Paid mods are now available on the workshop

[A_Dim_Mismatch]

Why am I not surprised?

Probably because most mods at launch have their fair share of problems?

 

That's one of the biggest strengths of the Nexus format. Mod authors don't generally have pre-release playtesters, and even if they do, there's always unforeseen problems that can emerge. But since nothing costs anything, mods can be uploaded to the Nexus even when they're buggy, and can work as betas while authors obtain feedback and fix their mods for updates and future releases. For the most part, people can install mods and uninstall them without any serious issues if they use Mod Organizer. No one paid anything, so other than a few broken playthroughs, that's it. But when money factors in? That can be a big problem.

 

But most people on the Workshop don't use MO. So not only are they paying, they're risking having broken saves too.

 

[mikegray]

 

But most people on the Workshop don't use MO. So not only are they paying, they're risking having broken saves too.

 

I'm looking at some compatibility issues with Purity - one of the mods I bought - so I've been reading the comment section there (and asking a few questions myself.)

 

My impression is that a lot of Laast's customers don't have a clue what they are doing. And that concerns me. If this were Nexus, there would be a community of old hands there to pitch in. Yeah, some of them would be snarky, but the newbies would end up getting the information they need. In this new world ... well ... maybe not so much. Cause, it's like ... the dev's job to solve everyone's problems? And once they start busting their savegames with ill-advised mod combos and come back to scream at him about it ... well, I don't think the dev's situation is going to be much fun at all.

[A_Dim_Mismatch]

I'm looking at some compatibility issues with Purity - one of the mods I bought - so I've been reading the comment section there (and asking a few questions myself.)

 

My impression is that a lot of Laast's customers don't have a clue what they are doing. And that concerns me. If this were Nexus, there would be a community of old hands there to pitch in. Yeah, some of them would be snarky, but the newbies would end up getting the information they need. In this new world ... well ... maybe not so much. Cause, it's like ... the dev's job to solve everyone's problems? And once they start busting their savegames with ill-advised mod combos and come back to scream at him about it ... well, I don't think the dev's situation is going to be much fun at all.

That points to another problem with selling on the Workshop. A great deal of people downloading are going to be novices who know next to nothing about effectively using mods and maintaining load orders and mod managers, so they're going to experience far more issues than the Nexus crowd would. More issues = more bad ratings and negative comments, and since people are paying for these instead of downloading for free, they're going to be much more likely to be unhappy if things do not work out as they anticipate.

[GSDFan]

Mikegray, so what you are saying if you pay for the mod you get access to the comments. At the moment I get a whops message when I try to view comments or am I doing something wrong?

 

Edit: Must have been an OS / browser interaction. Rebooted and I can read the comments now.

[Octopuss]

Another thing came to my mind. With a mod (or rather, a specific version) being exclusively on the Workshop, good luck gathering ANY feedback in order to fix bugs. The comments over there are absolutely useless, and even if 90% of them weren't about insults and death threats, the people there are mostly completely clueless and don't know much if anything about modding. Also, the whole format is totally unseless for any sort of dialogue. It's a bloody dead end even if there wasn't any money drama.

[Saerileth]

I agree with most of the things that have been said about the whole thing here (we're getting to the point where pretty much every argument has been made several times over)... Hating mod authors that "sell out" is wrong, harassing and abusing them is even worse. Pirated and stolen content is an issue, even more so for modder's resources. The Steam workshop is ill equipped for modding in general, and catastrophically unsuited to selling them - regardless of what your ideology is concerning paid mods in general, the way the system is implemented at the moment it is bound to fail. It does not work this way, as mikegray demonstrated so generously by investing his time and money (I have the utmost respect for you by the way, most of us judge the system without actually trying it, so you are an invaluable source of information).

