian. If you add, remove, replace rocks or other various environment object, they are fairly easy to patch(like RWT's edits) and game breaking conflicts are pretty rare. 

The only other "water" mod that really causes issues with other mods is Enhanced Wetness and Puddles because it edits the landscape.

 

I do like how Pure Waters - Waterfalls edits the waterfalls to make them feel like they have more volume and are actually rushing waters but there are some pretty obvious issues where you can see the dry ground underneath.

 

Depending on how far you want to take it, it could be quite unique but if not, I wouldn't mind having another esp-less replacer.

 

Edit: I feel as I misunderstood the post, eh, oh well.

[Guest]

No, both replies are interesting, thanks. One of the main things I didn't think about was what I was saying to you the other day Tech. If they add those flow maps, will this break the worldspace edits? Will this just totally mess up the cell water with those edits? Who knows. But... I still want everything to look awesome and the best it can, which is the dilemma as said.

 

Hish, I am looking to into first making all the texture effects I can look better. This is quite laborious as I am remaking effects no one has even bothered to do before. About 85% of the mod will be remade with brand new HD assets. I won't be including rocks anymore - or things that people can probably do without - but that is just to focus solely on the water.

 

Next up will be finishing the effects and rendering out the dreaded animated splash textures, then onto the esp once that is all done. So yes, as usual with me the water surface comes last becuase the main body of work is actually the effects.

 

So, I am even more confused, but that is fine. Haha! You both have good arguments and are both saying people are better with compatibility. On the other hand, Hish has a good point about getting it out first on a basic level. Tech, what is this blasphemous thinking about having two versions?! Lol, you know how I hate managing that sort of stuff. Question though: How noticible is something like having calmer water in Riften (for example) with RWT? Is it like "That looks freaking so much better" or "Eh, don't notice it much"? Trying to see things from both angles here.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Guest

[hishutup]

No, both replies are interesting, thanks. One of the main things I didn't think about was what I was saying to you the other day Tech. If they add those flow maps, will this break the worldspace edits? Will this just totally mess up the cell water with those edits? Who knows. But... I still want everything to look awesome and the best it can, which is the dilemma as said.

For the most part cell edits are easy to forward. So I wouldn't think that there would be any issue if you add them.

If you want it to look the best that it can, then do that.

Hish, I am looking to into first making all the texture effects I can look better. This is quite laborious as I am remaking effects no one has even bothered to do before. About 85% of the mod will be remade with brand new HD assets. I won't be including rocks anymore - or things that people can probably do without - but that is just to focus solely on the water.

Better effects?

Sign me up.

As for the rocks, I am going to assume you mean something like RWT's wet rocks; I did notice it, but did it add anything?

I don't really have an answer, so one can assume no but I am indecisive.

 

So, I am even more confused, but that is fine. Haha! You both have good arguments and are both saying people are better with compatibility. On the other hand, Hish has a good point about getting it out first on a basic level. Tech, what is this blasphemous thinking about having two versions?! Lol, you know how I hate managing that sort of stuff. Question though: How noticible is something like having calmer water in Riften (for example) with RWT? Is it like "That looks freaking so much better" or "Eh, don't notice it much"? Trying to see things from both angles here.

For most "immersion" mods/effects its not really about what you notice visually but its the overall feel which is something that is hard to describe to someone.

[Guest]

Well there is A LOT of smoke and fire effects used in the water effects, so no one has touched them becuase of that. I'm going to remake these effects and custom path them in the meshes. So on top of general water effects, I have that and also have things like droplets to make. I will do this in a particle effects suite/3D modelling suite and render to textures. So it's a lot more work than just getting a brush and painting stuff; I want everything to be as accurate as possible. That's what I am talking about with effects work anyway (well, bar mesh edits after all that).

 

Okay! I will probably do those edits now you lot have convinced me people won't mind it. Thanks!

 

By the way, I forgot to mention those PW falls look good, but I remember RWT tried that once and there was a lot of downsides to it. Mainly landscaping like you said Hish. I was looking into making the default falls fade on each end becuase currently you have a solid mass that sticks in the ground under the water surface. On the other assets, well RWT uses old WATER files pretty much anyway, so they will closely match.

 

FYI Tech, I'm sure you mentioned a rapid foam problem ages ago. It might be my good memory again or it might be my imagination, but I fixed those square blobs and deformation I'm pretty sure you told me about. Well, I'm certain it might be because of you anyway that I fixed it. So thanks for something you probably can't remember that you brought to my attention. :P

Edited August 23, 2016 by Guest

[TechAngel85]

No, both replies are interesting, thanks. One of the main things I didn't think about was what I was saying to you the other day Tech. If they add those flow maps, will this break the worldspace edits? Will this just totally mess up the cell water with those edits? Who knows.

You answered your question yourself here. "Who knows?" I have no idea what the extent of the changes to the water for SSE are going to be. All I know is there will be "new water shaders". I'm assuming it's going to be similar to FO4's water since it's going to be about the same engine running it.

 

Tech, what is this blasphemous thinking about having two versions?! Question though: How noticible is something like having calmer water in Riften (for example) with RWT? Is it like "That looks freaking so much better" or "Eh, don't notice it much"?

No, no. Not two versions. Just one version with world edits to only specific areas. Oceans and Lake can have the same water. Ponds, streams, puddles, rivers, etc would have their own water. This way you still avoid the LOD bug on the big lakes, but the smaller bodies of water are more custom.

 

Question though: How noticible is something like having calmer water in Riften (for example) with RWT? Is it like "That looks freaking so much better" or "Eh, don't notice it much"?