 

One thing I object to though is the repeated claim that "they should have just made a donation option". The notion that that would fix everything, allow mod authors to get paid for their hard work and make everyone else happy - well consider this: there have been donation buttons on Nexus for quite some time now, and I've spoken to enough people to know that the amount of money most authors received over the years amounts to almost zip. Boris Vorontsov also accepts donations on his ENB page (he even publicly thanks every donator), and yet he nearly went bankrupt a few months ago due to family health issues. Now I realise that people can't afford to donate big sums of money, and let me assure you that no author would ever be offended by a small donation - every little bit helps! It's not so much the size of the individual donations, but the amount of donations made that is the problem. And it tells me that donations would not help the situation at all.

 

People do not spend money on something when they don't have to. Or at least, very, very few of them do. That is just human nature. I'd say the one good thing that could have come from this whole mess is that maybe people donate a lot more now just to spite Valve - but honestly, I'll believe that when I see it.

 

I also find it curious how often I read that "Valve/Bethesda divided a formerly united community". That is only partially true. I admire the STEP forums and have only ever been treated with the utmost courtesy here, but things were not so pretty over at the Nexus ever since the blocking function was introduced (and there was a reason it was introduced in the first place). And I am told things were much, much worse on the Steam Workshop comments even when all those mods were free, which is unsurprising given those forums are completely unmoderated.

 

My point is, there has been a growing rift between an immature and self-entitled userbase, and mod authors that grow increasingly frustrated and cranky as a result. The have been multiple instances of modders leaving the community temporarily or for good because of this. In many ways, this is just the spark that a huge tinderbox of resentment needed to go "boom!". I'm not saying Valve didn't cause this entire mess in the first place, they still messed up big time, but sugar-coating and idolizing the state of our community is not helpful. We're all human.

[EssArrBee]

I'd also like to ask who exactly is supposed to make the money off of mods? Because right now the only people NOT making money are the mod authors. (Well, until the Workshop changed three days ago.)

 

Youtube, Twitch, Patreon are all monetized streams or videos. They use mods to either showcase, review, or in their let's plays. They make money off of mods. I don't know if they give kickbacks to the modders for mods they use, I know of one channel that will start. Some of those video producers even do that as their job, so they are making some decent cash. 

 

The sites make money for hosting through premium memberships and ad revenue. Robin Scott isn't living in a mansion AFAIK, but I bet he makes a decent living, probably deserves to for his service. I'm sure Moddb or other big sites make some money as well.

 

Retailers/publishers/developers all make money from the people that only bought the game to mod it. I wouldn't have bought Skyrim on PC if it wasn't moddable. Actually, I do that with a lot of games. I wait to buy it on PC until a bunch of mods come out, then pick it up on a Steam/GOG/Humble Bundles... sale.

 

As some mod authors have already stated, donations aren't going to cut it. Most of them will never see a penny.

 

So, the entire community that facilitates the modding community is making money from the devs to the sites to the youtubers and the actual content creators are marooned on some island where they aren't allow to make money. It's absolutely ridiculous.

 

There has to be a better way to get some money into the hands of the content providers if others are making money off their work, right? 

[Marthenil]

In an ideal world, the best kind of monetization a mod could get would be through ads. Pretty much the same way Youtubers make money off of ads.

 

Even if that meant having to watch 30 second ads before downloading a mod.

 

This way, you're still not using money as motivation (hint: Money is not a good motivation for creative projects) and you still get some money off of it.

 

 

I don't think the nexus can pull it off though.

[cstarkey42]

Hey all.  I want to quickly say "thanks" for such a well thought out, informative and, most important of all, civil discussion in regards to the paywall.  I've spent the last couple of days reading this and considering all of the points made, which was a very welcome change from trying to keep up with the flow of events on the nexus mod's posts, which had become quite a disheartening and embarrassing display of human nature at its worst.

 

Honestly, I can't help but feel torn either way on the issue.  Yes, the Steam workshop is horribly implemented, with numerous problems, but that doesn't seem to deal with the main point of whether or not mod author's should be able to charge for their mods.  And while many of the mods being offered on the workshop are of terrible quality that alone doesn't seem to be an argument against the paywall.  Those mods will surely be overlooked and, eventually, forced so far down the list that they will barely make any money, if any at all.  That's how markets work and that's what we're witnessing now.  Really great mods, such as Wet and Cold and Frostfall (RIP?!?!  Say it ain't so... ), however, do seem to add such a huge amount to gameplay and system mechanics that it seems unfair for the author to spend countless hours on them and be condemned if they so much think of charging for their work.  Yes, there is the "donation" button but, as anyone who has been following this forum or listening to the authors can tell you, that system is seriously broken and under-utilized.  Worst yet, if the numbers are to be believed, too many people point to this system as the solution, implying that they have donated before, when the truth is most have not.  Instead the battle cry is the pathetic "unendorsed!".

 

Ironically enough it is the authors who proclaim their mods as always being free that are further complicating matters.  Please follow me here before you freak out:  I love their dedication and commitment to what they love to do and, obviously ( I hope ) do not think they are bad for offering their time and energy for free to the community.  My point is that their love and dedication shouldn't be used against authors who also share their love and dedication but would also like to make a career out of it, if not, at least, a simple part time job.  Both parties are in the right and that paradox is a huge part of the problem.  We don't think less of Michelangelo because Banksy is willing to put his work on every street corner for free.

 

My point isn't to rehash what we all know but it's to point out that this discussion has run its course.  STEP is the premier league, the best modders, both authors and users, and it's time for solutions.  Pretending that civil unrest is going to change the course is futility at its best.  We all understand both sides and what is really needed now is the best compromise that can be devised.  Reading through this two things jumped out at me:  Keith's economic analysis and the idea of tying endorsements to a donation.

 

I don't fault Valve.  As Chesko pointed out, they provide the infastructure and the marketing and certainly deserve a cut.  Bethesda, however...well, it seems insane to me that they can now be motivated to release an unfinished/subpar game and not only rely on the modders to fix/improve the game but earn a cut as well.  The community really should be focusing their energy on taking care of the authors and paying for the infastructure, while protecting against outright exploitation.

 

As I see it, it's the Nexus that needs to change.  Maybe tying donations to endorsements isn't the best solution but, perhaps, displaying a "endorsement and donated" counter is at least a step in the right direction.  First, it would provide a statistic people can actually point to when they cite donations as the solution, or, as has unfortunately more often been the case, the cause of the paywall.  Additionally it would provide a more substantive measure of a mods popularity.  Sure, it has a lot of endorsements but how many people have actually donated to it, really proving its worth?  Now we would know.  Finally it removes the small mental block of donating:  I'll get to it later,  Paypal is going to take a large cut, I can't really afford to throw what seems like a fair amount, say $5, to every mod I love, etc...  

 

Say what you will about the Steam Wallet a form of it would be great on the Nexus.  Say I could add $20 to my Nexus account.  Paypal would take their cut, reducing the problem of "micro" transactions being further minimized by Paypal.  Then I could easily endorse and donate to mods as I see fit.  Maybe I feel Frostfall is worth $1 and Footprints, as great as it is, is worth $0.25.  Alone a quarter seems terrible but, we have to be honest, a small donation is better than nothing and, in comparison to the price of the game is actually a fair deal.  This is especially true if others are motivated to pursue this solution as well.  What went from maybe a couple donations of a few dollars is now several hundred, if not thousands, of ten cent and 25 cent donations.  It could, possibly, add up very quickly.  Throw in the occasional multi-dollar donation and we seem to be headed towards a more stable and long-term solution.

 

I really didn't want to make this long of a post so I'm going to stop here.  My goal is simply to get the discussion moving towards looking for solutions instead of lamenting the inevitable.  We can either try to get out in front of the changes we are seeing or we can stand by and do nothing.  Either way, things are going to change, whether we like it or not.  It is my sincere hope that this group, a group of professionals and enthusiasts, can find a solution that works for everyone and, perhaps, moves modding to a level we've never seen before or dared to even imagine.

 

Thanks.