For me it's about immersion and realism. Without arguing the points of realism in a fantasy game, we pull our ideas of how things should work and look from real life. Water in a game should look and act like water in real life because that is our expectation when we see water in a game. Achieving this turns into "it's not what you notice, but rather "it's what you don't notice".

 

RWT's Riften edit is the perfect example of this type of thing. Do I notice it? No, not really. But that's kind of the point isn't it? The water in the canal should have little to no movement in it due to how it's sheltered from the environment besides maybe a small breeze from time to time. That would be our expectation for that body of water due to real life experiences. Therefore, RWT's version of this is believable to the point that you don't really even notice it unless you go looking for it. What this means is that author has done their job of making water "immersive" to the point that players are drawn into their game rather than being distracted by the unnatural looking water. This is what the goal of most texture mods should be, imo. Not to be noticed, but rather to not be noticed.

 

I hope that clears some things up. Clear as mud, I'm sure. ::

 

By the way, I forgot to mention those PW falls look good, but I remember RWT tried that once and there was a lot of downsides to it.

 

FYI Tech, I'm sure you mentioned a rapid foam problem ages ago. It might be my good memory again or it might be my imagination, but I fixed those square blobs and deformation I'm pretty sure you told me about. Well, I'm certain it might be because of you anyway that I fixed it. So thanks for something you probably can't remember that you brought to my attention. :P

No, I do remember something about it. Also, the speed that the water falls looks weird. The water textures make it look like a good amount of water is flowing over them, but the water is falling too slow for that volume of water. It's just one of those distracting things I was talking about above. It's not something that I should notice unless I look for it, but it changes my eye when the camera moves past the effect.

 

I'm glad you mentioned PW waterfalls, because I think they look pretty sweet too. They're probably among the best falls out of all the mods. I just don't care for the calmness of the rest of the waters included. Nor especially for what it does to the shoreline in some weathers (ENBs tends to fix this though).

[Guest]

That is a very good point. Immersion means you don't do a second take, but most people also are ignorant and simply don't care becuase their goal is to get from point a to point b as fast as they can. I think your point really applies to those who like taking the environment in, and an environment mod should focus on that group of people as priority. You have a good idea about leaving lakes and doing ponds, Riften, and marshes. That is so simple yet the best of both worlds! I ask you about the marsh near Solitude though; is that something that could benefit from world edits or not? I'll have to place some rocks or something to keep the seams contained if you think it should be edited. Other marshes have marsh water in them, but from a distance, this may cause a LOD issue as it's quite a large body of water. Just wondering what you think here.

 

Oh, so I'm not imagining things! Luckiliy it is only the one mesh that was borked. Sped up larger waterfalls? I'll have a look, nice idea. :)

[hishutup]

Really, pure water waterfalls has this issue which is immersion breaking to me. The water seems to jump right over the landscape however, from a distance it is awesome.

That is a very good point. Immersion means you don't do a second take, but most people also are ignorant and simply don't care becuase their goal is to get from point a to point b as fast as they can. I think your point really applies to those who like taking the environment in, and an environment mod should focus on that group of people as priority. You have a good idea about leaving lakes and doing ponds, Riften, and marshes. That is so simple yet the best of both worlds! I ask you about the marsh near Solitude though; is that something that could benefit from world edits or not? I'll have to place some rocks or something to keep the seams contained if you think it should be edited. Other marshes have marsh water in them, but from a distance, this may cause a LOD issue as it's quite a large body of water. Just wondering what you think here.

Oh, so I'm not imagining things! Luckiliy it is only the one mesh that was borked. Sped up larger waterfalls? I'll have a look, nice idea. :)

New records like rocks are almost always going to be fine. The issue is usually when author start touching the landscape mesh is when the issues start.

[Kesta]

Some input :

 

As hishy said :

Cell edit to modify only the water type are perfectly fine, and definitely the best option imo. Easy to forward.

Landscapes edits are to be avoided at all cost for compatibility issue. There is no point in modifying it for a water mod anyway.

New rocks/plants and other "goodies" -> I'd avoid them. Not only for the potential (though non-gamebreaking) compatibility-issue, but this is not what I would expect for a water mod. Fall more under the scope of landscape modifications.

 

For the LOD issue about water : Kepp lake illinita's water as "ocean", because this is large so the LOD problem appear. Any other lake/pond can have custom water, they're small enough so that the seam will not be noticeable, the whole water plane being either in the LOD area or in the Loaded-cell area.

[TechAngel85]

I agree with Kesta, the other bodies of water aren't large enough to notice the LOD bug, that includes the marshes. Most of the marsh is so hilly that you can't really see the water LOD anyway. The only other large body of water that you might want to keep as ocean water is the lake at Riften. This one is often covered by fog enough that it can't be seen but during certain weathers, I think I can be. Especially when playing with a weather mod like Vivid Weathers or CoT that is going to put more weather variety in the area. I haven't played much in the Riften area this playthrough, though, so I'll have to check it out some more to see if the LOD bug is present there.

[Guest]

Ok noted, thanks guys.

 

I was just generally asking about the marsh nearest Solitude, so I guess my question was confused for solely asking about placements. I can probably get away without any placements anyway if the ocean doesn't meet openly into the marsh. I'm hoping for a small land divide of some sort as I can't remember how the water is placed down there. If it's in a weird state then I'll have to leave it.

 

The Riften lake is pretty huge so I'm most likely going to leave that alone too. I can't even remember where the ponds are bar maybe two. I'll have to interactive map it to jog my memory.