[Marthenil]

One thing I would love to get answered: 

 

Why is this suddenly an issue? 

I mean, surely making mods you love is better than flipping burgers. 

 

But if the money is not what motivated you in the first place, why is it an issue now? 

[EssArrBee]

One thing I would love to get answered: 

 

Why is this suddenly an issue? 

I mean, surely making mods you love is better than flipping burgers. 

 

But if the money is not what motivated you in the first place, why is it an issue now? 

Here's what Gaben had to say about it:

 

 

About half of Valve came straight out of the MOD world. John Cook and Robin Walker made Team Fortress as a Quake mod. Ice frog made DOTA as a Warcraft 3 mod. Dave Riller and Dario Casali we Doom and Quake mappers. John Guthrie and Steve Bond came to Valve because John Carmack thought they were doing the best Quake C development. All of them were liberated to just do game development once they started getting paid. Working at Waffle House does not help you make a better game.

I'm going to also add this in since my stance on the issue is different now that I've really looked closely at the whole thing.

 

 

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. - Voltaire

I'm going to amend that a bit.

 

 

I do not agree with you selling mods, but I'll defend to the death your right to do so. - Voltaire - SRB

I hate any any situation where someone doesn't have control over the content they produce. The internet has tricked us into believing that somehow content creators don't deserve to get paid because their work isn't tangible. 

 

I'd also say that the Steam Workshop is horrible, but it only brings back memories of the absolute nightmare that was the nexus about 5 years ago. You guys may not try to remember, but that thing was not as easy as pushing the big green button and off it goes to the mod manager. Give Steam some time to make things better. Remember how bad Steam was when it came out? All the "end of gaming" as we know it stuff was going on, like is happening with modding right now. Everything ended up being just fine.

[Marthenil]

I definitely agree with what you said SRB. I just think there's more than a tad of hypocrisy on both sides (entitled mod users, some mod authors).

[Ganda]

I'd also say that the Steam Workshop is horrible, but it only brings back memories of the absolute nightmare that was the nexus about 5 years ago. You guys may not try to remember, but that thing was not as easy as pushing the big green button and off it goes to the mod manager. Give Steam some time to make things better. Remember how bad Steam was when it came out? All the "end of gaming" as we know it stuff was going on, like is happening with modding right now. Everything ended up being just fine.

After all of this, I agree (sort of). The point people are raising here is that since so little was thought about for this launch, are we to believe they'll improve later (when the SW has remained poop sine it's launch)

 

Also, about the shadowscale armour, I have to say I predicted that in the IRC xD

[EssArrBee]

Also, about the shadowscale armour, I have to say I predicted that in the IRC xD

The Shadowscale armor looks like it was produced by pros who have never had to do anything for a Bethesda game. The artwork, models and textures have screenshots show from 3ds max or maya, but they clearly don't know much about the way Bethesda games work.

[z929669]

The problem about pay-for mods is not that MAs want to get paid for their work, but rather the behavior of MAs and MUs, given this new information about mods being sold as opposed to being given away freely.

 

• Some MAs are pulling their mods off of Nexus to prevent a-holes from stealing them for thier own credit to make $ on Steam.
• Some (many?) MUs are downloading mods like crazy before they are pulled.
• Some MAs are sabotaging their Nexus mods (heard this about SkyUI, but not sure if it is true) or creating different versions on free sites versus Steam (as if mod versioning was not confusing enough already in many cases).
• Some MUs are slandering MAs for opting in to the pay system on Steam.

 

The problem is and will be more related to outright reactive panic by the modding community. It is pandemonium, and it could change everything, albeit unnecessarily. I can't say much for the Beth/Steam implementation or timing either. This is a real mess, IMO, and the blame lies solely on Valve and Bethesda for not implementing this in a more piecemeal or controlled fashion. They should know more about market reaction than they seem to and that they could possibly taint the very opportunity that they are interested in. Very unprofessional at this point. Hope it gets cleaned up fast, but it is a fire drill right now.